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Pregnant Mare Showing Heat??

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Breeding Problem Mares - Volume 1 » Pregnant Mare Showing Heat?? « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

username (204.253.61.135)
Posted on Friday, June 08, 2001 - 07:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a 19 year old Arabian mare that was ultrasounded at 16 days pregnant, but showing heat to every stallion around. Her cervix was a little bit open and her uterus wasn't the best, but it was a solid pregnancy. We put her on regumate for 5 days and then re-ultrasounded her. The image looked smaller and fainter, and the vets didn't give her a good diagnosis. Her cervix had closed up good at that point. We took her off of regumate to see what she would do, and she came back into heat. We let her go back out of heat. Now she is showing heat again...I can only assume she's cycling again...but my vet said some mares may do this?? Is this possible?

Thanks.
Tara.
 

Horse Pro (207.16.106.31)
Posted on Friday, June 08, 2001 - 10:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes it is possible, however with all the things indicated it would be wise to have another ultrasound done.

HP
 

KC (205.188.200.21)
Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 10:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with horse pro. She will probably be better off being re examined. However, I have a paint mare due next month that has basically been in heat since she was bred 10 months ago! The sad thing is, she would let any of the studs in the barn breed her now. I was convinced over the winter she lost the baby so we had her checked. Much to my surprise, she was still pregnant. Just goes to show, the are very odd animals.
 

corrydvm (64.199.2.17)
Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 11:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yep, some mares will show heat even while pregnant. They have enough Estrogen that they will even allow mounting.
 

Kelly (63.172.47.181)
Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2001 - 11:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know of one mare that allowed mounting and penetration at appoximately 9 or 10 months into the pregnancy. It was a sad occasion when a fully formed, beautiful colt was found aborted in their field. They have since chosen to ultra sound any suspected pregnant mares.
 

Jacqueline Kilmer (198.81.17.168)
Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2001 - 05:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a mare that is supposedly 5 months pregnant. We have never confirmed her pregnancy with a vet. My ? is this can she be pregnant and still come into heat? Our vet said it is very rare for mares to do that especially since she has had estrus for the last three months. Is there any amatuer ways that we could do our selfs to see if she is pregnant? I need to know if she is our not because I plan on breeding her in O ctober of this year(2001). She is very flirtatious when she comes into heat to our stallion(Fast Easy Cash) and winks and squats and even flirts and squats to her pasture mate arabian gelding. Any advice and things I myself can do to see if she is really pregnant would be greatly appreciated.

Jacqueline Kilmer
 

Kelly (63.172.47.186)
Posted on Saturday, June 23, 2001 - 08:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As you have probably noticed from the previous postings, a bred mare can show signs of heat.

It would be best to have an ultrasound to determine a pregnancy, as well as to best prepare her to breed to your own stallion. Many problems can be avoided by having a breeding soundness exam.
 

cindy nolan (207.144.168.19)
Posted on Monday, June 25, 2001 - 09:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HI! I was reading about the pregant mares showing heat, and I have a question...I have a 3yo maiden mare I have bred twice this season. I haven't ultrasounded her, I was teasing her with my miniature stud--she'd show heat, and I'd take her to the stallion. Anyway, she was bred last about 2mos ago, she'd shown signs again, and I was going to give up for this year, when i noticed this morning it looks like she is developing a bag (not much, but noticable from a distance). Then I noticed that little stud trying to nurse her, and I am wondering now if she could be bred or if these is some hormonal surge, or what? Any ideas?
 

jacqueline kilmer (152.163.195.186)
Posted on Saturday, July 21, 2001 - 08:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I had posted a previous message on this page. Since then I have noticed that the area on the sides of her tail is squishy and when her teats are gently squeezed a white milkish substance comes from both of them. Also since she still is coming into heat I have noticed that towards the last couple of days of her cycle a clearly visible white substance is around the lips of her vulva . What is the substance ? I will be having her ultrasounded this following week hopefully. But I would still like to hear what you guys think(wether she is pregnant or not). If she is pregnant she would be between late 4 -6 months pregnant. Thanks in advance.
 

Cheryl (24.247.84.199)
Posted on Friday, February 01, 2002 - 10:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I too have a 5 year old paint mare whom when I bought her was supposedly bred. She came in heat shortly after I got her home and then continued to come in heat regularly, aprox every 20 days. If she was bred she'd be about 9 1/2 months preg now. She is starting to get a belly that wiggles when she walks. She is a long bodied mare and could easily be hiding a foal in there. I am now wondering if maybe she is pregnant? If she is she'd be due the beginning of April. I see on this board that some mare continue to come in heat even after they are bred. I was sure she wasn't preg becasue she came into heat and really showed to my friends Arab gelding, but with her belly I am begining to wonder now.
 

TSQH (198.107.233.26)
Posted on Friday, February 01, 2002 - 11:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just a thought, Have a vet palpate her. That way you will know if you should be getting ready for a foal. I also have a mare that acts like she is in heat every month even when she is in foal.
 

Cathy (63.156.232.60)
Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 05:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a friend whose mare was ultra sounded in foal, but at 27 days the baby was behind 10days. Then at 57 days, the baby was behind 7 days in size. She shows no physical evidence of being in heat, but is showing heat signs, winking, squatting and standing. The pregancy looks good except the size is not consistent with the days and she is showing heat. We know the exact day because she was bred with frozen semen. Should she worry?
 

Jos (67.227.220.121)
Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 10:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No.
 

Marie
Posted From: 209.191.196.187
Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 12:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My horse, a maiden mare, is due to have a baby the beginning of this month,but showed signs of heat yesterday. She's never been checked for a foal,but is bagging up and is getting very sensitive by her hind end. This is unlike her. Her do date is coming up soon. Should I be worried?
 

Sandy
Posted From: 4.227.172.122
Posted on Saturday, April 03, 2004 - 12:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Marie,
As you can see from previous posts, it is not uncommon for a mare to act as though she is in heat during pregnancy. I wouldn't worry.
 

Dana Sizemore (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 207.69.137.138
Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 06:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am having a similar problem with my mare. Glad to see I'm not alone, but at this point I think I'm just grasping at straws. My mare was bred AI 5/05/04 and ultrasounded in foal 5/24/04, due 4/02/05, she still hasn't foaled. With all the late foaling this year, I wasn't too worried, just getting a little anxious for the baby. She is huge (all belly) and the milk veins on her belly are full. None has moved to her udder yet, but it didn't with her last foal until after foaling, so that's no big deal with me either, I can get a few drops of milk out of her udders, so I know she has it. The thing is, when I fed her this evening, she turned around to her hay, lifted her tail and started winking at me! No other signs of heat are there, no squalling, squatting, or anything. She is stalled next to my stallion and I have watched her since last year for any real signs of heat and she showed nothing after she was bred!!! No screaming, flirting or anything towards him until today when she started winking, and like jacqueline kilmer posted on an earlier post, she had a white substance dripping out of her, which I have only seen in mares dead in heat. I have been thinking of having a vet palpate her to be sure since she is 12 months and 3 days today, but with my job and such, it's hard for me to make arrangements. So, am I grasping straws in hopes for a baby or is this mare just playing games with me? Anyone else have a mare to do this??? I have known of mares to show heat all pregnancy long, so I am hoping against hope that she is just being a mare and is still pregnant and just very late with this baby. Any thoughts would be appreciated!
 

Diane
Neonate
Username: Horse_collector

Post Number: 5
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 02:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

one of my mares decided to come back into heat a few years ago after being breed. I had her checked 3 different times. The 3rd time, the foal could not be felt via palpation nor could it be seen via ultrasound. I finally did a blood test and it came back positive for pregnancy. The filly was FIVE weeks late and we finally induced labor. That was the most expensive foal I've ever had. Now I have another mare whom I bred last month and was very receptive to the stallion, but she seems to be in heat ALL the time. She now switches her tail when teased and tries to kick at him. I'm having her checked this weekend. You could collect the blood yourself and send it into the vet to see if she's pregnant. It's just a lab fee, but considering that she's this late, I would make the time to get the vet out there and see that everything is okay. Perhaps induce labor. You don't want the foal to grow too much bigger or the mare will have complications. If you get her checked, this will end the "unknown".
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10096
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 09:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

DO NOT INDUCE LABOUR BECAUSE A MARE IS "LATE"!

Only under very specific medical requirements should labour be induced. There is a tremendous increase in risk to the mare and foal with labour induction. And remember:

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A "DUE DATE" IN THE MARE

I think that with respect to "overdue concerns" a review of the article on our site Is My Mare Overdue? may be very valuable. As you will gather, I cannot stress my observations above strongly enough!

I would certainly encourage a veterinary evaluation though! And as noted above, mares can show estrus (heat) and still be pregnant.



 

Diane
Neonate
Username: Horse_collector

Post Number: 8
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 02:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Inducing is what my vet had recommended with my mare and may or may not be advisable for other mares. I wasn't too sure about it, but after he palpated her again, he could feel the filly's head in the right place and said we should induce. As already stated, it would be best to have the vet come out and see if both mare and foal are okay. You'll need to make the time if it's important to you or have a friend meet the vet in your place.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10102
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 09:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

While having the foal in a correct position is desirable, there are other factors that need to be met before inducing foaling in a mare without there being an ongoing emergency situation causing its immediate use:
  • Minimum 335 days gestation;
  • Adequate amounts of colostrum in mare’s udder;
  • Cervix must be relaxed;
  • The milk CaCO3 content is greater than 250 PPM with an inversion of the sodium and potassium concentrations (potassium concentration rises above sodium and sodium concentrations markedly drop below potassium);
All four criteria should be met before labour is induced except in emergency situations.

Being "overdue" is not an emergency unless other factors beyond duration have been identified as a problem!

Induction without all of these criteria being met significantly increases the chances or producing a premature foal, or experiencing other complications that can potentially be life-threatening to the mare and/or foal. Induction of parturition in the equine should not be entered into lightly!
 

Diane
Neonate
Username: Horse_collector

Post Number: 9
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 03:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jos, Would you like the name and phone number of my vet so that you can ask him exactly WHY he induced labor on my mare 2 years ago???? I put all my trust in my vet as I had no where else to turn to and he's never given me any reason not to trust him. What else was I supposed to do??????? I'm not quite sure why you continue to want to school me on this. 3 out of 4 were present, not sure about the 4th! Both mare and filly were fine. Filly was HUGE, and her ears were folded over from being cramped. She also refused to lay down for the first 5 days, after she finally stood up for the first time.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10103
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 09:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, of course I don't want your vet's number, and I find the offer, frankly, somewhat insulting. I would suggest though that if you don't know why he was inducing labour, you might want to ask him - it's your horse!! :-)

I am not posting responses with an intention of "schooling you". Please remember that this site is visited by thousands of people daily, and they seek reliable information here. You were fortunate with your inductions - most are not. Were I not to respond with the accurate information about risks, those other people that are visiting this site and see only your posts, where you were fortunate enough to have a successful outcome, might well go away with the impression that it is indeed safe and practical to induce labour and that it is the way to go. The end result is that there would pretty certainly be a disaster - because of something that was read on this site. We spend a huge amount of time attempting to assist the breeding public - we would be deeply upset if such a happening occurred!

I appreciate that you may have had no option but to rely on your veterinarian - but it is an unfortunate fact that veterinarians are not always correct in what they do or how they do it. Some in fact are scaringly incorrect. If you want further information on this particular topic and it's risks, pretty much any Theriogenologist will be able to provide more than enough depressing information.

I'm sorry if you feel that you were being targeted, you weren't - but your comments were. I hope you can understand our position with respect to making sure that the correct and accurate information is available to people and that they do completely understand the significant risks and are not relying on one persons fortunate outcome upon which to base their decision to induce.
 

Anonymous
 
Posted From: 207.69.139.8
Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 08:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have 2 grass fat pony mares that I can not ever catch them showing signs of being in. They have not been exposed to a stallion and I have them in a pen a few feet away from a stallion. Could being fat cause them not to cycle? They are on a hay diet now and have lost a little weight.
 

Jenny
Neonate
Username: Medicjen

Post Number: 4
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 02:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

can a mare be pregnant, miss a heat cycle, and then show signs of heat again three weeks after her expected heat cycle?? Is she pregnant?? My mare is being so confusing. I took my 19 year old APHA broodmare to Iowa to be breed. Spent a large amount of money keeping her there in the process. She apparently would not stand for pasture breeding. I had always "in hand" live covered her in the past. The breeders did in hand breeding along with ultrasound before the in hand breeding. The vet stated that she should reliese the egg that day or the next. He also gave her a shot to make her release the egg, just in case. That vet said there was no reason she should not become pregnant that time. due to time constrants and cost i brought the mare home without waiting for an ultra sound to confirm. The mare should have come back into heat the first part of june. She did not. However she is acting as if she is in a standing heat right now. She is actually backing up to my other mare. Can someone help me understand this???
thank you
 

Diane
Neonate
Username: Horse_collector

Post Number: 10
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 05:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jenny, I would recommend having her ultrasounded again asap so you know for sure. There is a possibility of her still be pregnant and showing heat (I have a mare like this), or that she slipped the pregnancy. Or, that she never took at all and didn't come into heat or you just missed it. With the strange weather and seasonal patterns lately, my mares have all been off their normal cycles.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10178
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, June 22, 2005 - 05:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jenny: Your questions are already answered at the other location on this board where you are asking them.
 

Jenny
Neonate
Username: Medicjen

Post Number: 5
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 03:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I took my mare to the vet yesterday. He palpated her and stated he felt "something" in the right horn of her uteris. he told me he was unable to be positive at this time but he thought she was pregnant. He dose not normally work with mare that are this earily and stated that once she was further along he would be able to tell for sure. Could the "something" he felt be just fluid or is it most likely a foal??
 

Sandy D
Yearling
Username: Sbr_appaloosas

Post Number: 68
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 01:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am kind of experiencing the same problem as Jenny. My 11 year old TB mare was bred live cover May 25, 27. I checked her with the stallion 18 days later on June 14, no signs of heat. She was checked again with the stallion at 24 days post breeding on June 20, no heat. We checked her again at 29 days, yesterday June 25, and at first she was striking out with her front legs, screaming, pinning her ears, swishing her tail. After approx. 3 minutes of the stud teasing her, she began winking, raising her tail and squirting. So we let the stud try to breed her, and she went nuts when he tried to mount, kicking at him. Once he finally mounted her she continued squealing and once he was just about done, she flipped out, began pulling back, trying to kick, the whole nine yards. I don't think he did actually ejaculate inside her because she practically sat down and he came out. I have owned this mare for 8 years, have bred her 4 other times in that period (resulting in two live, healthy foals and one slipped foal at 4 months and one absorbtion) and she has never acted like this. Is something possibly changing with her, or is she pregnant and being weird, or is she in heat and being weird? I normally have my mares palpated after the 30 day mark to confirm pregnancy, but as I say, we haven't quite hit that mark yet.
 

TX Breeder (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 199.3.209.214
Posted on Sunday, June 26, 2005 - 10:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Only ultra sound at 16 days would help you to know what her status is.

My guess would be that she had indeed taken, and may have been responding in a submissive behavior to the stallion. The fact that she was acting out of character for her seems to point in that direction. There is a possibiliy that if she were pregnant at 30 days and the stallion did penetrate, the pregnancy could be knocked. At this late date in the year, you could be looking at months down the road to re breed her.

Nothing saves time, money and worry like an ultra sound at 16 days. I hope that it turns out well for you.
 

Sandy D
Yearling
Username: Sbr_appaloosas

Post Number: 69
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 12:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We re-checked the mare again this evening, and this time she instantly began showing strong signs of heat. She stood quietly while the stallion mounted and bred her... so my guess is that she is having a true heat and maybe she just wasn't fully in the last time.
I will be having her ultra sounded this time around for sure. She absorbed on me last year and did not come back into heat until Sept. and I cannot have this mare going open for another year.
I will keep the board updated so that it may be of help to other folks.
 

donkey girl (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 170.215.8.74
Posted on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 12:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I bought a new jenny donkey about a month ago and she was supposed to be pregnancy checked in May as bred.She was very thin when I got her and has since put on weight and is starting to get a belly.She is supposed to be due this month sometime but is showing heat.I read that they can show heat, but even this late? My mini jack got out earlier and was trying to mount her-she was letting him most of the time, I'm worried this could cause her to abort her foal?She runs with a standard jack but he does not try to mount her.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10214
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 09:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Estrus display may continue throughout some pregnancies. If the jack is achieving intromission during breeding, then yes there is potential for pregnancy disruption if the jenny is still pregnant. Having your vet perform a rectal palpation may be a valuable tool for you to determine pregnancy status and take the guesswork out of if you need to be present to make sure the foaling goes OK!
 

Tina Schultz
Neonate
Username: Namhorse

Post Number: 1
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2005 - 12:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi everyone,

I need some good horsey advice! In September last year I purchased a 10 year old Anglo-Arab mare. She had a full medical check and was confirmed fertile but she has never had a foal, as she was only used as a riding horse.
When she was offloaded there was a stallion and she emidiately showed signs of being on heat. The stallion happened to be the brother of the stallion that is ment to cover her. Anyways, when I put her together with my stallion two weeks after she was on heat with the other stallion she refused to let my stallion near her... he is quite a bit smaller than her as he is a pure arab. She kicked him so badly that his nose was bleeding and he had bumps all over his body. She has now continuesly been with my stallion for a good 9 months and showing signs of being on heat again (but she still wont let the stallion near her). When the stallion is not interested in covering her she gets along with him very well??? People say that she defenately looks pregnant but I'm not so sure. I never actualy saw the stallion cover her. Is it possible that she is pregnant?
 

Sandy D
Yearling
Username: Sbr_appaloosas

Post Number: 90
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 01:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Update on TB mare.
Last live cover was on 7/3. Had U/S done on 7/19 and vet found a 35 follicle on left ovary. We teased the mare right then with the stallion and there was no sign of heat. We waited a day teased again, no sign of heat. Waited another day, teased, slight signs of heat but would not accept stallion.
Started teasing mare again on 8/4 which should have been her next cycle. No signs of heat and as of today 8/6 still no signs of heat. This is 18 days after vet had found 35 follicle. But during this waiting time I did notice that my mare will show somewhat signs of heat when approached by the stallion by peeing and slight winking. But all the while she is screaming, striking and swishing her tail.
How can you tell the difference between submissive behavior and actual signs of heat? My mare has never shown submissive behavior before and it was always more than obvious when she was in heat, but now she has me guessing. Is it really heat... or is it submission?
I had assumed when the vet found a 35 follicle on last U/S that meant she was indeed in heat, but Jos has mentioned in another post that mares can be pregnant and still have a follicle that size.
Needless to say, I am getting beyond frustrated with this mare. I would like to have her preg checked again, but I feel as though I might be wasting my time and money if she is indeed found open and supposedly in heat, but will not let the stallion mount. I have already done one "forced breeding" this year for a client's mare and it wasn't a whole lot of fun.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10255
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 11:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How can you tell the difference between submissive behavior and actual signs of heat?

By ultrasound :-)

I had assumed when the vet found a 35 follicle on last U/S that meant she was indeed in heat

Absolutely not!! Mares can develop mid-cycle follicles (and some will even ovulate), and of course pregnant mares can also develop follicles - indeed those follicles play an important part in pregnancy maintenance up until about day 120 or so.

I would like to have her preg checked again, but I feel as though I might be wasting my time and money if she is indeed found open and supposedly in heat

I suspect that you are experiencing a bit of a problem with the ultrasonographer perhaps not having a tremendous amount of experience? An experienced ultrasonographer should have no trouble identifying a +/- 30 day pregnant mare... If that is the case, it might be worth looking for a second opinion from another vet. There are also definitive signs per ultrasound that a mare is in estrus, so there should not be a question about where the mare is in her cycle (or pregnancy!).

I'd have her checked again if I were you...
 

cathy Cook
Neonate
Username: Razmacat

Post Number: 6
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 06:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I always thought it was one of the requirements of pregnancy to develop follicles....I would only induce at a clinic. for they are more prepared for severe dystocias etc...there. I have had many repro specialists work for me and never had one suggest inducing a labor. Whenever I get antsy they always tell me to sit back and wait mother nature is in control.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10259
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 08:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Most mares will develop secondary follicles that ovulate or luteinize between about days 36 and 90 of pregnancy, but not all do. In some [rare] mares, the primary CL undergoes luteal resurgence and is the sole source of progesterone during that time frame. As I say, it's rare, but can happen.
 

Lisa Weir
Neonate
Username: Pals_pal

Post Number: 1
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 07:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh the joys of mares! I work on a TB stud and have seen so many different behaviours from mare to mare, and even in the same mare, that I no longer think anything is impossible!
Two things are imperitve in my opinion: teasing thouroughly and regularly and a good vet with a scanner.
We have had trouble with mares being sent for cover, with the "perfect follicle" that "must be covered today" only to find she won't stand until 3 days later. These mares are usually from people who don't have access to a good teaser. And by good, I mean one that knows the difference!
In my opinion, if your mare is acting totally out of the norm, and you aren't experienced enough to figure it out, it's cheaper to find a vet who can, than possibly make a mistake that can be damaging. A stitch in time....etc.
 

cathy Cook
Nursing Foal
Username: Razmacat

Post Number: 12
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 07:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I always joke with my vet saying my teaser knows more about mares than any vet in Ocala. We tease every single day in breedingseason. He is turned out in his vacation field right now. He is good as gold though. I can take him up to a mare who shows like she is out and he will insist on hanging out and sure as all he will keep teasing and she is in. Then there are the ones he walks sort of near and grabs a mouth of grass, they are way out. My vet told me a mare was empty this year via ultrasound and I kept teasing her waiting for a cycle and she teased just like an in foal mare so we rechecked and she was indeed in foal. I don't know what people do without good teasers...emphasis on good cause I kissed a lot of toads before him.
 

Sandy D
Yearling
Username: Sbr_appaloosas

Post Number: 93
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 01:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have teased this mare quite regularly and no matter when I tease her, whether she should be cycling or not, her behavior is the same. She screams, strikes out but then will turn her butt to the stud, swish her tail from side to side like she's NOT in heat, but then begin winking and squirting. All the while definitely saying "no." As I say, this is not normal behavior for this mare. I have owned her for 8 years now and every year when we tease her, if she wasn't in heat, she displayed absolutely no winking or squirting. And if she was in heat, she would not scream and strike out.
I am thinking of using the PregnaMare test kit on her at this point as she would be 40+ days from last breeding. It would cost me about the same as it would to take her to the vet for another ultrasound. Plus it would save me the 40 mile round trip. But is it reliable?
 

Diane
Nursing Foal
Username: Horse_collector

Post Number: 11
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 01:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sandy, Have you ever done a uterine culture on this mare? I had a maiden come to my ranch that acted the same way. We finally got her bred, but not without a huge fight and restraints. I find out now from her owners vet that she has a unterine infection. Not sure, but maybe this could be why she's acting the way she is. OR, she is in deed pregnant. I have a mare that is pregnant, but still cycles.
 

Sandy D
Yearling
Username: Sbr_appaloosas

Post Number: 94
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 05:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Diane,
I have not had the mare cultured as of yet. When she was u/s'ed at 16 days post breeding, the vet said there was not any fluid present in the uterus and there was good tone. He said that if we were unable to get her in foal this year that we should definitely have her cultured.
I have ordered the PregnaMare kit, it should arrive on Tuesday. I will wait to see what it says, and if it is a negative, then I will have her cultured.
What I'm wondering is since this mare has never displayed any type of estrus before while pregnant, is it something that can just all of a sudden start? With your mare that shows signs of heat during pregnancy, has she always been that way?
 

cathy Cook
Nursing Foal
Username: Razmacat

Post Number: 13
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 10:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What you are describing is what we call the "Mad Piss" but not really in heat. A mare who is showing in heat is not kicking or striking.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10268
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 08:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It sounds as though your mare is not displaying estrus ("heat") but rather is displaying submissive behaviour to the stallion. This is not an unusual situation.

Be aware that the Pregnamare kit assays for equine chorionic gonadotropin (eCG) which is secreted after the endometrial cups have grown in at about day 36. In the event that the mare loses the pregnancy after the secretion of eCG is started, she will still secrete the hormone, and that assay test will show her as being pregnant even though she isn't. You would do better to have her ultrasounded by someone that knows what they are doing. It will tell you a lot more and is far more reliable.
 

Sandy D
Yearling
Username: Sbr_appaloosas

Post Number: 95
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 02:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you for the words of advice...it's appreciated.
I felt as though I have had this mare ultrasounded by someone who knew what they were doing, as this vet has never missed a pregnancy before in the 13 years I have worked with him. But it is the mare's behaviors that have me second guessing him.
If it is indeed submissive behavior, why would she start this all of a sudden as she has never done this before in the 8 years I have owned her? I guess that is the biggest question I have.

I do know there are mares who are silent heat mares, as I dealt with a client's mare this year who was that way. She was a maiden, never exhibited signs of estrus in any way. Had her u/s'ed and vet found a 35 follicle although she showed absolutely no signs of heat whatsoever. We gave her the shot to make her ovulate and had to do a forced breeding, sedation, hobbles, twitch, the whole nine yards. We are still waiting to hear from the owner whether or not she settled.
So, there are mares who will strike and kick eventhough they are indeed in season. But I don't think this is the case with my own mare, as she has never been a "silent heat" mare before.
 

Lisa Weir
Neonate
Username: Pals_pal

Post Number: 9
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 09:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sandy, mares with infections don't always have fluid in their uterus. We see hundreds of mares each year and there are always a few "dirty ones" that appear normal on scan and to look at. Because of the value of the horses we breed, all mares are swabbed before cover.
Infections can alter behaviour. One old hussy comes to mind. The biggest tart in the world, but last time she was showing, but very nasty, striking, etc. The swab showed a very bad infection, which needed heavy antibiotics.
I would suggest getting the swab before wasting more time and money on going through it all again.
 

Sandy D
Yearling
Username: Sbr_appaloosas

Post Number: 96
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 12:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Lisa,
That's very interesting about your "hussy" mare who started to show signs of aggressiveness because of infection.
I guess that could be a possibility for the change in my mare's behavior, or she is indeed pregnant.
I teased her yesterday, eventhough I know that according to her cycling pattern she should not be in heat at this time, just to see what she would do. When she first was lead up to the stallion she screamed, striked with front legs, hopped up and down on her rear end and swished her tail, after a minute she began winking and squirting, all the while still screaming and striking.... after about 5 minutes or more of the stallion talking to her, she no longer was winking and squirting, but acting like a normal mare who is not in heat. So, I am beginning to think this could definitely be submissive behavior.
The PregnaMare kit should arrive on Tuesday, I will test her with that, and if it is negative, I will be taking her to have her cultured. If she does have an infection, how long do they have to stay on treatment before trying to rebreed? I really don't want to leave this mare open this year, eventhough it is late in the season, if I can still get her bred, I will do it.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10269
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 09:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would not rely on the results of a Pregnamare kit to make the decision to go ahead and swab the uterus. In the event that there is a false negative (which is less likely than a false positive, but can till happen), and you proceed with passing a culture swab through the cervix, the mare will almost certainly lose the pregnancy.

I'd make sure to have an ultrasound done before swabbing...
 

Sandy D
Yearling
Username: Sbr_appaloosas

Post Number: 98
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 06:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the word of advice. I will definitely make sure to have a U/S done prior to any swabbing.
I guess in any event, no matter the results of the PregnaMare kit, I will be having a U/S done, even if it comes back a positive, since I do realize there is a higher incidence of a false positive reading rather than a false negative. This will just let me know whether or not I have to look forward to the added expense of a culture also. If she does come back a false positive, then I know I can wait until next year to get started on this mare again, rather than being in a hurry to try to get her rebred. As I'm sure if she was indeed pregnant and lost the pregnancy, my chances of getting her back in season this year are fairly slim.
 

Sandy D
Breeding Stock
Username: Sbr_appaloosas

Post Number: 103
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 04:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I performed the PregnaMare test on my mare today, and the results came back Positive.
I am hoping that she is indeed bred, which would solve a lot of the confusion of why her behaviors have been the way they are.
I know Jos had mentioned earlier that if the pregnancy has been lost after day 36 that the test can still come back positive, and we are at day 44 today, so that would have to mean that she would have lost the pregnancy within the last week or so. I still don't understand why the pregnancy wasn't detected on ultrasound on day 16. If she lost the pregnancy prior to the day 16 ultrasound, would the PregnaMare test still give a false positive? Or would the pregnancy have to be lost after day 36 for a false positive reading?
Of course this may be a true positive reading also, I guess the only way to know for sure is to have her examined again. Should I go for a palpation or an ultrasound at this point?
 

Lisa Weir
Nursing Foal
Username: Pals_pal

Post Number: 19
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 09:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not sure how your vet works, but ours has a scanner which he brings for every visit during breeding season. He tells us how it feels and then confirms by scan. Worth his weight in gold! He was doing this before scanners and was the best around at that time, I believe.
Just to be on the safe side, I'd go for the ultrasound. The vet can have a good look at the pregnancy and make sure there are not twins involved.
We have had a few 16 day pregnancies not show up on the scanner, but our vet has said that she feels in foal at this point. He will always re check them after a few days and usually finds what he felt.
As for swabbing, the only time to do it is when the mare is in season, anyway. Otherwise you don't get a good, honest result. No vet worth his salt would try to get in a closed cervix, surely!
 

Sue Corey (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 165.121.144.107
Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 12:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does anyone know what the percentage rate of false negatives on a Pregna-Mare test are? I had my mare bred on June 26th and tested her on Aug.8th but it was negative. I was sure she was pregnant because she hasn't gone into heat since I've had her bred. Am I wasting my money on an ultrasound?
 

Lisa Weir
Weanling
Username: Pals_pal

Post Number: 22
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 09:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is my humble opinion that you never waste money on an ultrasound. It not only confirms pregnancy, but identifies twins and that is a godsend in itself!
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10285
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 12:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ummm... well... I think the value depends greatly on ultrasonographer ability and suitability of equipment... :-)

Assuming a good technician with good equipment I'd agree with you Lisa, but we do hear and see horror stories each year with people who have definitely wasted their time and money on having their mares ultrasounded by someone that doesn't know what they're doing...

Just wanted to clarify a position that I suspect you also share - don't want people thinking that ALL ultrasounds are of value, even those by incompetent persons... :-(
 

Lisa Weir
Weanling
Username: Pals_pal

Post Number: 23
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 10:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, I agree. I forget not every vet is as good as the ones we use.
We've heard stories, too, and had a few situations with vanned mares.
Our rules are now that any mare sent for cover must be seen by vets we approve first. And they are the best in the state, without question.
I really need to learn to word things better.
 

Sandy D
Breeding Stock
Username: Sbr_appaloosas

Post Number: 110
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 07:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sue,
I don't know what the percentage is on false negatives with the PregnaMare.. maybe their website might give that information.
My mare tested positive with it on day 45, eventhough I was told on day 16 ultrasound that she was not pregnant. I have not had her re-checked by the vet at this point because she has not exhibited any signs of heat whatsoever since her last breeding on top of the positive result from PregnaMare. Eventhough I have to say that for some funny reason I am still doubting that this mare is pregnant. But I will treat her as though she is and hopefully next summer we have a foal out of her.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10289
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 10:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The likelihood of a false positive with the mare was checked "open" at 16 days is low - it would be more likely if she had been confirmed in foal and then lost it after the formation of the endometrial cups around day 36. The percentage accuracy WRT to false positives is suggested I believe as being at 96% (i.e. 4% error). The error ratio for false negatives is not advertised on their web site.
 

Sue Corey
Neonate
Username: Sue_corey

Post Number: 1
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Saturday, September 03, 2005 - 06:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

First of all I just want to say how much I enjoy this message board. I stayed up half the night last night reading it! I came across the "nail test" under the thread of Myth or Truth? I thought "Why not?" and tried it......the nail went in a circle. Pregnant with a filly?
I'm still going to go ahead and get an ultrasound. My next question is when will she be past the point of absorbtion? 100 days? Should I wait until then?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10297
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, September 04, 2005 - 11:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually, there is no such thing as absorption/reabsorption/absorbtion (call it what you will!)!! :-)

The tissue from ALL pregnancy losses ends up going out through the cervix - fluid may be absorbed, but tissue is not. One doesn't see this tissue (usually) as it is so miniscule that it is not easily apparent.

The greatest rate of pregnancy loss occurs prior to about day 35 ("early embryonic death" or "EED"), but there is still loss after that too.
 

Regina (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 71.105.140.159
Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 02:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi everyone I just found this group right now. I have a mare that was bred July 4th. I teased her at 15 and 21 days and every other day after 21 up to 45 days. She never came back in season. It has been about 3 and a half months since I saw her come into season and we just got a new gelding. We have had the gelding for a week and a half now and the other 2 mare have already come into and outta heat due to his presence. Well today I noticed my bred mare is in strong heat. She is all over the stall tring to get to him. I have not got a vet check to conferm yet. Just would like to know what you all think. Do you think she is in foal or not. I plan on getting a vet check on her. Thank You
Regina
 

Jan H. (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 68.45.224.165
Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 10:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Getting a vet check is really the way to know for sure. My mare who is now nearly 7 months along acted like she was in heat when ever my gelding got around her, but she has been checked numerous times and is still in foal. I believe Jos had mentioned that mares during the middle stages of pregnancy have a hormone surge that can cause them to exhibit signs of estrus even if they are in foal.
 

Shantelle J. (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 199.212.150.16
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 02:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I bred my TB mare AI on July 26, 2005, had her on regumate for 14 days, ultrasounded on day 14, and vet says open, says he sees a small cyst that had developed but didn't think it was a pregnancy. Vet said I should take her off regumate and she should come into a strong heat shortly after. I had decided not to try again as late in the season (live in Canada). Never came into heat, and hasn't come into heat since. (very obvious when in heat, and my gelding responds to her also very strongly, letting down/flehman response etc) I am wondering, when discontinuing regumate, will they definitely come into an obvious heat after that? Or could it be that it was later in the season (july didn't seem that late, she has shown into the fall in the past) so her heat would not have been strong enough to tell? I guess I am trying to determine if it is worthwhile to check her again. I know the only answer is to do so to be sure! any opinions would be appreciated..
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10335
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 09:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

when discontinuing regumate, will they definitely come into an obvious heat after that?

Not if they're pregnant they won't! :-)

Remember that the vast majority of mares that receive Regumate do not actually need it, so my feelings are that it would be well worth you checking this mares pregnancy status again.
 

Shantelle J. (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 199.212.150.16
Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 09:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks JOS! I will be having the vet come out again.. I think I need to satisfy my curiosity at the very least, and of course to follow up with necessary vaccinations and care if needed.. I appreciate you answering my post..
 

Diane
Nursing Foal
Username: Horse_collector

Post Number: 13
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 02:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Jos and everyone. Have any of you had problems with anovulation this year?? I had a mare cycling just fine, then when I bred her, she never came back into heat. She has a totally different personality and is very calm and sweet. I was positive she was in foal. I had her checked at 45 days and the vet said she had a follicle that would mature in about 5 days. Again, she never came back into heat, so I thought maybe something else was up. So I took her back to the vet at 60 days and she was diagnosed with anovulation follicle problem. I guess that's when a mare just stops cycling for unknown reasons and the follicle just sits there? Has anyone heard about this problem or have any info on it? I was just going to turn her out in the pasture with my stallion and hope for the best. The vet said that she may drop the follicle at some point.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10814
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 02:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Check out the article on ANOVULATORY HEMORRHAGIC FOLLICLES on this web site.

Make absolutely sure that the mare is not pregnant, because pregnant mares at the stage you mention will often have what appear to be anovulatory hemorrhagic follicles.
 

Rachael W
Nursing Foal
Username: Lee

Post Number: 11
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 12:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a mare, that had a perfect follicle which I missed breeding (with frozen) as I had to go out of town for 24 hrs. I short cycled her, gave her lutalyse 7 days later. She started developing follicles about 8-9 days after the lutalyse and at about a 35mm all of a sudden the follicle became rippled around the edges. This has now become a 61mm follicle that looks like the craters of the moon. I am assuming this is an anovulatory hemorrhagic follicle. I read the article and per the following line - I can try treating this with lutalyse again?

"These may respond to treatment and resolve if a luteolitic dose of prostaglandin F2á is given."

If so, is 1cc the amount to be administered. Is there something else that would work better? She is now 21 days from her last cycle and 14 days from the 1st shot of lutalyse. She generally ovulates at a 50mm follicle. Throughout this she has had no interest in the teaser stallion - which she usually just loves.



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