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Older mare with cysts: Vet can't tell if in foal after 60 days??

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Breeding Problem Mares - Volume 1 » Older mare with cysts: Vet can't tell if in foal after 60 days?? « Previous Next »

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Sonja (161.184.181.4)
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2001 - 11:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have sent a 18 year old mare, which I have leased to breed to be bred, she was covered and sent for ultrasound after 30 days from last breeding. The vet told the stallion owner she had quite a few cysts, and couldn't tell if she was in foal. When he palpated her he thought she had a follicle though. The mare was taken back to stallion, but never came back in heat. Today she was taken for her second ultrasound to the same vet, she would be 60 days now, the vet says she has a follicle again, and on ultrasound she can't tell if she is in foal yet. She thinks the foal may be laying in a way she can't see it, but thought she may have seen two feet??? She wants her back again in 2 weeks for another ultrasound. Has anyone ever had any experience like this? Is it possible that she is in foal and the vet really can't tell? Any info. on this subject would be greatly appreciated. I have never had anything like this happen before?? Are there any other test the vet can do to give me a 100% answer on her status? Thanks in advance!!!
 

Kelly (63.172.47.183)
Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2001 - 12:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree that it does sound a bit odd. I have an older Arabian mare here that has a uterus filled with clusters of cysts. We will not be able to see a preganacy for quite a while either. At 90 days, a blood test would give you an accurate answer. Earlier blood testing could give you a false positive.
 

Sonja (161.184.196.200)
Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2001 - 08:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kelly, Have you been able to get your older mare with cysts in foal? I am leasing this mare, and she hasn't been bred in a few years. Do you know if the cysts cause any problems in these numbers when and if they are in foal?? Thanks in advance, Sonja
 

Kelly (63.172.47.194)
Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2001 - 10:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Unbelievably, yes, twice. The problem is after conception, when the conceptus needs to affix itself to the uterus. The cysts impede the process by being in the way. You can have them removed by laser, but of course there is recuperation time to consider. It is not impossible for the mare to get pregnant, but it is a gamble. Good luck.
 

Sonja (161.184.204.200)
Posted on Sunday, July 29, 2001 - 02:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Kelly, I am keeping my fingers crossed, she is a *Tuhotmos/*Bint Al Badiea daughter and is bred to a Sheykh Obeyd stallion Masada El Bahim. I would love to have a foal from this cross!!! I will keep you posted after her next ultrasound. Thanks for the hope!!! Sonja
 

Tracy (158.252.225.164)
Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 04:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I bred a 16 year old maiden mare with multiple cysts in her uterus. u/s at 16 days and vet saw a vesicle at the base of her left horn that seemed pretty consistent with a 16 day pregnancy but not 100% sure since she has so many cysts. Put her on Regumate for 10 days and then re-ultrasounded her at approx 26 days pregnant. Now vet says not pregnant and uterus doesn't feel as firm. Saw sac without embryo in it so thinks it's just another cyst. My question is, mare has not gone back in heat and has been off the Regumate for 9 days now. This mare is VERY obvious when in heat, will show to other mares!! Could she still be pregnant and the vet somehow missed it? Should we re-ultrasound her?
 

Kelly (63.172.47.208)
Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 06:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tracy- It is possible, but not probable. It is also very likely that this mare has shut down for the year. It could not hurt to re-ultrasound and see what has changed, if anything. Did you print a picture of the last ultrasound for comparison?

It is very frustrating, I have one here that will have to be over 50 days before we can call it.
 

Tracy (158.252.225.176)
Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 06:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We don't have any pictures but the vet saved it on disc. I suppose she could have shut down for the year but she usually cycles year round! Last year she was showing signs of heat in the middle of winter. The breeder said they have never bred a mare that was so obvious and ready to go! Her attitude has totally changed too. She's gone from being kinda nasty to really sweet and wanting human interaction. Maybe I'm just wanting it too much :(
 

Kelly (63.172.47.214)
Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2001 - 11:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think that you have reason to hope. This is not an exact science. I have a mare that changes her attitude at 15 days pregnant.

If your vet feels that a pregnancy is possible, try another ultrasound. I would suggest waiting past 50 days so as to have a good comparison.

The good news is, you will only have 6 months more to wait until next breeding season. You might want to consider laser on those cysts in the mean time. It would make breeding much easier next year. Good luck.
 

Tracy (158.252.225.162)
Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2001 - 12:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Kelly! I was going to give my vet a call and let him know what's going on today. I'll let you know if we find anything out.
 

Tracy (158.252.226.13)
Posted on Saturday, August 11, 2001 - 05:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just to let you know, my vet came out and palpated my mare today. She's pregnant!! I guess we did miss it behind all her cysts. He was pretty amazed and didn't charge me for today's visit since it was missed last time. So now it will be a long 9 1/2 more months!
 

Kelly (63.172.47.214)
Posted on Saturday, August 11, 2001 - 08:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tracy- I love it! What great news. The time will fly by.
 

Sonja (161.184.192.125)
Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 12:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, I thought I would update you on our mare.... the original post. She had her third US and vet says not pregnant. She thinks she hasn't come back in heat because all the cysts are making her think she is pregnant??? Anyway, she has a follicle that the vet thinks is not good, so she has been given Lutalyse, supposed to let her go through this heat, give Lutalyse again in 16 days, then breed when in standing heat, breed again 2 days later, then give a shot of something to make her ovulate, then take her in to get her uterus flushed and hope for the best!! Has anyone ever had any experience with anything like this, she does have quite a few cysts... I am also considering embryo transfer in the future if all our options are exhausted. We are going to wait to have her next US for about 60 days after her last breeding. Good news is all my mares at home bred to my boy have been palpated and all three are in foal!!!!
 

Rabbit (209.143.52.131)
Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 03:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I had a mare that had a major cyst problem myself. Eventually the cysts were so large and numerous that she was not able to hold a pregnancy. I took her to the OSU (Ohio) vet hospital to have them removed. It was a fascinating procedure - I got to watch it on a large screen TV since they had a color scope/camera in her the entire time. Basically the cysts were just fluid-filled pockets. The veterinarain went in with a suction tube and put the tube on a cyst, then turned the suction on. The suction would pull part of hte cyst into the tube, where it would break and the fluid would by suctioned up into the tube. It was a time-consuming procedure, but it was very effective in removing most of the larger cysts.

I was told, however, that this did not get rid of the underlying problem in the uterus. Basically, as soon as my mare would have her foal, the cysts wouold reappear, and it was likely we would have to have this procedure done again and again. It was recommended to me that this procedure be done no more than 1-2 months before you planned to cycle and pregnate her. Unfortunately, I lost my mare (to a broken leg) one week after the surgery, so I never got to find out how successful it was.

Your veterinarian should be able to tell through ultrasound if she is pregnant after 23 days - when the circle starts showing the outline of the foal. That is what distinguishes it from the cysts. Mine never had a problem determining after 23 days, but it was impossible to tell any earler.

Good luck!
 

Sonja (161.184.205.85)
Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 05:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Rabbit, With her first breeding in May we had her US at 30 days & 60 days, and vet still wasn't sure she was in foal, she thought she was but when we brought her back at 75 days she finally concluded that she wasn't in foal. This isn't my usual vet, it was the stallion owners vet. I did think it took her a long time to figure out that she was open though. When she comes home I will have my vet who has a repro-facility check her as well. I am so sorry to hear about you losing that mare!!! Thanks for your help...
 

Rabbit (209.143.52.193)
Posted on Tuesday, August 21, 2001 - 08:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just a side note - the cyst-removal procedure cost around $325...to me it was well worth it because my mare was top notch (which made it all the more sad to lsoe her!). I would contact your state university vet hospital and ask about it. Or contact Dr. Threlfal of Ohio State University and ask him - he is the one who did my procedure. I have his e-mail somewhere if you need it.
 

Kelly (63.172.47.217)
Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2001 - 01:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sonja- I think that you should have your own vet have a look. It does not sound to me as if this other vet is on top of things.

If indeed the cyst are the problem, where they are located can be a determining factor. AI would not give you any better results if the cysts are preventing the conceptus to attach to the uterus. However, the cyst removal is a viable proceedure with many good results.

It is hard to get the entire pregnancy on the ultrasound after 60 days or so. Depending on the size of these cysts, it could be very hard to determine a pregnancy. I look forward to your vets recommendation.

Congratulations on the other 3!!!
 

Sonja (161.184.204.218)
Posted on Thursday, August 23, 2001 - 12:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Kelly,
We live in Alberta, Canada, and the breeding season is pretty much over after this last attempt. At least we will have the winter to figure out what to do next if she doesn't catch and keep her foal this time. She is worth the time and effort and I appreciate all your help on this one, at least it gives me a few different options....
 

Noble Knight (206.157.249.101)
Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2001 - 03:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sonja, I agree with both Kelly and Rabbit, try to use your vet, and strongly consider the cyst removal. The removal procedure helps for a few years (your breeding lease) but the underlying condition will still exist and is probably a hormonal imbalance. I also don't think that the cyst are "making her think she is pregnant". I have and have bred mares with mild to terrible cyst problems and have never had any real problems settling (two cycles at most, one 21 year old maiden with simalar procedures on 3rd try) or detecting pregnancy within 30 days.

Embryo transfer will give you a better chance of pregnancy due to the placement of the embryo in a healthy portion of the uterus and it is not considered AI as suggested in a previous post.

The protocol of the proposed breeding (Lutalyse, oxytocin/regumate?, flushing) sounds a little off but is a common procedure for a difficult mare with cysts. Ask what the exact procedure/protocol used will be, contact your repro. vet and ask for their opinion/recommendation.

Tuhotmos daughters usually have foals with beautiful heads, good conformation and intelligence. I have had no personal experience with the stallions offspring but think your efforts are well worth it. I sure hope it works out for you Sonja.
 

Sonja (161.184.204.57)
Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2001 - 03:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Noble Knight!!!
I will keep you all updated on any further develoments!!! Sonja
 

Anonymous
Posted From: 210.10.206.165
Posted on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 10:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a 17yearold mare that hasnt had a foal in 10 years due to being successfully shown. She taken to the stallion, and this quiet like mellow little mare couldnt get enough of him, weeing and winking at the very tough of him. She was in heat for 10days.. She was then tested at 17days, and we were told she was full of cyst and there was no way of telling if she was in foal. and to retest her in 14 days and if she was in foal there is 95% chance that she will loose as we not be able to carry full term. We have also bein told to forget ever breeding this again. This is very sad as she has great blood lines and is such a beauitful mare, Any suggestion?
 

Jos
Posted From: 165.121.193.75
Posted on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 10:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Get a vet experienced in equine reproduction.

Cysts in themselves are rarely (not never, but rarely) a cause of failure of pregnancy, plus the mare should have had the cysts "mapped" using ultrasound before breeding, so that when the preg. check was performed the map could have been referenced and you would have probably been able to tell whether the "blob" was a pregnancy or a cyst.

So... go for a second opinion from a Theriogenologist (a veterinarian certified in reproduction).
 

Sally
Posted From: 61.68.246.106
Posted on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 12:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I dont want to sound silly, but never having delt with a mare with cyst before and it all sounds doom and gloom! What is the likelyhood of a mare with mass amounts of cysts holding a foal full term and will she be in any pain (abnormal). Is there any treament that we should try, we live in Western Australia. We think she is about 19days in foal she is due for a second ultrasound in 10 days the is not hopeful.
 

Jos
Posted From: 165.121.168.176
Posted on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 09:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One cannot predict a general percentage of mares with cysts maintaining a pregnany, as a lot will depend upon size, position etc. As I noted above, they are not usually a problem in themselves, although they may be an indicator of other endometrial (uterine lining) problems. The easiest way, if you want to get a better handle on likelihood of a successful pregnancy outcome, is to have an endometrial biopsy sample taken and evaluated. This will give you a solid figure, although of course nothing is absolute in equine reproduction! Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately!) for this pregnancy, you cannot do this, as the mare must be "open" to take the sample.

Treatment cannot be performed while the mare is pregnant either. And even if she were not pregnant, it is not necessarily worth trying in all cases. If you have large cysts, then laser removal may be worth trying. As I also said above though, if they are not bothering you, you are probably better off not bothering them - in other words, cysts are not necessarily the "kiss of death" that mare owners often consider them to be.

If the cysts are small, but numerous, then they are not likely to be a problem to pregnancy maintenance until after about 45 days, when implantation of the fetus is occurring. Prior to that, the embryo is not trying to absorb nutrition via the lining of the uterus, so it is not likely to be a problem.



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