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Aggression in our stallion

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » General Stallion Questions » Aggression in our stallion « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Zoe Urquhart
Neonate
Username: Landtober_babe

Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Wednesday, October 17, 2007 - 06:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is my first topic on here so really not sure how much to say, I am looking for some opinions on an issue we have encountered for the first time this season with our stallion.
He is 5 years old, we bred him and he has always been a gent to work with, he is kind natured and very willing, he has always run loose with his mares and always been very well mannered and considerate. This season however he begun biting the necks of some mares and although I put some of this down to frustration at certain mares walking away on him, we simply held them for him and although he gripped he did not bite so hard, this seemed to settle down, why would he just start doing this?
The other issue we have had is that we have always been able to add or take away mares from the herd with no issues what so ever but again this year he took a dislike to one particular mare to the point she had to be removed and kept from his sight, he really meant business with her but we are unsure why, we bought her this year with another mare, he accepted the other mare quite quickly but he was almost prepared to go over fences to attack the first mare, we do not think she is in foal but she did run with another stallion for a short time in the weeks before she came to us, would this really have such an affect on our normally placid stallion? he has run with other mares who have been covered by our other stallion and also accepted them with there unrelated foals at foot very readily and he also spends very much time with all the foals grooming and messing about with them.
Do we maybe try this mare with him next yeat in hand or just never let them see each other again?
We do not want to have him serving in hand only as he is too big for me to handle single handed, he does nothing wrong but I feel very over horsed if that makes sense, I then have to rely on my partner to do all the covering but he already works two jobs! he is 18hh so quite a big guy.
 

Tracy Smith
Breeding Stock
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 212
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Wednesday, October 17, 2007 - 07:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Zoe, I don't really have an answer to your problem but I also have a stallion that shares a fence line with the mares (not turned out with them). He has also accepted new mares, talking to them, acting interested. This year I bought a mare already in foal and he hates her! Will rush the fence line if she's near, pinning his ears and baring his teeth. I have never seen him act this way, I have just attributed it to her being pregnant. I'm hoping anyway since breeding her next year may be a problem if he continues to dislike her. He's calmed down somewhat in the 2 months I've owned her. Sometimes I will look out the window and see him standing calmly by the fence with her on the other side. I have noticed if I'm late bringing them in at night he starts charging her at the fence. He is also 5 yrs old like your stallion. I haven't really figured out my situation either so I will be interested if anyone has any ideas. My plan was to wait until she foals and goes into heat and see if he likes her after all!!! I do hand breed my horses and he's only 14.2 hh so a little more manegable if things go awry!
 

Zoe Urquhart
Neonate
Username: Landtober_babe

Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2007 - 04:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well I`m glad I`m not the only one to have experienced this, Duke breeds in hand but he is very big and I feel I can`t hold him back if anything were to go wrong, he just doesn`t feel me on the end of the rope!!
He tolerated this mare over the fence eventually but that is all, I wondered if he will accept her too when she is in foal heat and we know she is ready!
He really is kind and gentle and fantastic to handle so it would be a shame for his reputation to be ruined because he is fussy! ha ha
 

Heather Cooke
Weanling
Username: Hcvideo

Post Number: 49
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2007 - 05:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Have you ever consided training your stallion to collect on a phantom? I think the Jockey Club is the only Registry that does not permit AI/ Transported semen.
I have just started breeding my 2yr.old colt (he is a 14 hand welsh x tb). I choose not to live cover him and only collect him and breed by AI. I believe it is safer for me, my colt,the mare and my helper. I used a mare on the other side of the phantom to encourage him to mount it, now he is starting to go to the phantom not the mare, it took about 10 minutes to collect him the first time. Hopefully with a little more practice he will not need a mare at all. I always keep the stinky bag handy (a ziplock bag with paper towels soaked in urine from a mares in heat). I handle 2 other stallions that will go to a phantom with out a mare in site. These 2 stallions were a real difficult to handle live covering, they were also pasture bred. I believe instinct over rides the training with some horses that are pasture bred, especially when they see a mare is being restrained. Now that we only collect and breed by AI they are perfect gentle men. We trained them to collect at the age of 12 and 19, its never to late.
When we breed outside mares, the owner comes and picks up the semen or we ship it FedX. It is the mare owner's responsibility to deal with their mare and their vet. We just provide good quality semen in a timely manner.
I have read time and time again on this board mare owners second guessing stallion owners that are live covering their mares. As a stallion owner I ask why take on the liability? If the mare doesnot get in foal its your fault, if the mare gets injuried its your fault, if every thing doesnot go perfect its your fault, if you hand them a big vet bill from your vet, it's your fault. With Transported Semen it is the resposibility of the mare owner to get their horse in foal you just provide good quality semen.
To save money I built my own phantom and made my own colorado style AV, just needed a microscope and a water bath or incubator. It cost me about $10 in supplies (lube, All in One AV liner and a glove) to collect my stallion. The information and training is avalible, it's not brain surgery.
 

Zoe Urquhart
Neonate
Username: Landtober_babe

Post Number: 4
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2007 - 06:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heather we have thought about using this option so we can ship semen but know very little about the AI process, the biggest issue we have is so many people who would or do use our stallion are not interested in AI, with the clydesdale breed therer is a long way to come before things are modern tech!! there are still too many older breeders who think only the old way is right, if we only did AI then we know we would have no outside mares to our stallion, does that make sense at all?? we were also tld by our vet that because our stallion is at the bigger end of the scale things get quite expensive, would this be right? we have only one vet covering a huge area who does AI here anyway.
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 366
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2007 - 07:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am with you Heather. When I bought my stallion as a yearling, I decided way back then not to hand breed or pasture breed. I wanted to take the mares out of my equation all together.

He has never hand or pasture bred and was trained to a phantom at a professional facility. He got my mare in foal last spring and we are expecting an early april foal.

Part of my decision not to allow hand or pasture breeding is the possibility of disease transfer or the bigger possibility of injury to my stallion. He is a huge investment and I don't want any accidents or kicks, bites from a mare to destroy his value, or detract his presence in the show ring.

Any mare owner who doesnt want to be bothered with AI can have their pick of lots of other stallions out there whose owners are willing to take that risk.

My stallion trained to the phantom in a matter of an hour with the aid of a mare in heat. Two days later, he was collected again with the mare in the room, and a few days after that, he was collected without the aid of a mare. He learned very quickly what the breeding shed was all about and what was expected.

My stallion station does all the collecting and shipping so I don't have to worry about that. They use FedEx as well, and sometimes air depending on where the semen is going to. Sometimes its faster to go by bus than by FedEx, but for the most part they rely on FedEx.

I just find this so much easier. Heather is right, it puts all the responsibility on the mare owner to get the cycle right, and know their mare well enough that they arent wasting time and money on repeated shipments.

A few booboos and ultrasounds and AI procedures by the mares vet will smarten up a mare owner quick through the pocket book.

I also dont have the expense of having mares on the property and taking any responsibility for those mares and foals that might be on the side. Just easier all around for me.
 

Heather Cooke
Weanling
Username: Hcvideo

Post Number: 50
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2007 - 10:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Zoe
I get a kick out of those who think only the old way is right, I guess they are driving around in cars with out air conditioners and watch black and white TV's. And if they break their arm they will use 2 sticks and a couple of strips of cloth to splint it and hope for the best. It is usually frowned upon by those who lack the knowledge of the benifits of Transported semen/AI and don't want to admit it or don't want to do the work to get their mare in foal. It is so easy to drop the mare off at the stud farm and pick her up a few weeks later. It is far to dangerous for you, your helper and your stallion to let a few old fart control how you manage your breeding operation, because they live in the stone age. Do you require the mares be cultured, a "written" report from the vet before breeding?
Their is a lady in Micanopy, Fl who has been collecting her Clydes for years.

Jos and Cathy offer equine reproduction short courses that are great. Their manual they give out at the courses is worth it weight in gold.

http://www.equine-reproduction.com/courses/courses.shtml
 

Tracy Smith
Breeding Stock
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 217
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Thursday, October 18, 2007 - 11:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Debbie and Heather, I have only hand bred my stallion at this point but I've only bred him twice to my own mare. When I do start promoting him and standing him to outside mares I will definitely start using a phantom and collecting. In Arabians both are still used but it is moving more towards AI. I agree that I don't want the hassle of dealing with mares here and trying to get them in foal on my time. Not to mention the potential danger of my stallion or even their mare getting hurt.
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 367
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, October 19, 2007 - 08:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tracy: I never let my stallion hand breed, though I know of others that do both and it works out fine. Some horses that are allowed to hand breed are slow to take to the phantom, which can create frustration and expense of time and possibility of injury to the stallion on the phantom as well.

Iknow a woman who used to do more hand breeding but was promoting her stallion and getting more interest from farther away and decided to ship semen, but the horse wasnt all that interested in the phantom and it took literally hours to get him collected. She has since sold the stallion and he no longer collects for AI.

In the paint world, most stallions are now collected. If you have an excellent stud, you want to get his foals out there far and wide. This is not possible with a hand breeding set up.

If its possible, get some opinons from other stallion owners on how they are promoting their boys. I find it easier to get help outside of your own breed as you are not going to be competition to anyone who offers some help.

Look over other stallion contracts out there. You can find lots of them on the net by just googling stallion breeding contract and see what comes up.

LOook into what you wish to charge for your stud fee, and then what it will cost for collection and shipping, and if you are going to use a disposible container or whether you want your container back etc.

See what others in your area are charging for their studs. etc.

Look at different stallion promotional material and ask around as to who does the fliers etc. Get your boy in the stallion edition for your discipline and take pictures of him or have a pro do it for you as well as pictures of his foals on the ground so you can show people what he is producingl

A good website will help promote him as well
There are also free stallion sites on the web.... the stallion station is one... that you can put a picture of your stud and his pedigree and contact info.

Do some research and see what you can turn up.

Deb
 

Tracy Smith
Breeding Stock
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 220
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Friday, October 19, 2007 - 04:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for your help Debbie! He's leaving for 60-90 days of training December 1st and depending how things go we'll decide on his showing and training schedule. After that, the promoting begins! Thanks again.
 

Saleste Clark
Nursing Foal
Username: Saleste

Post Number: 20
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Monday, November 05, 2007 - 08:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a problem along the same lines with my stallion!! He is 7 (I think, right off the top of my head) and he has always been sooo sweet. He was good with the mares, he was good around people. All of a sudden, this year, he has taken to charging the fence -- not at mares, but at ME !!! he was only bred to one mare this year, so I don't know if this is pent up frustration, or what, but I made sure to not let him get away with it. He usually only did it when I was feeding him. He hasnt done it since this spring, though. I dont know what got into the silly guy!! We even trail ride him with mares and he didnt act that bad!! ugh!!!!
 

Cjskip
Weanling
Username: Cjskip

Post Number: 47
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 01:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Did Joe's question get answered, or did I just miss it? I was very interested in the stallion hating a particular mare that she and Tracy posted. I'm still wondering why that might be so?
 

Laurie A Beltran
Yearling
Username: Prophecy_ranch

Post Number: 97
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 09:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have to agree AI is alot safer that live cover! I hand bred only my own mares, I did notice a total change in his sweet deameanor after breeding now that's the only thing he wants! Not to say that's the only thing they think of oh yeah eating! I am promoting him this year so AI from now on, Prophecy (Arabian Stallion) has been taught on a phantom so the transition should be easy!

DEB, Thanks for your info!
 

Tracy Smith, Tali due 6/08
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 1086
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2008 - 02:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cjskip, my stallion that "hated" my mare Tali has been out for training since January 1st but coming home June 1st to breed the mare that he "hates" so we'll see how it goes! I will say that he had settled down before leaving for training and was not attacking the fenceline anymore. I agree with Laurie that AI is the way to go and I will eventually teach him how to collect.
 

Catherine Owen
Breeding Stock
Username: Cateowen

Post Number: 142
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 01:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think AI is just plain safer all the way around. And....
I have a mare that absolutely, positively hates other horses, ANY other horses...
Without AI we would SOL regarding ever getting HER bred. Doesn't matter whether the stallion likes her or not, she HATES everybody (horse-wise). Other mares, geldings, stallions, it doesn't matter, she is an "equal opportunity hater". Although she has had one foal and didn't reject it or anything, in fact they never weaned the darned thing, but that is a different thread.

She is a sweetheart with people and rides really nice, just don't crowd her :-)
 

Tracy Smith, Tali due 6/08
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 1136
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Thursday, April 10, 2008 - 03:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"equal opportunity hater" That really cracked me up for some reason!
 

Cyndy Wiser
Yearling
Username: Cyndy

Post Number: 53
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 11:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heather thanks so much for posting the link about the on-site training courses. In checking it, I saw where Jos/Kathy will be in my area this fall at Proud Meadows!! Jos, I won't miss it.
 

Catherine Owen
Breeding Stock
Username: Cateowen

Post Number: 145
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 02:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tracy ---
My husband says I should have pursued a stand-up comedian career.
But it is true, this little mare can NOT stand other horses. Any other horses and it doesn't matter if they are mares, geldings, stallions, mules, burros, whether she is in heat, not in heat, morning, noon, evening. It just doesn't matter.

She truly thinks she is a people and I just let her think that. We love her dearly and continue to cater to her every whim, --- NOW THAT WE HAVE HER FIGURED OUT.

I guess that is why God made science smart enough to come up with AI. Or we would never have a prayer of getting her bred.

The poor ole stallion would just be a-thinkin, "Ah, a good looking mare, nicker, nicker, nicker......"
Then Missy (my mare) would turn around and give him that evil serpent (no ears) "smile" (teeth barred) and probably scare him half to death. When she goes after another horse, she looks like a striking cobra!

I don't think either the mare or stallion would come out the "winner" in a live cover with this gal!

But we are Quarter Horse people and good AI facilities abound. --- I am sure the stallions are all grateful!
 

Tracy Smith, Tali due 6/08
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 1143
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 02:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a mare very similar to her EXCEPT when she's in heat then she is fine with the stallion but I agree, AI is a life saver!



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