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10 yr old Maiden...questions.

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Breeding Problem Mares - Volume 1 » 10 yr old Maiden...questions. « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

DeAnna Haase
Neonate
Username: Deanna

Post Number: 2
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 02:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We are trying to breed my 10 year old maiden paint mare. She has always been difficult to tell when she is in season..she just doesn't show.. and I have no accesss to a stallion for teasing.

This is how things have gone:
3/8/06 : Given P&E (LA 150mg)10cc
3/17/06 :Given Prostaglandin (Estrumate)
3/20/06 :ultrasound, Cervix was tight, uterus tone was slight, NSF on both LO and RO. Notes said "not in".
3/22/06 : ultrasound, cervix tight, uterus tone was slight, LO 25, RO 20, they took a culture and noted cervix was closed.
3/24/06 : ultrasound, cervix tight, uterus tone was slight, LO 25, RO 20.
3/26/06 cervix slightly relaxed, uterus tone was moderate, LO 32, RO NSF. Called for semen delivery for Monday or Tuesday delivery.
3/28/06 ultrasound, cervix slightly relaxed, uterus tone moderate, LO CL, RO NSF, Fed Ex had lost the semen shipment and it didn't arrive until 6PM she had already ovulated. We went ahead and inseminated her hoping for the best.
3/30/06 ultrasound, cervix tight, uterus tone flaccid with no fluid, LO CL, RO NSF.

Note* She has not had any edema in the uterus throughout..vet seemed concerned.

4/13/06 ultrasound, not pregnant =(
LO 30 unable to check RO..still no fluid in uterus. We have decided not to try and breed on this cycle and just monitor it this time. The vet will do another ultrasound on Monday and see what developes.

Any thoughts?
Is it likely that this is her normal cycle? Too early in the year? Do any of you have mares that present with no edema?
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 566
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 02:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Deanna,
I am not by no means a expert at the ai thing we do live cover, and my husband is certified in cattle( he has more knowledge on the ai thing). I do know that while doing ai sometimes it is good to try to find access to a stallion. It helps with the natural occurring process and can make a difference in a mares progress. Check with a local stable, they may be able to offer you a space for board for a time frame. We have worked with others in our area, providing some teasing for a mare to be bred ai. Sorry for the fed ex thing , but again have heard the same story many times. The time of year can make a differenc as well, Although I would think that with it being April you should be ok. What is your light cycle like in Or. ? We just started to do live cover here for the 2006 year. Our first mare came in season about 13 days ago under natural conditions(no extra help from us at all), but would not accept the stallion, this week it seems that the whole barn is full of mares in season. , thats about the way we feel!

It will be interesting to see what the us shows up on monday. Maybe she will be a mare that the folicle matures quickly . Seen that happen before. You may end up having to order shipment a bit earlier.
I am sure Jos will be more help with the other stuff.

(Message edited by kimk on April 14, 2006)
 

Jan Owen
Neonate
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 6
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 03:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi DeAnna,
I can only speak from my experience of getting my maiden 11 year old mare pregnant. She too never should signs of being in heat and was always ever tempered because of it. We were attempting to do AI and went the route you are trying. Two rounds we did and not able to get her to take. Needless to say lots of $ on shots, vet, and ultrasounding and no sucess. My vet put me in contact with a vet who had an interest in reproduction and she said a "late" maiden mare not showing signs of beign in season year of year becomes hard to get pregnant. So she strongly suggested that we find a local stallion we like for live teasing and cover. We took her advice and she was successfully bred and delivered a healthy colt (although he was born on day 377!) She is 15 now and we are expecting a second foal from her. We did have to give her a shot to bring her into season but we used a "live" stud. She is currently on day 364 with this pregnancy. It was well worth the hassle and I encourage to try some different methods. Good Luck!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10578
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 03:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It appears from your description that the timing was right on the money as far as the P&E was concerned, but the weak link in the program was the timing of the insemination as a result of the loss of the semen.

Did you use an ovulation stimulator such as hCG or Deslorelin?

One strange thing in the profile is the apparent size of the follicle at the time of ovulation, which was a little smaller than one would normally expect (although one has to expect the unexpected in with breeding!!).

The absence of edema is also strange, and would cause some degree of concern that this was actually a mid-cycle follicle, but relaxation of the cervix would make that less likely.

The presence of a stallion can be beneficial with indications of receptivity (and therefore an indication of estrus) but beyond that, there is no real need for one, and good management practices result in thousands of pregnancies each year with the absence of a stallion while using transported semen.

If the mare has ovulated, then patently the time of year and light levels are academic.

This cycle will in all likelihood be a perfectly normal cycle. Even if you are not breeding her this time, I would still feel inclined to check her at about 21 days after the prior ovulation as that will assist in pinpointing the timing of the next ovulation, as well as confirming the regularity of the previous cycle.
 

DeAnna Haase
Neonate
Username: Deanna

Post Number: 3
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 05:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the quick replies.
Jos, no we did not give her the HCG injection..if I am remembering correctly..we would have given that to her before inseminating or at that time..but she had already ovulated by the time the semen got there. The stallion owner asked(warned) that we not give it to her before it was there. I'll post back on Monday after the ultrasound. I have also felt blessed that she doesn't show her heat cycles..now I'm wishing she would show BIG. Again, thank you so much for the quick replies.

PS..how do I find the articles I keep seeing referenced on here?
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 567
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 05:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.equine-reproduction.com/index.shtml

This is the main link to the site. Thought I would give that to you instead of the link to the articles. Click on the articles link and you will find many.

Enjoy reading!
Kim
 

anita howard
Nursing Foal
Username: Mofoxtrottr

Post Number: 17
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 07:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I tried AI 2 years ago on my maiden mare.
Three tries in a row and $1,000 later still no pregnancy. I chose live cover last year and she settled the first time. She was away 7 days and back home and in foal. AI did not work for my mare, for my mare live cover is the way to go.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10581
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 07:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Anita: Did anyone think to try the oxytocin protocol with your mare when AI'ing? Delayed uterine clearance is usually the problem with such a scenario, and the use of $3 of oxytocin will make all the difference!
 

anita howard
Nursing Foal
Username: Mofoxtrottr

Post Number: 19
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 07:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jos, it has been so long I really do not remember. I know my mare was given lots of shots and lots of ultrasounds to determine the size of the folicule, but I would not have a clue as to the names of the drugs.
 

Daniel Crouse
Weanling
Username: Sneakers17

Post Number: 25
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Friday, April 14, 2006 - 11:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Funny, were having the opposite results with our 11 year old maiden mare. When my grandfather owned her he tried live cover and never took; but this year me and my brother are using AI and at day 14 she was confirmed pregnant. The farm we are using for the smen was extremely helpful and the vet was great. The downside is it cost us $300 for one mare and thats seems a lot for only being in high school.
 

DeAnna Haase
Neonate
Username: Deanna

Post Number: 4
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 12:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

$300 for ????
Daniel, $300 is an incredibly small amount of money even if you had done live cover. It is $100 each time the vet comes out and does an ultrasound...that adds up to $700.00 already (after Mondays us)and doesn't include the stud fee, collection fee, booking fee, sedation the one time she needed it, shots, shipping the semen, culture...time off work for each of those vet appointments ( I love my boss!)and it is still adding up and we don't even have a baby yet!
I say you should be celebrating your good fortune!
 

Daniel Crouse
Weanling
Username: Sneakers17

Post Number: 26
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 04:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, I guess I'm lucky. I'll break it down; The vet that we get it done at is New Brunswick department for agriculture and aquaculture. Government worker. First we take our mare to the lab and get ultrasounded there and it's a $100 per hour and it took about 15 minutes. She was in heat and she stayed there for 3 days at $30.00 a day(ultrasounded in them days). The farm like I said was very helpful and are geared for helping the small breeder, so there is no charge for the collection and booking fee. Shipping we got by bus and only cost $16.00.

Well this is our first year and the shots I know we still have to pay for and will come, culture was already done. Were into Standardbreds and when we breed two mares theres a $250 discount on both stud fees. One mares, stallion we bred to was $750.00 now $500. The other was $500 now $250.


Heres a break down:
3 Days at lab and 3 ultasounds and insemination: $300.00.
Collection and booking fee: $0.00.
Semen Shipping by SMT bus: $16.00.

That equals for one mare: $316.00.

We still have to pay for shots and stud fee: $250.00 for live foal and whatever shots cost at 5,7,9 months.

So for one mare for man power payments it's a total around: $600.00.
Not including feed. And vet check ups at foaling.
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 568
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 04:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Daniel, that is far below cost for a breeding a mare via shipped semen in the Paint or Quarterhorse breeds. For just the breeding the cost is min. of 500.00 and up. Then for collection and shipping is additonal sometimes in the area of 250.00 per shipment. So for a breeding alone you could get 750.00 bucks in just the stallion fees alone for starters. Some will include a shipment or two under the breeding and then start changing additional cost if you need more than that. Then you can start adding vet costs and services of such.
 

Daniel Crouse
Weanling
Username: Sneakers17

Post Number: 27
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 15, 2006 - 08:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry I didn't know that it was more expensive to breed paint and quarter horses. Yeah, I know about the collection fee thing. All the stallions we were looking at and the one we decided;we were very lucky because of there principles.
 

Sharon Malmberg
Yearling
Username: Ryu2832

Post Number: 72
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 12:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DeAnna
I didn't have access to a stallion for my mares either. I went ahead and bought a mini stallion--a 31" love machine!

He has done a great job teasing my mares, and I don't regret buying him for a minute. They are really easy keepers and don't require a lot of space.

Just a thought, good luck with your girl!
 

Kim Winter
Breeding Stock
Username: Clafairy

Post Number: 308
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 11:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My stallion fee was 200 and 100 for shipping, the vet was 35.00 a Scan, 35.00 for insemination, 20 a day livery for whenever she stayed there (about a week in total in the end, about 79.00 for them to come out and give her the prosoglandin shot (and the vet said it only costs them 3.00 for the drug!) and the list goes on!!! Luckily I dont have to do the 5/7 &9 mth jabs where I am, but still It must have cost around 1500.00 (pounds) for breeding my one TB mare! And its not over yet : ) Plus all the building materials for the new foal proofing of my field... Im not sure how Ive managed it, but I have, and Id do it all again so far ( Mind, ask me that in a months time, Im at 314 days at the mo.)

You were lucky Daniel, and its good because it gave you this chance to experience something you enjoy. Good luck with your mare and futur foal ; )
 

DeAnna Haase
Neonate
Username: Deanna

Post Number: 5
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 11:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We ultrasounded my girl yesterday morning(4/17/06) and she is still at 30 on the LO, no fluid. The vet thinks maybe she is ovulating before the fluid developes. We will ultrasound her again on Wednesday.
Sharon, I'm wondering if my husband will think this is a good enough excuse to get a mini, lol. I'll have to feel him out on the idea. I wonder if I could lease one?? We do have two extra stalls.
Is the benefit to having a stallion for teasing just so it's easy to see when she shows? or would having a stallion to tease with bring her MORE into heat..make her cycle stronger?
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 573
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 19, 2006 - 10:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Deanna, you will hear conflicting opinouns about the stallion teasing thing. We do find that there is much better results with a stallion around. Had some folks here a few years ago that were having trouble with ai with their mare. Vet asked for a stallion to be present. They boarded the mare here in order to use our stallion for teasing and getting the mare into a stronger cycle. It worked for them and their mare.
Its funny I now have a mare in heat and she has her bum plastered against the stall wall that is between her and the stallion. He sniffs her and if she could push the wall down she would! We have half wood walls with the top of it is cattle panels. Allows for teasing while next to each other in the barn.

Good luck
Kim
 

DeAnna Haase
Neonate
Username: Deanna

Post Number: 6
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 20, 2006 - 11:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We ultrasounded her again yesterday (wednesday) and she had ovulated. So she is ovulating with a 30-32 and with no edema. We will try breeding her again on the next cycle. The vet said she will order semen at like 28 and use Deslorelin. In the meantime I'll be coming up with a fertility dance to perform...you never know it may help!
 

DeAnna Haase
Neonate
Username: Deanna

Post Number: 7
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, May 08, 2006 - 12:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Update:

This time around we have taken my girl up to the vets so that she can be ultrasounded whenever the vets wants. We have had some really nice weather with lots of sunshine and it seems to have helped. She has a couple follicles on both ovaries. One was at 28 yesterday and she has some edema! We have ordered the semen for a Monday collection and Tuesday delivery. Everyone ...cross fingers and toes for us!
 

Sharon Malmberg
Breeding Stock
Username: Ryu2832

Post Number: 117
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Monday, May 08, 2006 - 04:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fingers and toes crossed, good luck!
 

Jan Owen
Weanling
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 44
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2006 - 01:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

He DeAnna,

I am right behind you...looks like we will be ordering semen for Thursday. Fingers and toes crossed!
 

DeAnna Haase
Neonate
Username: Deanna

Post Number: 8
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 07:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, everything went really well, she ovulated two and is home now. We will ultrasound again in on the 14th day to see if she caught and make sure there are not twins.

I'll keep my everything crossed for you too Jan!
 

DeAnna Haase
Neonate
Username: Deanna

Post Number: 9
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 07:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Day 14 showed nothing =(, we are really disappointed. We will re-check at day 18, and breed one more cycle, but if she doesn't take this time I think we will call it quits.
How likely is it that the vet just missed it at this early day? She says it is possible she just can't see it but doesn't want to get our hopes up either.
 

Jan Owen
Yearling
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 90
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 09:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DeAnna,

I know that at this point you are feeling a let down but hand on and see what the next one says. My last foal I had my mare checked at 14 days and the vet found something but was not sure if it was a cyst. He U/S at day 22 and we saw the flicker of a heart beat. This year my mare did not take with the AI so the stallion is in a big show this weekend (Memorial day) and the stallion owner may bring him back to CA in June so I have my fingers crossed for that. The 2 times my mare has concieved it was by live cover. I guess she likes the real "date". I will keep my fingers crossed for you!
 

Terri Settle
Neonate
Username: Tls

Post Number: 1
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 03:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's the sad story. Tried AI twice last year on my then 8 YO maiden mare. No luck. Took her to a different stallion this year, live cover. This is her 3rd breeding time, will know Monday if she settled this time. I have been informed that if she didn't take after 2 AIs then there is something physically wrong and further that if she hasn't settled from live cover after 2 times, then there's something wrong with her. This is third hand opinion (friend of a "friend"). Now, of course, I'm freaking out. Vet has checked her to be breeding sound and found no physical reason for her not to take upon physical exam. I'm pondering how involved with blood work, repro specialist etc. I want to be. I am trying to breed my next show horse, but don't HAVE to. Any truth to the theory that if she hasn't taken by now she isn't going to? Who knew it would be this difficult? Thanks for letting me vent!
 

Jennifer D
Nursing Foal
Username: Jennifer

Post Number: 14
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 06:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Terri,

I feel your pain. I have tried unsuccessfully to breed my 12 yr old (last year Maiden)for 2 years now. She took but the conceptus was very small at 16 day check and she ended up losing it. I too have gotten to the point of "How much more do I spend and can she get pregnant and keep it?" So, good luck and I am curious what others think.
 

Sara
Neonate
Username: Equinervt

Post Number: 3
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 07:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi gang,

I'm still a bit new here, but we have had a little bit of success with mature maidens...they are still all very individual and don't all follow the same path.

Some things that need to be done on mares that have not settled after 2-3 attempts
...evaluate the mare's overall condition...excess weight can be detrimental to fertility as can underweight...is she a high stress kind of horse?
...culture/cytology...make sure that nothing has been introduced...ESPECIALLY when breeding live cover.
...If possible, have the stallion's semen evaluated...I would suspect that the stallion has covered and settled other mares?? if the mare's fertility is being questioned. When breeding live cover, you really can't know what condition the swimmers are in.
...post breeding infusion with antibiotic or a uterine lavage to help the mare eliminate excess fluid.

Those are just a few things off the top of my head that might be worth trying/looking at.

I had a 17 yo mare that was maiden last year, but did not settle...we got her on the 2nd cycle this year, unfortunately with twins...she aborted them herself and now we are on round 3...
 

Hannah MacDonald
Weanling
Username: Hannah

Post Number: 27
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 06:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi All

My mare was a maiden at 14, we had her done AI. I knew her cycles inside out, took her on the Thursday and she was about a day early, took her back Friday to be insemenated, took back Sunday to ensure no fluid retention and then went back for the scan 14 days later. In foal first time, no drugs etc at all

She was in excellent physical condition and had been all of her life, so I am sure it helped. Sometimes I think leaving the drugs out of the equation helps - I now have a super 8 week old colt, mare who happily took to motherhood and we are hoping to put her back in foal again next spring.

Hx
 

Jennifer D
Nursing Foal
Username: Jennifer

Post Number: 15
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 12:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sara,

My mare in particular can be very "emotional" and stress, but has been very good as I have her favorite gelding with her at the farm where she is being bred. We are doing AI and the swimmers are excellent, we have done the oxytocine protocal as well as levaged her....this year. I just bred her again on June 30th and now we are doing the wait and see thing.
She was trickier this time, we were shipping on a 30 and she was like clockwork, this past time she went to a 40+ before ovulating. Needless to say I shipped semen 3 times. I don't hold out much hope for this breeding since she was so deviant from her normal pattern. Talk about a breeding bill! I am about ready to give up on her.
 

Terri Settle
Neonate
Username: Tls

Post Number: 2
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Monday, July 10, 2006 - 02:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Miracle of miracles-we have a baby on board. Thanks for all the positive remarks, I was about to be faced with some awful decisions as I can't add to my herd (boy husbands are really unreasonable sometimes, aren't they?) Now I only have about another 10 months to worry that she doesn't lose it! :-)
 

Jennifer D
Nursing Foal
Username: Jennifer

Post Number: 16
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 10:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Congrats Terri, I only hope that at my 16 day check I will be as lucky. Here's to her hanging on to that baby!



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