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Author Message
 

Jean-Marc Perron
Neonate
Username: Bar77ranch

Post Number: 2
Registered: 03-2009
Posted on Sunday, April 26, 2009 - 06:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

well not sure where to turn,i went and took a horse breeders course last month and my vet happened to be there to for the semen processing part.lol but this is my issue my one stallion about a week ago gave me a concentration of 396 million/ml on a quick check but since then he has declined every collection this is about his 20th collection i guess,he finally gets the job done first go so i am thinking it has nothing to do with that. but he is in a big out side pen and sees the mares at a distance,and he paces steady i rarely see him eat would this affect his concentration that much. He also has alot mor gel than before,but last night collection after he was in the barn all day we noticed he had less gel but his concentration was the worst ever at 59 million/ml on the quick check will it take some time to fix this if in fact that his pacing is the problem? Thank you
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2377
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Monday, April 27, 2009 - 11:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What are the total sperm numbers in the ejaculate? Are they dropping, or remaining approximately the same?
 

Jean-Marc Perron
Neonate
Username: Bar77ranch

Post Number: 3
Registered: 03-2009
Posted on Monday, April 27, 2009 - 07:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

they have been dropping but it went for 317 to 58 billion in a week,but last collection he had alot less gel too. i am going to collect him again tonight and we will see what happens,the semen semed stringy last time,so i guess his ducts might be blocked i was told. but will confirm tonight
 

Jean-Marc Perron
Neonate
Username: Bar77ranch

Post Number: 4
Registered: 03-2009
Posted on Monday, April 27, 2009 - 11:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ok i collected him tonight and it was the worst ever i am using a quick check JR and he had 30 million/ml and need 35. ml for shipping dose. he had lots of Gel and once filtered it was stringy. any ideas would the ducts being blocked be the problem?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2382
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - 11:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I see high concentrations (i.e. >300 m/ml) I am always suspect of the horse being an "accumulator". What happens is that you will get all the dead sperm that have not been released in the urine on the first few collections, and it's not until he's been "cleaned out" by repeatedly collecting him that one gets the true numbers. I strongly suspect you may be seeing that in this situation. What was the motility like on the various collections?

You probably want to plan on collecting this boy on a regular basis even if you're not breeding him, just to keep him cleaned out during the breeding season. Once or twice a week may be enough - you'll have to evaluate it.

As far as the collection being "stringy" After filtering, it sounds as though you need to filter it again as there is still gel fraction present.
 

Jean-Marc Perron
Neonate
Username: Bar77ranch

Post Number: 5
Registered: 03-2009
Posted on Tuesday, April 28, 2009 - 11:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

when we got the reading of 317 he had been collect half a dozen times already. and in the last week he has been collected every second day. so i must have a dud. i am goiing to get the semen evaluated today if i can. the motilty for the first 10 or so collections was very good around 80 to 85% and i tested it for shipping and he still had 10 to 20% at 72hrs. si not sure what the heck is happening.

(Message edited by bar77ranch on April 28, 2009)
 

Jean-Marc Perron
Neonate
Username: Bar77ranch

Post Number: 6
Registered: 03-2009
Posted on Sunday, May 03, 2009 - 12:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

so what actually makes a stallion produce gel. when the vet was here he had a really good collection, we collected on Thursday and had another good collection. then all of a sudden tonight he had low volumne and so so concentraion. he didn't seem all that excited tonight,well he did,but he took off running to the dummy and had to slow him down. does under lights affect a stallion?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2387
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, May 03, 2009 - 11:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gel is in the tail fraction of some ejaculates. It is not clear what causes it's production, although in some cases it may be seen more in the event that the stallion is not "happy" with something in the collection process - AV too hot/too cold; Tease mare not saying nice things; AV handling not satisfactory to him etc.

Having a stallion under lights in the same manner as mares can indeed affect the stallion. The difference though is that a stallion has, in his opinion, a fixed duration of breeding season, so if the start of his "breeding season" (his opinion of) is moved earlier in the year by putting him under lights, then the end of his breeding season will happen earlier, and the quality of ejaculates will start to decline sooner.
 

Jean-Marc Perron
Neonate
Username: Bar77ranch

Post Number: 7
Registered: 03-2009
Posted on Tuesday, May 05, 2009 - 11:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

you'd think thou if he wasn't happy with something in regards to the AV, he would't get it done first time around. would he? we actually leave him in a box stall all day,and put him out for excercise for about 2 to 3 hrs before collection,i am assuming this will affect his performance also. tonight he was all sweated up. the reason he is in the barn is because if he is in his pen outside he will pace all day. this is pretty frustrating already.

(Message edited by bar77ranch on May 05, 2009)
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2396
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, May 06, 2009 - 11:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

you'd think thou if he wasn't happy with something in regards to the AV, he would't get it done first time around.

Not necessarily true... you will often see stallions complete on the first mount, but not "comfortably". Hence, it is still possible that he is not happy with something even though he is collecting.

Something else to look at... Are you saying above that you are keeping him in all day, then turning him out for a while prior to collection? If so, you might want to consider collecting him before turning him out. It may be that the fence-running is adding to the problem, or may even be at the root of the problem. Try and collect him when he's been in the barn and nice and quiet, and see if that makes a difference. Go straight to the mount with a minimum (or no, if possible) teasing, and collect.

What temperature is the inside of your AV at the time of collection? That too can have an impact.

Too, it may not be one single thing, but a combination of multiple things with which he is not happy.
 

Jean-Marc Perron
Neonate
Username: Bar77ranch

Post Number: 8
Registered: 03-2009
Posted on Wednesday, May 06, 2009 - 06:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

your right on that one,he probably isn't happy he has an AV instead of a mare. i know i wouldn't i will try that tonight about the letting him out after collection.

will let you know how that goes.last night i collected him twive first one 60ml volumne with concentration of 80million/ml with less gel than usual. 25 minutes later 20 mls volumne 298 million/ml so much better second time around but less volumne which is understandable.
 

Jean-Marc Perron
Neonate
Username: Bar77ranch

Post Number: 10
Registered: 03-2009
Posted on Wednesday, May 06, 2009 - 11:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

tonight i did what you said,took him out of his stall no teasing. he mounted after washing etc. and gave us 40ml with 58 million/ml not good. To me he just doesn't seem excited enough when things were going decent with him he would pump away like a stud.now he just goes thru the motions. i am going to try and tease him tomorrow a little. tonight he had hardly no gel in the filter.so that was better. so to me thats a sign of improvement?

The tempature of the AV is 50 degress celsius at time of collection. when it was hotter he was flowering alot sooner and would just stop,but thats when he was training i wonder if i should heat her up.

(Message edited by bar77ranch on May 06, 2009)
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2405
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Thursday, May 07, 2009 - 12:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This does sound like a small improvement, but it may be transient.

I notice that you have posted some more details in another thread, wherein you observe that the stallion is only 4 years old. I suspect that this is the primary issue you are dealing with! In essence, you are over-collecting a not-yet-mature stallion, and are depleting his gonadal reserves dramatically. Stallions are not typically in full sperm production until they are in the age range of 6-8 years of age. The maturity level of 4-year olds varies, and one can have some that are well-developed and produce a lot of sperm, while others may not even be really prepared to breed yet.

You need to be very cautious in collecting this young stallion this much. Over-collecting a young stallion (and let me reinforce this - this stallion is young) can cause permanent psychological damage, and in the worst cases result in a stallion finally refusing to collect at all.

Something relative to your observation that during the training the AV was hotter than 50° C, but that he would "quit"... the range of internal temperature most commonly used is 45-54 ° C - and note that is the internal temperature, not the water temperature at the time of filling (which will need to be hotter) - but a horse that "quits" when he flowers, is very commonly in a situation where the AV is too tight for them to be comfortable with the expansion of the glans. You might therefore want to try the AV a little warmer, but also a little looser if he "quits".
 

Jean-Marc Perron
Nursing Foal
Username: Bar77ranch

Post Number: 11
Registered: 03-2009
Posted on Thursday, May 07, 2009 - 02:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

he doesn't quit anymore,i think pressure wise i am ok with his AV 50 celsius is what it is at inside the AV when i use it.i usually put water at 54 and the inside temp is 50. i will try it a little hotter tonight i will also tease for a few minutes. he is actually 5 yrs old. he has been breeding mares for 2 yrs now approx 15 to 25 mares. we have been collecting him once a day because we are trying to figure him out. but if i can get him at a good concentration then i will collect every 2 days. its been about 5 days since he has been back under lights and back on his program,last time on the 5th day when the vet came of course he gave a great collection.so we will see tonight.
 

Jean-Marc Perron
Nursing Foal
Username: Bar77ranch

Post Number: 12
Registered: 03-2009
Posted on Thursday, May 07, 2009 - 03:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I notice that you have posted some more details in another thread" Thats not me
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2408
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Thursday, May 07, 2009 - 10:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry about that! You're right, it's not you! I get a little frazzled at this time of the year (read breeding season")! :-)
 

Jean-Marc Perron
Nursing Foal
Username: Bar77ranch

Post Number: 13
Registered: 03-2009
Posted on Saturday, May 09, 2009 - 10:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

well a quick update.Friday night collection we prepared him better and teased him a bit more. but he gave use a bit more gel but alot more concentration 228million/ml the saturday same amount of gel but 30million/ml now with that we teased him with a mare at his stall he was really excited.then we took her away brought the mares that were being bred and tied her about 7 ft in front of his stall to keep his intrest. well he had no interest in anyone tonight. we have 2 studs the other always is in the barn when we collect either one.but tonight the other guy was alot more vocal and i could tell it was bothering the other one. now my question is would that affect his semen in that small period of time??
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2413
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Sunday, May 10, 2009 - 11:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You are still dealing with a young stallion at 5, and I am sure that is a factor in the changes in sperm output - especially related to depletion of gonadal reserves. Additionally, if there are other stallions in the vicinity, that could have a significant role in the situation. Is there any way that you could collect him away from other stallions and any other interferences?
 

Jean-Marc Perron
Nursing Foal
Username: Bar77ranch

Post Number: 14
Registered: 03-2009
Posted on Monday, May 11, 2009 - 10:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yep we sure can,and we are doing that now.the other stallion is outside when we do it problem soleved yesterdays collect was good at 154million/ml we can work with that stuff and are just fine tunning him.to where he will be consistent. he was happy yesterday.no gel.lol



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