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Starting Regumate on Day 7

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Breeding Problem Mares - Volume 1 » Starting Regumate on Day 7 « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Sharon Malmberg
Yearling
Username: Ryu2832

Post Number: 85
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 11:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

New Vet wants to wait unil day 7 post insemination to start Regumate. Any thoughts?
 

J.R.Hamilton
Yearling
Username: Cobbreeder

Post Number: 56
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 04:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why isn't Vet testing to see if mare actually needs it??.... Regumate has to be given very carefully by "intact " female owners... gloves etc... this stuff is absorbed almost instantly thru the skin and cause some really serious things( blood clots ) as well as screw up human female cycles..... The mare can be tested again thru the pregnancy to see if levels are adequate. Then tested again when the placenta kicks in at 160 days.

I have had mares that have had to stay on it til a week before due date.

But have ALWAYS tested prior to useage.
 

Sharon Malmberg
Yearling
Username: Ryu2832

Post Number: 86
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 09:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

She unfortunately needs it. Her previous owners used it, she is most likely a Regumate 'addict' by now even if she didn't need it before. The last time she was pregnant, she was on it for 10 months.

I work in a university research lab for a living, so I'm all over the PPE issues.
 

Megan A Brown
Weanling
Username: Fabmeg

Post Number: 31
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 01:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

„« Well even if she is a regemate addict her body wouldn't be producing any progesterone until after she ovulates and gives you a CL which gives you up to 2 days post insemination depending, but I think the vet's thought probably is that her initial CL would probably be producing enough to keep her happy for seven days. After seven days you could pull a sample on her and see if you can get away without it for a while longer, I think the vet is probably trying to save you money but if you are worried see if the vet will just put her on it, you can test the mares own progestin even if she's on the drug.
 

Sharon Malmberg
Yearling
Username: Ryu2832

Post Number: 90
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 10:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It just makes me nervous, because we had a plan to start on day 3.5 and I don't know why she's changing it now. Compared to the stud fee, the price of Regumate is nothing--the vet knows this.

I did some reading, and it looks like about day 14 the mare decides if she is preggers or not, something about the embryo rolling around in the uterus stimulating the lining, and it's then that they have to have an acceptable amount of progesterone.

So technically, even in a low progesterone mare (she is pretty consistent always around 1.7), you wouldn't NEED Regumate until just before day 14 to supress the mare from going back into a heat cycle? Is there any advantage to using Regumate before that time?

My head hurts.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10605
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 12:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Read the article about does my mare need Regumate? on this web site, it will tell you more.

The highest risk period for EED (early embryonic death) is during the first 30 days or so, and of that period, the first 15 days are the most critical. Progesterone serves a variety of functions - it is not the primary prevention factor of the stopping the mare from coming back into estrus though. The movement of the embryo up to about day 16 within the uterus blocks the release of another hormone - prostaglandin F2a, and it is that blocking that prevents destruction of the CL that is secreting the progesterone and allows pregnancy maintenance.

You will not in the article I mention above that a single blood sample is inadequate as an indicator of an accurate progesterone levels in the mare. Your mare may test at 1.7 and then 3 hours later be >5 ng/ml. Additionally, some mares have been identified that have maintained the pregnancy without Regumate with a level of 1.8 ng/ml!

Starting mares on Regumate before 3½ days is pointless and potentially a problem, as it prematurely closes the cervix. The accepted time to start mares is - as you note - 3½ days post-ovulation. Perhaps your best plan is to ask your vet why s/he is planning on waiting until 7 days?
 

Sharon Malmberg
Yearling
Username: Ryu2832

Post Number: 91
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 04:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

GaaaaH

So we just inseminated the mare. She had a 3.7cm 7am yesterday morning, and had already ovulated at 11:30am today. We're probably still ok, but to change things even more she handed me 10cc's of progesterone and told me to give it on Day 8!

The whole last year breeding fiasco is threatening to happen again. I was kind of stunned, I just took the progesterone and said ok. Gaah, Gaah, panic!

She said the mare's uterus looked great. Edema was perfect, we missed the ovulation but probably just by a couple of hours. I think she's trying to keep her off of the Regumate all together, but isn't telling me that.

To answer the whole progesterone level question, the previous owner did the 3-4 day 3-4sample testing, and she was consistently low--around 1.7. I've have her tested 4 times since I've had her, and she was never over 2ng/ml.

Progesterone on day 8? How does that fit in? She is back tomorrow at 8am to look at my other mare. I will ask why Day 8. Anything else? I'm not an owner that goes looking for trouble, really I'm not--but aren't signs pointing to needing Regumate?

Thanks for the help.
 

Megan A Brown
Weanling
Username: Fabmeg

Post Number: 36
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 05:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know it's hard when you really really want that mare’s colt, but your vet probably has a good reason. I think was a article that talked about a new progesterone study, that was mostly about how regimate could actually decrease fertility in some mares, and I think it may have had something to do with the prostaglandin F2a, production interference, so maybe she's just got some information you don't have. I wish I could remember more specifics or, even definitively where the information came from, but I think I forgot to make room for information for my Genetics final Don’t you just love mares that ovulate when their not supposed to? I have this 20y old mare that we're trying to do an ET on that almost never shows when she's in heat, and then keep ovulating small follicles on us!
GaaaaH I concur
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10608
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 06:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To answer the whole progesterone level question, the previous owner did the 3-4 day 3-4sample testing, and she was consistently low--around 1.7

At what stage of pregnancy was she tested?
 

Sharon Malmberg
Yearling
Username: Ryu2832

Post Number: 94
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 09:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Filly, filly, filly no colts! But I know what you mean Megan!

She was on Regumate for pretty much the entire pregnancy, up until month 10. I'm assuming they tested in the beginning--but I can't swear to it.

I need to know a few things before tomorrow morning:
#1 If she was on Regumate in 2003 for her entire pregnancy, and tested low progesterone then, what are the chances that she will need it now?

#2 How early can I test for progesterone for this pregnancy?

#3 If she tests ok now, do I let her go without regumate--even though the previous owners say she absolutely needs it?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10611
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 10:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Progesterone levels start to drop naturally around 90 days, and have bottomed out by about day 210. This is something a lot of people (including some vets) are not aware of, and they test after that 90 day point, panic, and keep the mare on Regumate throughout the pregnancy - needlessly. It is therefore important to know when that panel of tests was performed and not to jump to conclusions without knowing that.

1: If you can tell me why she was on it before, I'll tell you if you need it this time - and note that "because she had low progesterone levels" is not a reason! :-) Why did she have "low progesterone levels"? Without knowing that, you don't know if you'll need it again.

2: Progesterone levels are elevated by about day 6 post ovulation, but if the mare is already on the Regumate, be aware that that fact alone may lower her endogenous progesterone levels (yes - if you give a mare Regumate, she may end up needing Regumate - what a great marketing ploy!!!:-)). Typically, the mare is tested once she is checked in foal at ~15 days, as it is a waste of money to check levels and then find she is not in foal anyway...

3: That's the $6,000,000 question that nobody (including me! :-) ) is going to answer! If we say "yes" and she loses the pregnancy, then who's to blame??? Uh-uh... no way! I ain't putting my head in that noose!!!! :-)
 

Sharon Malmberg
Yearling
Username: Ryu2832

Post Number: 97
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 25, 2006 - 10:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jos, I do appreciate you sticking on this tread! You are a becon of light in the dark murky world of the mares uterus.

1. I asked why they left her on for the whole pregnancy before, the owner doesn't know--just said the vet ordered it because she wouldn't 'maintain' without it.

I had her thyroid tested last week and it came back normal/low. Not low enough to warrant medication in the vet's opinion.

2. Gaaaah! So we guess and put her on, or wait and test--possibly lose a pregnancy..I give up.

3. I apologize, unfair of me. Not even my vet will answer that one.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10612
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 12:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's some food for thought for you. Not that it will help you much! :-)

Between my wife and I (we go to opposite corners of the continent for breeding season!), last year we bred 40 mares that were 20 years of age or older. We had an 80% first-cycle pregnancy rate, and to the best of my knowledge, only a couple of mares have lost their pregnancies since then (which one would expect statistically for a variety of reasons). Of those 40 mares, only one was put onto Regumate, and that was because she has a known problem with an incompetent cervix (and she lost the pregnancy with the Regumate!!).

One area that I consider to be of importance that is often overlooked... Older mares in particular are susceptible to delayed uterine clearance issues - that is they are unable to easily clear all of the "nasty stuff" that arrives during breeding from one direction or another. We know that there is a possibility of endometritis happening as a result of these remaining uterine irritants, and we also know that an irritant in the uterus may result in prostaglandin release during diestrus. In addition to those facts, we also know that the use of prostaglandin for a few days post-ovulation in the mare results in a CL that is not secreting "normal" levels of progesterone, but if the prostaglandin treatment is stopped 2 days after ovulation, the progesterone levels will typically rebound by about day 7.

Taking all of those facts together, I have a strong suspicion that we (the collective "we" of the industry) see a lot of endometritis - albeit low grade - in older mares post breeding that results in a negative impact on the CL and it's ability to secrete adequate progesterone. I think that this is quite likely a reason for at least some, if not a lot, of the so-called "low progesterone mares" out there.

How then do we (my wife and I) have an above-average pregnancy/foaling rate in these older mares without using Regumate? Simple. We follow the oxytocin protocol! The use of a few dollars-worth of oxytocin in these mares results, I feel, in the savings of hundreds of dollars-worth of Regumate.

I am sure that there are genuine "low progesterone mares" that would not be impacted by use of this protocol, but I truly believe they are few and far between.

It's worth a thought... :-)
 

Sharon Malmberg
Yearling
Username: Ryu2832

Post Number: 98
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 01:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sounds like you and New Vet are of the same mind, except the day 8 progesterone shot.

We had a chat about the Trake mare this morning. She is of the mind that if fluid clearance was the primary problem last year, and thought to be the reason she didn't settle--then that is what we need to concentrate on right now.

So we will tease (although she is completly ingnoring the guys this morning), do the oxytocin protocol, let the CL form. Give the 10cc of progesterone at day 8, U/S and assay progesterone at day 15/16 to see where we are at.

She said she's had good luck with the day 8 'bump' on 'low' mares. She doesn't seem to be a fan of the low P/regumate protocol.

Nothing to do but patiently wait for the 10th, 11th of May.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10617
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 02:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Remember that if you are using long-acting progesterone rather than Regumate, the results of an assay at 15/16 days will be erroneous as an indication of endogenous levels.
 

Sharon Malmberg
Breeding Stock
Username: Ryu2832

Post Number: 101
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 26, 2006 - 04:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

She says the progesterone shot will clear in 5-6 days.

We'll see how it goes!

Thanks for your help!



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