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Goosy mare suggestions

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Breeding Problem Mares - Volume 1 » Goosy mare suggestions « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Lori Crihfield
Neonate
Username: Shstables

Post Number: 1
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Friday, May 05, 2006 - 09:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well I have a dilema.
I have two first timers.
My stud has never covered anything before and this mare has only ever had AI. The stud is gentle and was slow and patient or inexperienced. He didn't rush and he really romanced and waited for her to accept him. She swung and planted but when he started to mount there was nothing any one of us could do to hold this mare. She just scooted right out from under him. We gave it a few more tries until it became apparent that this was not working. She has never had a stallion mount her but has been through the whole AI thing a few times. No one expected her to be so "goosy".
I need some suggestions on how to keep this girl still and give her confidence that it is OK for the stud to be up there.
HELP!!
 

Emma
Breeding Stock
Username: Emma

Post Number: 160
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 08:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Lori, we use a breeding crush. It is shaped in a V and slopes down to the back where the stallion mounts so he cant get his feet crushed if the mare trys to move. It is also just a tad bit longer than the mares. It just stops them from trying to escape forward or sidewards and keep us humans at a safe distance. Just a quick explanation in case you don't quiet get how it works. the crush is a simple construction of a thick pine post concreted into the ground for the point of the V, then two metal poles (covered with thick foam) running back at a downwards slope to two more thick pine posts at the open end of the V. The mare goes in the open end of the V, stallion comes in behind and does his job. We have had great success using this crush and the difficult mares have learn't to stand very quickly. It is safe for all involved and takes a day to construct.
 

J.R.Hamilton
Yearling
Username: Cobbreeder

Post Number: 60
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 09:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How about alot of romancing either over the fence or thru the stall grids and then slight sedative for the mare right before she's bred???

NOT enough to knock her down or make her stagger h... just enough to make her dreamy... if given IM ..slow absorption...it might make her less goosey.

Have seen a breeding crush used successfully and have seen a few crashes IN the crush...mare tryed to jump at the last minute because she felt the stallion getting ready to mount. Mare got hung up...stallion still tryed to mount and mare couldn't get up or off the top rail. And the stallion handler had a hard time getting the stallion to back off.
How nervous and jumpy is she???
 

Lori
Neonate
Username: Shstables

Post Number: 2
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 03:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the replies!!

She is a mess.
She is generally a nervous and high strung horse. She is an anglo-arab.

I like the idea of a breeding crush I am just worried about this mare being a nut in there.

She is interested up until the point that he tries to mount. She teases, squats, pees and plants. That tail is up and around. We usually take him towards her shoulder instead of bringing him up to her rump. Then when he moves to the side she get a little jumpy. We make him wait until she appears to settle. Then we finally let him swing to the rump and attempt to mount. She is fine for all of it except the mounting.

He is being an angel for all of this. If we ask him to back off he willingly does it. He will stand and eat grass until she is ready to try again.

I have another very experienced mare who we are breeding to him this year. I may let him test the wters with her instead. At least this first time. Even though it is late-ish in the season. I don't want him to become frustrated. Maybe we can get this mare next heat cycle??

Do you think that will work? As far as tranqs go what should I be looking at? Also is there a way to build in a safety "out" into the breeding crush so that if things go awry we can get everyone out safely? I like the idea of it. I am just not fmailiar with it and worry that my own inexperience with the crush would be a problem.

I welcome any and all suggestions!!
 

Emma
Breeding Stock
Username: Emma

Post Number: 161
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 07:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Lori, I would worry about sedation espeacially with a mare like her. We have had plenty of experiance with the 'goosy' maidens and we have used the crush very succesfully. With sedation, it can make the mare very unsafe to be around simply because if she does panic or react (and she still can if only lightly sedated) she can be very unpredictable and unstable in her movements. Not unlike a drunk person. Only difference is she is 500 kg's ... not 75 - 80kgs. If your stallion is as good as you say you should have no problems getting him out from behind her when he is asked. So if she is attempting to go over the top, get him out before she is over. I also make sure that the point of the V is just above chest level so they really have to get back and up to get over it. Make sure the mares head is over the V so she has trouble getting over the rail and make sure everything is very well padded for the horses protection and DO NOT UNDER ANY UNCERTAIN TERMS GET IN THE CRUSH WITH THE HORSES. If you leave your poles sticking out of the ground 6 ft or so you can then use the poles as leaverage points if needed. Hope this helps. It really is very safe if used correctly.
 

J.R.Hamilton
Yearling
Username: Cobbreeder

Post Number: 61
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Sunday, May 07, 2006 - 08:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have used minimal cocktail of dermos.and or torb.... together ... just enough to get her oozey and still able to stand during mounting and then able to walk away without falling down..as we walk the mares a good 10 minutes in big circles to make sure that semen introduced ( regardless of how) isn't quickly pee'd out ..as many mares after breeding love to do.
IM is slow acting... you wait about an hour or so... IV..it goes right into blood stream and she should be placed where you want to breed her right before she is given tranqs.
Then let her daze out abit before young stallion comes to romance her.

Alot depends on the mare and what she can tolerate for meds... and the other question.... I never use hobbles , but have you tryed a twitch on this mare right as you set her up ? OR should ask if you have ever twitched her before for anything?? What was her behavior like? If it makes her worse...not good.
I have used a slow acting tranq and twitch on mares that I know like to be real teases and frustrate a stallion. Depends on the mare really.

When all this occurs... who is handling who and how much experience do the handlers have?

Last but not least.... if she has shoes on ..get them off. All your young stud needs is a cranky mare playing target practise with his nads.
 

Megan A Brown
Yearling
Username: Fabmeg

Post Number: 81
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, May 08, 2006 - 11:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We use an Ace Xylazine mix(3cc Ace and 1cc Xylazine) on a couple of our QH mares. I usually give it IV but on the worst mare we give it IM. These girls are a little ancey about human interference as they were only pasture breed before we got them. We find that it's just enough to get them a little liquored up. You don't want the mares sedate enough to float their teeth or anything just drunk enough to be in a happy place. We also run a stud chain under the lip on those mares so we can wake them up in a hurry if they decide they are going to lie down or anything else stupid.

I should mention that my mares are really resistant to sedation, so the dosage above is probably high.

(Message edited by FABmeg on May 08, 2006)
 

Peggy
Neonate
Username: Texas_gal

Post Number: 7
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Monday, May 08, 2006 - 08:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I had a mare that sounds just like yours. She would do everything to tell the stallion that she was ready, practically lay down for him. Until his front feet came off of the ground. Then she would kick like crazy. I bred her the first time with breeding hobbles. She still kicked so i shortened them and got her bred. Then the next time i sent her out and he tried tieing her up and twitching her. Well, that did not work. She broke her halter. So he said that he lunged her first and then somehow got her bred. She did not mind AI. It did not matter what was done back there as long as a stallion was not coming up on her. I sold her( the new owner knew about her breeding experiences) and the new owner sent her out to a very experienced breeder. I do not know what they did, but they said that they did not have a problem. I dont think that she stopped kicking, i just think that they had a way to handle it.

A mare like this can really , really hurt a stallion. My stallion went sterile, i am not totaly convinced that it was not her fault. I, at one time thought i would let nature take its course and put them in the pasture together, it did not work. The stallion ended up hating her and would not pay any attention to her even when she was heavy in heat standing at the fence talking to him. He would just walk away from her.

So i am not sure that she is the greatest for a first time stallion learning. His first experience is very important. It will set the tone for the rest of his breeding career.

I would not try without breeding hobbles. I do not think that sedation would have worked with my mare.

I have another mare that was a maiden mare and I bred to a maiden stallion last year. She was a dream. Probably the easiest of all of them. So non-experience doesnt always mean a problem.

good luck with what ever you do.
 

J.R.Hamilton
Yearling
Username: Cobbreeder

Post Number: 62
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Monday, May 08, 2006 - 08:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Megan,

Had to laugh at your descriptions- they are so appropriate...."getting them liquored up and to their happy place"... reminded me of a person trying to overcome fear of flying.
Didn't even think about using the chain to keep an added edge in case 1 tryed to scoot out or go spastic ... not a bad idea .
Have a mare coming in for repeat breeding with foal at side from last year's breeding... she is a sweet fruitcake..goosey is her middle name.

My stallion got so tired of her playing games with him last year..he just stood there- ready but just waiting for her to settle down. Drugs were a wonderful thing for her.. and should give the foal a nice quiet afternoon snooze .
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 587
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2006 - 08:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you go the route with meds, I would consider the meds that JR Hamilton uses and not the "ace". Ace from my experience in other situations sometimes has a unpredictable effect on a animal. The drugs used by JR seem to be a bit more predictable in most animals.

Any hind shoes .. I agree, get them off and do not allow for breeding any outside mares either.

Sometimes a maiden just needs a little time, and lots of talking too. A calm handler and one that can reassure her as to whats going on. Sometimes from our experiences you need a stallion that is willing to make the move and keep his weight on her at the mount. Once the first breeding takes place the rest normally fall into place. Your experiences sound normal and expected. Try using a good fence to do your breeding at. Letting the mare have her head over the fence line so she can't move all over the place while the stallion mounts (or even just in front of the fence row if she is not tall enough to put her head over it). It limits the space she has, does not allow for her to walk out from under the stallion.

Hobbles ??? we had a breeder insist on using them on our maiden mare. It was more of a night mare than anything. We had to show up for every breeding to handle the mare as the breeder was inexperienced enough that they didn't know how to get the job done without hobbles insisting that the mare just was going to kick. She is a quiet mare, and has never kicked. Stands quietley for a stallion as long as she is in the correct time frame for breeding! Duh ! Just be careful. Many times the mare then becomes frightened of anything being done with her hind feet. We good handling and persistance you will get done what nature intends for.

It sounds like your boy has a good head on his shoulders and you got your hands on him. That is a million steps in the right directions.


Good luck
 

J.R.Hamilton
Yearling
Username: Cobbreeder

Post Number: 64
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2006 - 03:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The ONLY HOBBLES I have ever seen that have worked without causing injury to mare and surely saved the stallion any damage from a back hoof of any crazy mare are used by Colorado State U. in Fort Collins... I took a couple of short courses there for prep of collection and shipping cooled semen..we saw the hobbles used at that time and even the most goosey mare didn't seem to mind.
I know a few bigger farms in KY that use them( these specific hobbles ) on a regular basis as AI is illegal for TB's and they want to protect their stallions
 

Megan A Brown
Breeding Stock
Username: Fabmeg

Post Number: 106
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2006 - 03:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The things they do for TB's boggle my mind!
 

Lori
Neonate
Username: Shstables

Post Number: 10
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 10, 2006 - 09:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This mare is not a kicker she is just a scooter. She tucks her hind end and gets the heck out of dodge! She is not at all aggressive towards him just terrified of him. We have decided to take it slow with both of them because I want it to be a good experience for both. I feel it is probably more important for him to have a good experience since this is the start of his breeding carrer. I really do not want a frustrated problem stallion.

This mare only has front shoes, my experienced mare does not have shoes and neither does the stallion. Thanks for suggestion that outside mares not have hinds. I probably would not have thought about that until the mare was on site. That would pose a big problem with a kicker!

I have decided to cover her next cycle and meanwhile let him cover my more experienced mare.

I will definately be contacting my vet for the tranqs. I think that it will save us all heartache.

(Message edited by shstables on May 10, 2006)
 

Pita
Weanling
Username: Pita

Post Number: 28
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 03:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

With Maiden mares that have silent heats. I always sedate abou 1.5 cc Ace IV. I bring the stallion the area first. We always use two lunglines on my stallion and this is really good with a maiden mare.. IMO. I bred a maiden mare last week the first time her 3rd day of her cycle showed little response.. We sedated her she stood perfect with a concerned look in her eye, but was an angel. She was like an old broodmare.I always have my boy mount on a slight angle in case they kick. with two lunge line we line up perfect. the second day we bred was her 5th day Flaming heat, squating, peeing etc.. So we decided not to sedate her. She was nervous danced etc.. Luckily we had two lines so we were able to direct him,but it wasn't very pretty. THe last day we sedated her, and she was an angel..
Good luck
 

Lori
Nursing Foal
Username: Shstables

Post Number: 16
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 09:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pita ~ this mare is NOT silent!! She is such a hussie when it comes to the guys. I swear I thought we would have absolutely no problem because everyone within a mile could tell this one was interested! Thanks so much for the suggestion though. I will be lightly sedating her next time. I hate it but i think if we get through the first baby and season she will understand all of it.

We ended up baggin it withher this cycle and letting him cover the more experienced mare. I think this was the best idea in the end. He had some troubles figuring out what went where even with the experienced mare. She was so patient and would look back at him like "It's ok you will figure it out eventually".

I will re-try with the maiden mare next cycle. I think it is the best idea for our situtation.
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 606
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 09:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Its funny Lori, I had to do the opposite. Our fellow is young too. The aged brood mare is getting cranky ! I had to let her go the first month as she has always been sorrta nasty if its just not perfect and I didn't want to make a bad impression on the inexperienced stallion the first go around. I went with a maiden mare that is a "hussy" too, she stood like a angle and waited for him to figure out where all the equiptment was located ! We were then able to breed the experienced mare on the next cycle and he knew what was going on :-)



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