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Any mares that will just conceive with live cover???

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Breeding Problem Mares - Volume 1 » Any mares that will just conceive with live cover??? « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Angela Houle
Neonate
Username: Rageninvestment

Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 01:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have tried unsuccessfully to breed my mare for the past three years by AI. Both shipped and fresh semen. She has been declared "breeding sound" with a 2A uterus, no sign of infection, ect. Over $7000 in vet fees, shipping, ect. This year, she is going to bred live cover by my friend's stallion as a last ditch effort. Although I understand it is not thought to make a difference, does anyone have information on their mares who did settle with live when they didn't for AI?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10049
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 03:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Be careful of being reliant on the answers you get as being representational of a true "inability to get pregnant with AI"... :-)

The problem with asking the question you do is that in many cases good management will achieve a better pregnancy rate if AI is used, but those good management practices may not be in place. Probably the leading situation that results in the "can't get pregnant by AI" observation relates to mares that have delayed uterine clearance issues (we outline this in the Breeding Myth-information article). When mares are teased by a stallion during the live-cover breeding process, they release low levels of oxytocin - sufficient to clear uterine fluid in some cases - but if being bred AI with transported semen, there is generally no stallion interaction, and hence, no clearance of fluid (so pregnancy loss or establishment failure). Use of AI and an [cheap and easy!] oxytocin protocol can result in a higher pregnancy rate than live cover with these mares.

I know you probably didn't want to hear that the use of $4 of oxytocin might have saved you a considerable part of your $7000 vet bill, but it might well have been the case.... :-(

The other issue to consider if you were breeding unsuccessfully only to one stallion is the stallion and stallion/mare interaction. Of course, one should ask if the stallion has known fertility (a good starting point!!) and assuming he has - and that the shipped semen is viable - there is always the possibility of the mare producing "antisperm antibodies". This is a situation where your mare - for whatever [unknown] reason - produces antibodies that destroy sperm specifically from that stallion. If that is the case, changing stallions can often be all that is needed, not changing breeding techniques.

Overall, as you can see, my feelings are that there isn't a mare out there that will not get pregnant using AI if she will get pregnant using live cover, but she may need to be managed differently.
 

TX Breeder (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 199.3.209.175
Posted on Friday, April 29, 2005 - 11:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Angela- I understand how frustrating this is for you. Have you followed the follicle with ultra sound? Has your vet checked the semen before AI? Has the semen been checked at different time periods? Has your vet used HCG at the appropriate time? Has he followed the proceedure with Oxytocin? Did he check for pregnancy at around day 16? As Jos stated, there are many things that contribute to the success of AI.

I do feel that nature has its ways to get the job done...sometimes all of our manipulations can get in way if not handled correctly. Some mares just relax and respond to the teasing and live cover.Good luck to you and let us know how everything turned out.
 

Angela Houle
Neonate
Username: Rageninvestment

Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 08:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All of the procedures were followed- EXCEPT using oxytocin. To be fair, some of the shipments of semen were not considered good quality. I guess there are so many variables! I will cry if she conceives this year using oxytocin. I am waiting to take her to the stallion. She did show heat (and she normally doesn't) April 22 and 23 and was ultrasounded yesterday showing no follicles as yet.

Angela
 

TX Breeder (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 199.3.209.185
Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 01:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I hope those will be tears of joy!!! Even with live cover, the use of Oxytocin may enhance your odds of conception.

You may consider taking her a bit early so that she becomes familiar with their teasing routine. If she had never been live covered before, she may need to learn that the stallion is not going to hurt her. Teasing helps the mare respond in a natural way to the advances.

Good Luck- you deserve it.
 

Joy Charlene Dunton
Neonate
Username: Jcd

Post Number: 1
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 02:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Angela,
I definitely understand your frustration, because as I was reading your post it seemed as though it were my situation. I had the exact same problem for the last 2 years with my mare. I finally did end up live covering her with, as you did, a friends stallion. She did conceive. I have never heard of the oxytoxin. I wonder why my vet didn't suggest it? I spent thousands of $'s trying to get her to settle with AI with no luck. My vet just told me that some mares don't take well to AI. But her cycles went an extra long time like 9 and 10 days when she was AI'd on her 6th and 7th day. I am glad for one thing, that she did settle. I hope your mare does too. Good Luck.
 

TX Breeder (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 199.3.209.216
Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 12:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As Joy and Angela have found out, not all vets are created equal! However, thanks to sites like this one, you can educate yourself and improve the chances of conception.
 

Angela Houle
Neonate
Username: Rageninvestment

Post Number: 5
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 12:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am just waiting for the ULTRASOUND. My mare was bred on the 8th and 10th live cover and although I have no reason to be hopeful, I am on the edge of my chair....
 

TX Breeder (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 199.3.209.127
Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 02:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am with you on this one! I have one more to inseminate (late decision by the owner)and then I'm done for this year.

I was a bit annoyed with the vet, because I asked him to come and inseminate on a day that I would not be here.(mother having a heart operation). Well, he waited until I was home, and missed the ovulation.

I tell you, even when you have a good relationship with the vet, things can happen. We have stocks and good help here when I am gone, but, it just goes to show you that you have to be involved.
 

Angela Houle
Neonate
Username: Rageninvestment

Post Number: 6
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 09:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

UPDATE-

Yesterday, I was given the news that my mare is confirmed 16 or 17 days in foal by ultrasound!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What variables changed? Live cover and although no oxytocin this time, she was stalled directly beside a stallion and had an opening for contact so was teased constantly during and after breeding. I can't wait to call the head vet who did not recommend live cover and who doesn't use oxytocin as part of his AI regimine. After 3 years and $7000 later, one of those factors must have been an influence, in my opinion!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10106
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 09:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Congratulations!

I suspect that you will find that the oxytocin is the factor rather than the live cover. We have had and seen tremendous success with "problem" mares using oxytocin and AI. It does look like it opens up windows for you in the future if you do decide to use transported semen - just remember to use an oxytocin protocol :-)
 

Angela Houle
Neonate
Username: Rageninvestment

Post Number: 7
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 12:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jos,

I already have that article copied and my own general vet had certainly agreed to try it. We didn't use it the first time with this mare just due to the vet being away so just thought we would try oxytocin the next cycle. The stallion owner (my friend) did move horses around so as to stable the mare directly beside the stud for optimum natural oxytocin production from what we read in the article, as well. I, too, believe that was the deciding factor in the end!!! Thanks for the great articles and wonderful site!

I am just SO HAPPY!
 

TX Breeder (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 199.3.209.119
Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 04:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Now Angela...we do not want to hear you complaining about "mare stare" in about a year!
 

Angela Houle
Neonate
Username: Rageninvestment

Post Number: 8
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 09:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

She aborted! Back to the drawing board (and stud) tomorrow.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10168
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 10:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bad luck.

Try the full oxytocin protocol this time.

Good luck in this go-round...
 

Angela Houle
Neonate
Username: Rageninvestment

Post Number: 9
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 09:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Still in anestrus- she must have aborted between day 35 and day 41.
 

cathy Cook
Neonate
Username: Razmacat

Post Number: 2
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 07:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Congrats on your pregnancy. I do not breed a mare on my farm without oxytocin. For such a cheap drug its great! I have also sworn off Ovuplant implants because it shuts mares down and now use the injectable, it is very good.
 

Angela Houle
Neonate
Username: Rageninvestment

Post Number: 10
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 03:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)



Came back into heat, bred and now she is confirmed 19 days in foal today!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Renee Clover
Weanling
Username: Reneec

Post Number: 23
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 08:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Angela,
Well better luck with this one! We'll keep our fingers crossed for you!!
Goodluck
Renee
 

Angela Houle
Nursing Foal
Username: Rageninvestment

Post Number: 12
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 06:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)



Dare I say it? 36 days confirmed in foal and embryo with a heartbeat!!!!!
 

Renee
Weanling
Username: Reneec

Post Number: 35
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 07:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Angela,
Congrats... your not too far away from being out of the "danger zone"! Keep her going!!! :-)
Im happy for you
 

CAB
Nursing Foal
Username: Ksaqha

Post Number: 11
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 09:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Congratulations! Hope she holds onto it and all goes well. I'm breathing easier now that my mare passed the 60 day mark, a couple weeks ago. She's gotten used to being lazy, so acted a bit cranky when she finally had to do some "work" last weekend.
 

Angela Houle
Nursing Foal
Username: Rageninvestment

Post Number: 14
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 10:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

UPDATE- Ok last one till foaling. Confirmed STILL in foal at 100 days post breeding!!!!!!!!
 

Kelly Lea Adams
Neonate
Username: Kelly_lea

Post Number: 10
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 07:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just want to add a little something here as also a possible cause for the mare not taking by AI.

I know of a mare that is allergic to the extenders they put in fresh shipped semen, she's conceived by natural cover before and didn't have any problems until they tried shipped semen on her. The semen quality was excellent, so that also wasn't a factor. They had her tested and she is indeed allergic to it.

Just something else to keep in mind if you ever try AI with her again. :-)
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10338
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 10:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kelly, I would be interested to know more about how (and ny whom) the mare was defined as being allergic to extenders, and what form the allergy took. "Allergy" to extender is one of the most over-suggested items in the equine AI world - right up there with the need to use Regumate as much as it is! :-)
 

Kelly Lea Adams
Nursing Foal
Username: Kelly_lea

Post Number: 11
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 02:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Jos,

The mare in question isn't mine, but the people who owned her at the time tested her, I don't know all of the details myself which is why I said I know 'of' a mare who was reported with this problem.

All I know for sure is the name of the mare, her registration number, the people who owned her at the time and what they themselves said publicly concerning her when she was offered for sale a few years back. They are reputable breeders in the Paint industry and I doubt they'd knowingly lie about one of their mares.

I will happily supply that information in private if you wish to pursuit it further, but it's not my place to broadcast their private information over this public forum. :-)

I am clueless myself about semen extenders and had a near brush with Regumate (which still might be suggested to me next year for my older maiden mare) so I can only report what I hear from the source concerning these topics. :-)

Kelly Adams
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10362
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Saturday, November 26, 2005 - 06:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kelly - You might want to take a look at the article entitled breeding mythinformation. It discusses the alleged "allergy to extenders".

I have no doubt of the veracity of you or your source, but equally, I hear it many many times a year, and have yet to find a situation where there really is an allergy to the extender. This is something that is often misunderstood by the lay person - and indeed some vets - and hence its place in the mythinformation article!

There is a possibility of a reaction to the antibiotic in the extender - for example a mare that is penicillin sensitive and is inseminated with a penicillin-based antibiotic in the extender. This type of reaction though is typically an anaphylactic-type reaction, and not the production of pus that is subsequently released externally from the labial region and is then attributed to a "reaction".

All healthy mares produce pus in the uterus when bred! It is the perfectly normal reaction to an invasion of the uterus by a foreign substance - sperm. In healthy mares, that reaction will be pretty well on the downward swing by 24 hours after the insult (breeding). In mares with delayed uterine clearance issues it will persist longer. Again - this presence of pus is perfectly normal, and passage of that pus out of the mare's vaginal opening onto the ground is not only normal, but desirable. You don't want the pus to stay inside the mare! With those mares that have delayed uterine clearance issues, the delay in clearing this pus can become a significant problem and result in reduction (or deletion) of pregnancy rates. The use of an oxytocin protocol in those mares can make the difference between pregnancy or not in many if not most cases!

As far as your kind offer for providing more information privately, thank you, but I don't feel it's necessary. If you would care to pass the information I have offered above to the mare owners though, that may hopefully prove of assistance to them in the event that they try to breed the mare again or run into a similar situation.
 

Kelly Lea Adams
Nursing Foal
Username: Kelly_lea

Post Number: 13
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 02:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Jos,

Thanks for the information! I'll pass it on, but I do happen to know these people are very good about their pre and post breeding care. They've been breeding for over 30 years so they know much more than myself. :-)

Thanks once again! :-)

Kelly Adams
 

Angela Houle
Nursing Foal
Username: Rageninvestment

Post Number: 19
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, June 19, 2006 - 04:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

UPDATE- A beautiful little bay filly born June 18/06! No problems and mom and baby are doing great!
 

Diane Gatlin
Neonate
Username: Dhgatlin

Post Number: 7
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, June 19, 2006 - 12:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Angela,
We would love to see pics of your very deserved foal! Congrats!



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