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Naughty colt

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » General Stallion Questions » Naughty colt « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Sara S
Neonate
Username: Sara1971

Post Number: 4
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Monday, May 21, 2007 - 05:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, I own a two year old Welsh colt. The problem is that he is trying to bite me more and more-in fact all the time I am handling him he is trying to bite. I have had so many ideas given to me about how to stop him but just wondered if anyone here has had this experience and managed to stop it? i dont want him to become a nasty adult just because I am out of my depth with him. I have tried loads and he just doesnt stop.
 

Coco Tingler
Neonate
Username: Ladyting

Post Number: 5
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 11:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, Don't no if u still need help with this or not but my colt when he was a yearling became suddenly very nippy, always trying to bite and started to act like I was told was the terrible two's for stud colts.

I always flicked him in the nose when he tried to nip and I'd bite him on the nose if he'd bit me. It stopped him biting after a week but he'd still nip when he thought I wasn't paying attention.

Then when he hit 2 he suddenly stopped his behavior like it started. I havnt had him nip or bite since then and he's now 2 and a half.

Although I have been told that if they are mouthy to not let them grab the lead ropes and try to curb them from putting things in their mouth when they are susposed to be either leading or around you.

Hope this helps-
 

cathy Cook
Breeding Stock
Username: Razmacat

Post Number: 381
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Friday, August 24, 2007 - 08:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What sort of equiptment are you handling with? I personally handle all colts with a chain shank over their nose then when they get colty I snatch the shank and correct them.
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 348
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 11:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I also use the shank over the nose on my two year old. Hes not nippy, but he was when I brought him up from the US as a yearling. He had been on pasture with his mom and about 50 other horses, so he was a wild child!. He has the shank over the nose when we are grooming or bathing. One good yank and he behaves.
 

cathy Cook
Breeding Stock
Username: Razmacat

Post Number: 386
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 12:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is amazing how a quick tug of the chian reminds them how to behave!
 

Tracy Smith
Weanling
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 49
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 01:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I also never handle my stallion without a chain over his nose, he is extremely well behaved but things can always change in an instant. 90% of the time I don't have to use it but it's nice to know it's there!
 

cathy Cook
Breeding Stock
Username: Razmacat

Post Number: 387
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 03:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I put the chain in my teaser's mouth.
 

Heather Cooke
Weanling
Username: Hcvideo

Post Number: 44
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Saturday, August 25, 2007 - 03:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Sara
Young pony stallions can be quite difficult to deal with even thought they are not big like 2 year old horse. One good yank with a chain shank does not always work on pony colts, they don't get their feeling hurt very easily. My big warmblood, one jerk is all it takes. But my 2 yr old pony colt, Buzzy enjoyed the sparring, I had to give him hell, jerk the heck out him and make him backup until he was breathing hard, then he would be good until he caught his breath. I hated having to treat him that way but every time I went near him he would try and grab me and he did not mind being punish, it seemed like he enjoyed it, I had to figure out another method. So after breakfast I would take him to the round pen and work him at a trot for about 15 minutes sometimes more. Usually he would charge around like a wild child for a good 5 minutes or longer then finally settled to a nice quiet jog, I'd make him stop change direction several time. Then I would practice leading him and jogging him in straight lines, stopping, setting up and standing in his own space while he was a bit tired. I believe he needed to expend some of that bottled up energy. I had planned on showing him in hand with a snaffle brible and did not want to have to beat the crap out of him in public. It took a good month for him to mellow and he was very business like at the show. Even though I have not kept up the work, he is easy to handle without a chain shank on. He is now in a stall that he is allowed to hang his head out in the isle way of the barn and he doesn't nip or act aggressive towards anyone. Ponies are different than horses. Good luck
 

Phyllis Schroder
Neonate
Username: Shadowbend

Post Number: 6
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Saturday, September 22, 2007 - 02:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Some here may not like what I'm going to say but I'll stick by it. Since you already know when he's going to try to bite you, be prepared and ready for it and when he goes to nip have your fist ready and punch him in the side of the mouth with all you've got (rattle his teeth).
Be prepared, he will probably be shocked and jump back a bit, that's fine just let him settle for a second and go on about you're business like nothing happened. The timing is very important, you have to get him in the act and if your hand doesn't hurt you didn't hit him hard enough. He needs to feel it and know you're not kidding around and won't tolerate it.
I assure you it will not hurt him in any way other than his feelings. I rarely have a horse come back for another try at it but if he does, do it again.
I would also work on teaching him his space and yours and that he is not to be in your space without an invitation.
Biting can quickly become a terrible habit or game for the horse and can be quite painful to the victims so the sooner you get it under control the better. And you'll enjoy the benefit of not having to be on guard all the time when working with him.
 

Beth
Nursing Foal
Username: Beth13

Post Number: 12
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 08:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know this is an old thread, but i want to say that I think you all are going about this the wrong way. I agree that when they bite, they get a smack on the nose as soon as they do it. As Phyllis said, timing is very important. Thats where the aggreeing with you guys ends and from what I"ve read none of you are going to like what I'm about to say, but I'm going to say it anyway. I used to have a stallion, but he was gelded when he was about three, after he'd been running with the mares. He was a good natured stallion and is a good natured gelding, but he still displays the learned behaviour of a stallion. I NEVER used a chain on him or any other horse, and NEVER will, I DON'T own a chain and I NEVER will even consider getting or using one. Chains are weapons of pain and fear. The so called "problem" stallions and colts that you hear about are generally acting out of self defense. I have rasied and worked with colts and I understand that they can get boisterious and I know that raising your stallion from birth as I intend to do is not an option for everyone. But forcing them to submit to you out of fear of the chain is NO way to treat them. Neither is locking them up in a barn or stable. These treatments lead to HUGE behavioural problems and can very easily lead to the stallion being labelled as a 'renegade'. Sometimes these stallions have to be put down which is a shame because it the people who handle them that turn them into these 'monsters'. Stallions are just like every other horse, and the need the same things that every other horse does- Love, companionship and owners that care and understand
 

Jenni Luttrell
Breeding Stock
Username: Bugrace2000

Post Number: 540
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Friday, January 04, 2008 - 10:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Beth - Way to go I'm glad someone besides me doesnt think stallions are uncontrolable monsters. Just a month or so a guy told me if I took my stallion on a trail ride he sponsors and he so much as sniffed another horse he'd shoot him cause " you just never can tell what a stallion will do" & "women just arent strong enough to handle a stallion" in my expierence all horses have a mind of their own at some time or another it shows through. I own a 12yr old stallion and a 2yr old stallion my 5 & 3 yr old girls are my 2yr olds stallions best friends he loves them dearly and both girls can ride either one on lead line of course.
 

Tracy Smith, Tali due 6/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 489
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Saturday, January 05, 2008 - 01:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Beth, I agree and disagree with you. I raised my stallion from birth and he has always been handled like any old horse. He shares fence lines with the mares and has trailered with a mare right next to him. I have never abused him or made him "submit" to me out of fear. He is one of the best mannered stallions I have ever dealt with. I get a lot of "wow, he is so well behaved, I can't believe he's a stallion". I'm not fearful of him or treat him any differently than my mares BUT I always lead him with a chain. I have never used it against him or yanked on him with it but it's there "just in case". A stallion no matter how awesome they are are always unpredictable (as are all horses) and I would rather have that little "extra" if ever needed. So far in 5 yrs, I've never needed it :-) I really think that if used properly, just like whips, chains can be a good and useful aid. People can abuse almost anything, ie spurs, draw reins, whips....It's all about the handler.

With that said, I completely agree with you and Jenni that too many stallions are treated like monsters and are feared so that just makes more situations worse but I also respect my stallion and am aware of what he could do at any time.
 

corina gabel
Neonate
Username: Newyearsbaby05

Post Number: 8
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Saturday, January 05, 2008 - 01:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does every one use chains? my baby hes 3, bred a few mares and only get the chain 2 mins like only release the chain before he mounts I then hook the lead back to the halter. He is to gentle to use the chain. He even shys befor breeding if i tug at all.

i only use it for the one in a million chance.
 

corina gabel
Neonate
Username: Newyearsbaby05

Post Number: 9
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Saturday, January 05, 2008 - 01:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rusty is my first and hopfully not my last stallion, I think my guilding behaves worse then he does. I spend so much time teaching him NO and back that I let my 2 year old son in to play with him all the time, he thinks it his horsy. James, my son, hauls apples out to him in a tiny shoping cart. Rusty (the horse) will look to me before he will even moves and walks to my son.

This is the 3 year old stud by the way.

Training and work. NO and BACK can work wonders ! ! !
 

Jenni Luttrell
Breeding Stock
Username: Bugrace2000

Post Number: 544
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Saturday, January 05, 2008 - 11:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I did not raise my 12yr old stallion from birth and when I got him he had some undesirable behaviors but after a little consistant work and he found out I wasnt afraid of him he is consistantly a gentleman. I think what happens is that ppl allow behaviors in stallions as young colts bc after all boys will be boys that they wouldnt accept out of a filly then when the stallion is 1200 lbs and doing just what hes been taught is ok. He goes to a stallion handler where he is basically abused, in my opinion, (not all stallion trainers abuse stallions but a lot do) and this is all ok because after all he's a stallion. I've seen so many non horse ppl love my horses and think they are just so sweet but as soon as they hear the term stallion become deathly afraid of the same horse they were just loving on.
Corina - I do not use a chain however I do use knotted rope halters. I use them on everything but my shetland. They dont hurt the horse but they do give you a lot more control than a regular nylon or leather halter.
Tracy I totataly agree its all about the handler I dont have a problem with training aids if used properly but to be honest i've met very few ppl that know HOW to use them.
 

Tracy Smith, Tali due 6/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 492
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Saturday, January 05, 2008 - 04:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jenni, I agree 100% that most people do not use training aids properly. It's kind of funny but my stallion when lead with a basic halter and lead rope prances around and is a basically a pain in the behind but as soon as I put the chain on, he's an angel! I don't even have to use it, if it sits there and he knows its there, perfect gentleman.

It is funny how people freak out when they hear "stallion". Also the other thing I find amusing is when someone owns a stallion and talks about it like it's some type of status symbol "I own a STALLION" Like we should be impressed!
 

Jenni Luttrell
Breeding Stock
Username: Bugrace2000

Post Number: 553
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Saturday, January 05, 2008 - 04:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tracy - I had a mare one time that unless you rode bareback you had to have spurs or she would even go so far as to buck. You never had to touch her with them she just had to hear them. I tied a piece of wire with pop tabs strung on it to my saddle when I rode her. She thought the jingle was spurs and behaved like a champ.
What I really get a kick out of is the ppl that own a 2yr old colt and go around like they are all that cause they have a "stallion". I dont consider a 2yr old who hasnt even dropped yet a stallion. I also dont hold owning a stallion as a status symbol. Anyone can own something its how you handle what you own that gets my respect.
I know a lot of ppl that own a stallion but they never go near him cause they are terrified in all honesty.
 

Beth
Nursing Foal
Username: Beth13

Post Number: 15
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Sunday, January 06, 2008 - 10:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jenni, I also use rope halters on all of my horses and I only use leather or nylon ones when they have to be in the yards for long periods of time or when I turn them out in the paddocks for short periods of time. Although they only stay in the yards or are turned out for short periods of time when they are sick or injured. Thats what I believe was a major factor to my boy's good behaviour (when he was still a stallion). The main reason he was gelded was because our neighbours moved in and brought with them a 18yr unhandled stallion! Our boy kept jumping fences and very nearly killed himself. Our neighbours stallion has a fabulous temperment, he runs with his mare 24/7 no exceptions. We run our mares next to him and he's never once tried anything silly like jumping or mounting over the fence... and the fence isn't in the best condition. Although this stallion is not even halter broken and is only half a step above a brumby [or mustang for people in America] and unlike his owner I believe under no circumstances should a domesticated stallion ever be allowed to run unhandled and untrained. I start halter breaking my foals at day 1.
As for that stallion status thing, isn't it so infuriating? Being afraid of a stallion is unneccassary, and if your his owner, dangerous. If he senses you're afraid of him, he'll start to push the boundaries and then you've got trouble.
 

corina gabel
Neonate
Username: Newyearsbaby05

Post Number: 10
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Friday, January 11, 2008 - 06:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I didnt think that i was calling him a status symbol. Its not like any of us here are posting pedigree every time we can.

We have 7 horses, 5 mares, a mean old guilding and a 8 month old colt, and rusty. They all mean alot to me, hes just extra special.

Im only 23 and he is a new experience, People have told me my hole life that a women cant handle a stallion, and all these horibble stories. I just want to make sure none of them happen to him. Rusty is the first horse i have been allowed to own, train, and do what ever i wanted with and no one can tell me different. Versis sharing with sibling and other family. To me, the only status he gives to me is that HE IS MINE. Im sorry if im JUST AS PROUD to say STALLION as I am to say my MARE.

I came here looking help because babies are new to me, all of ours have came all ready made. Some of you make me feel like i shouldnt even be trying. Its typical horse industry, 1/2 are down to earth and friendly the other act like there barns dont stink.

Its comments like that that make alot of people afraid to ask questions and animals turn up on the unwanted side of the fence!
 

Jenni Luttrell
Breeding Stock
Username: Bugrace2000

Post Number: 668
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Friday, January 11, 2008 - 07:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Corina - I cant speak for others but I didnt think you were using him as a status symbol. I sure didnt mean to offend you. I'm very proud of all my horses. My stallion just happens to be my baby and hopefully my future in the ring. I'm not rich or anywhere near it and I handle all my horses myself. I've been told many times that women cant handle stallions yes we can handle them yes there are times that we may have a harder time of it but thats nothing good training cant fix.
 

Tracy Smith, Tali due 6/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 533
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Friday, January 11, 2008 - 09:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Corina, I was the first person that said it drove me crazy when people said they owned a stallion as a status symbol. I wasn't talking about you, I don't even know you, it was a very generalized statement. Just as Jenni stated a lot of people are scared of their stallions which make issues worse, this was just something we have all noticed in our years with horses, nothing was directed at you. I'm sorry if you have had bad experiences at other boards but I think you will find the majority of people here are friendly and knowledgeable. Sometimes we debate or state our opinions but always in a nice way. Just read the statements above, some are against chains on their studs, I use a chain. It's just different ways. I also own a stallion and talk about him a lot because I LOVE him and I would love him the same if he was a gelding. :-)
 

Beth
Weanling
Username: Beth13

Post Number: 23
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 10:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wouldn't swap my herd for any another in the whole world. [Adding to it however... is another thing!!] They are all strong and weak in different areas so between them, there's practically nothing I can't do on a horse or with a horse. We as owners should be proud of them for what they are, not what they're supposed to be or what other people think they should be.
Corina, I also added to the status symbol conversation- I wasn't meaning you or anyone else on this board in particular. But when people do start talking about their stallions like that, well that one of the times when you can tell the horse [people] from the [horsepeople].
 

Michele
Yearling
Username: Mich

Post Number: 75
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Sunday, January 13, 2008 - 11:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm afraid I couldn't disagree more [in the nicest possible way] with the following statement: "We as owners should be proud of them for what they are, not what they're supposed to be or what other people think they should be."

It is my personal opinion that we should be ultra concerned about what 'they're supposed to be' and 'what others think they should be'.

There are WAY too many fuglies [http://fuglyhorseoftheday.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default] in this world who end up leading a life of abuse and neglect and have no purpose in this world just because someone felt like breeding their mare.

Only the best of the best should be bred with, and sadly that is a miniscule percentage of what is actually being bred..

Ok, I'll duck to avoid the rotten tomatoes now:-)
 

Tracy Smith, Tali due 6/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 552
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 12:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Michele, I agree with you 100%! By the way, I love fuglyhorseoftheday, I check in regularly :-)

My stallion is 5 yrs old, amazing bloodlines, good conformation, awesome temperment but he's never been bred. He is currently in training with a National level trainer to see what he can do. If he succeeds (as I hope and think he will) then he will be bred. This may put some owners off but I will be picky on who he is bred to. The foals he produces will reflect on him as a stallion and me as a breeder so I really don't want to be part of any weird crosses.

I won't throw any tomatoes at you but I might have some thrown at me now!
 

Jenni Luttrell
Breeding Stock
Username: Bugrace2000

Post Number: 711
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 12:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wont throw any tomatoes your way Tracy lol My appy will not breed anything until his 5th year either. I am hoping to make him a cutting horse but we'll see wich way he leans to when we get there. I refuse to breed to any unregistered mares even with my APHA stallion well except Ginger but that was an accident and I believe I have her sold.
Michele even tho I agree with your statement on here I think parts of your blog are a little to over the top.
 

Michele
Yearling
Username: Mich

Post Number: 76
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 02:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Way to go Tracy. You have the right idea! Jenni, I'd love to take the credit for FHOTD, but I can't - it's not my blog. Personally, I don't find any of it over the top. What I do find over the top is what is featured on it..

With regard to breeding [anything] it's black and white - right or wrong and no inbetween.
 

Jenni Luttrell
Breeding Stock
Username: Bugrace2000

Post Number: 712
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Monday, January 14, 2008 - 08:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

its not the concept that is over the top just a lot of the language and constant insinuations against poor ppl. I know a lot of rich ppl who breed iresponsibly as well.
you are right there is no inbetween I've seen a lot of good stallions lines go to pot over breeding to ANY mare.
 

Michele
Yearling
Username: Mich

Post Number: 77
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 - 02:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, 'fugly' breeding knows no economic class boundaries it seems.

I don't, however, get the impression that poor people are being personally attacked. The main criticism seems to be that if one cannot afford to keep a horse one should not own a horse - let alone breed one and a bad one at that.

However, some people seem to presume it is their 'right' to own / breed an animal regardless of financial constraints and quality or lack thereof.
That's the main objection I've picked up from reading the posts and comments.
 

corina gabel
Nursing Foal
Username: Newyearsbaby05

Post Number: 20
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 - 08:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know alot of people who only breed the best but what aobut thoses of us who have a mare that is the world to them. THey might be nothing of greatness to you but you dont know what they are to that person.
I dont believe in breeding for the hell of it but dont ignore a person just cuz there are no registered. There are alot of us there who dont have horses who came from a world champ and are still dong alot with them....

I jsut think that here is more to look into when selling and breeding a horse then a name.

but you said it. IF YOU CANT AFORD TO FEED IT YOU DONT NEED IT !!!
 

Tracy Smith, Tali due 6/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 569
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 - 09:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Corina, I think the issue is that you have to think of what may happen to the horse if you no longer own it. It's a fact that unregistered horses end up at slaughter faster than registered ones. If you breed one horse for yourself and keep it through it's lifetime then I don't think anyone would argue with you but life happens and if for some reason you couldn't keep all your horses and needed to find homes, a nonregistered horse doesn't have much of a future. The reality is the horse market really sucks right now and even top bred registered professionally trained horses are not selling for that much. They are literally giving away grade horses right now, so why breed for one when you could save a horse's life? I'm sorry but if your stallion isn't registered and have something to offer to other people, it shouldn't be a stallion. If your mare is not registered and have something to offer, it shouldn't be bred. There are just too many horses out there without good homes. Again, if you plan on breeding your mare one time to your stallion and keep that foal forever, that's great but anything else would be irresponsible.
 

Jenni Luttrell
Breeding Stock
Username: Bugrace2000

Post Number: 743
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 15, 2008 - 09:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I HAVE TO AGREE WITH TRACY HERE SRRY. MY BEST MARE WAS GRADE DUE TO MOMMAS PAPERS BEING LOST AND I HAVE SEEN SOME AWSOME GRADE HORSES. ALTHOUGH THE PAPERS DONT "MAKE" THE HORSE THEY DO MAKE THE SELLING POINT. I AM NOT AGAINST SLAUGHTER - NO ROTTEN TOMATOES PLZ- AND SINCE THE CLOSING OF SLAUGHTER HOUSES HORSES HAVE FALLEN OUT COMPLETELY. ITS NOT ONLY GRADE HORSES THAT ARE BEING GIVEN AWAY. HERE I CAN BUY REGISTERED AQHA FOALS FOR 70-120$ ALL DAY LONG. HORSES ARE EVEN BEING TURNED OUT ONTO FOREST SERVICE. ONE GUY EVEN PARKED ALONG SIDE THE HIGHWAY WITH A TRAILER LOAD OF NICE BROKE REGISTERED GELDINGS WITH A SIGN READING FREE!
FOR ANYONE WHO DOESNT AGREE PLZ THINK OF THIS WOULD YOU RATHER BE DEAD AND PUT TO USE OR STARVED ABUSED AND IN PAIN. EVEN EUTHINASIA ISNT AS HUMANE AS CLAIMED AND THE ANIMAL GETS TO ROT IN A CITY DUMP. NOT A VERY NOBLE ENDING FOR OUR FRIEND THE HORSE. IF YOU WANT TO SAVE A HORSE FROM SLAUGHTER BREED RESPONSIBLY, AND BUY A HORSE ON ITS WAY TO SLAUGHTER THAT HAS A CHANCE AT FINDING A GREAT HOME WITH A LITTLE TLC. DONT PETITION AGAINST SLAUGHTER HOUSES OR ADD TO THE ALREADY FLOODED MARKET.
 

Michele
Yearling
Username: Mich

Post Number: 78
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 16, 2008 - 02:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tracy and Jenni, couldn't have said it better. Corina, with regard to registered vs. unregistered: it's not a snob thing, it's purely to try and cut out any of the guesswork when breeding a stallion to a mare. A grade horse has [generally] unknown parentage. One cannot look back in the pedigree and see what the sires and dams looked like and how they performed or whether they passed on any undesirable genetic traits. One is breeding blind so to speak.

One might have a really good looking grade horse [and there are some of them about]. HOWEVER, there is no guarantee whatsoever that that horse will be able to replicate itself in its offspring. [One is not creating a desirable phenotype and genotype which will be carried through future generations, eliminating all undesirable characteristics from conformation to temperament.]

In other words, it might well have really bad or average foals even when put to a good stallion. Genes are so complex that even when all the variables are known it is not always a given that two good horses will produce good offspring. Why would one lessen one's chances even further by breeding with unproven lines? It costs as much to feed a bad horse as a good horse and therefore it makes more sense to only breed with the best. Hopefully that way the foal will have a useful life and will not end up like the majority of [grade] horses do - abused, neglected, starving.
This is also a sure-fire way of not having to have slaughter-houses.

It's all very well saying it is inhumane to euthanase horses in slaughter houses, but as long as people breed bad horses and too many horses for the market, there will be a place for slaughter houses.

As for breeding because of emotional attachment to one's animal, I really can understand that, but at the end of the day what is more important - our feelings or another being's life?
 

Diana Gilger
Nursing Foal
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 14
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Saturday, January 19, 2008 - 12:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, you guys have really strayed a long way from the original post! I am impressed, and ashamed all at the same time! Sara S's pony is biting her, for gosh sakes, and no one will help her! I have miniature horses....and even miniature stallions can be unruly at 24" tall. You guys got kinda hung up on the stallion thing for some reason....but I'll tell ya, stallion or not...if one of my horses bites me, I smack em on the side of the mouth (with a cupped hand) If you're quick enough to shock them immediately when they bite, and you catch them at just the right angle, the cupped hand makes an awesome noise on the side of the muzzle that they don't soon forget. I very rarely have ever had to repeat it more than once. I don't really see it as forcing the horses to be fearful of you....the easiest way to train any animal is to treat them how others in the wild would treat them! If your horse walked up and bit another horse on the butt, he'd get kicked...and he'd learn who he could bully and bite and who he cannot. As his handler, teach him that you are top broodmare, and not to be bullied! He is to respect your space, and live within his own until invited....just like stallions and mares in the wild. The mares will let him know when it's ok ....until then , he is to be a proper gentleman. I have trained many, many animals in my time....people say I have "a way" with animals, and it is the same with any of them...horses, dogs, cats....doesn't matter, establish your hierarchy...and let them know you're alpha dog, head broodmare, whatever.
 

Tracy Smith, Tali due 6/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 597
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Saturday, January 19, 2008 - 01:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Diana, Sara's post was from 5/07 and was addressed. The post was reopened recently with Beth's post about her opinion of biting and the use of chains. Did you read all the posts? We did discuss ways to discourage biting and then Corina brought up having a grade unregistered stallion, maybe you should reread the posts. By the way, I disagree with you on how to deal with biting. The horse quickly learns that he is much quicker than you are (there is no way you can be faster) and it becomes a game. My stallion can bite and take off across the pasture faster than you can blink, he's not even there for me to hit! I also don't believe you should ever hit any horse in the face, period. Hit him in the shoulder, across his side, his butt, wherever but not his face. You will get many opinions about this because people have different beliefs and the various posts stated all the ways to deal with it. Guess what, people have said I "have a way" with animals too.
 

Tracy Smith, Tali due 6/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 598
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Saturday, January 19, 2008 - 01:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Diana, I'm really sorry if I came off rude, I'm not a rude person so for that I apologize. I do stand by what I said, I didn't mean to have it come off so harshly.
 

Diana Gilger
Nursing Foal
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 16
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Saturday, January 19, 2008 - 04:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yep, that was pretty rude alright....and yes, I read the posts....and if your stallion has learned that he can bite you and be gone before you can respond....your "way" with animals is a little different than mine.
 

Gina McMahon
Weanling
Username: Moonlitpaints

Post Number: 25
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Saturday, January 19, 2008 - 05:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh wow, I went back and read the Fugly horse of the day blog! Too funny! I totally agree, there are waaaaay too many stallions out there that should not be stallions. A good stallion makes a great gelding! Some day I hope to have my own stallion to stand, but I have been working on breeding the perfect one for 5 years now and it hasn't happened yet. I want only the best and to stand a horse I can say will truely better the APHA breed. Be picky when selecting a stud, very, very picky.
 

Marilyn Lemke - Dora due 7/31/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 815
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Saturday, January 19, 2008 - 07:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I heard if you hit a horse in the face, it will become head shy. I heard to be effective, you need to smack him under his chin, the horse wouldn't see it coming. If you smack him in the face, the horse would see it coming and then take off and/or become head shy.
 

Tracy Smith, Tali due 6/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 601
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Saturday, January 19, 2008 - 08:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Diana, I tried to come back and be nice and apologize for being a little too harsh but you can't even take an apology gracefully. Honestly, a mini stallion is million times different than a large horse (I know they can get unruly) but they can't do the same kind of damage. My point about a stallion being able to bite and run away is that they are FAST. I still say you should NEVER hit a horse in their face. I was trying to make a point, not to defend the way I train my horses. By the way, my stallion is currently in training and I have been told more than once that he is one of the most well behaved stallions they have dealt with so obviously "my way" works for me.

Now back to the original reason why I got so fired up in the first place is that you come out of the blue and start rudely making comments on how we have strayed from Sarah's post and how you're ashamed and we haven't helped her etc. Again, Sarah's post was from 8 months ago and she was given advice!!!! This will be the last time I post anything when it comes to you because you obviously are argumentative and would like to get in a pissing match. Everyone else on this board has been posting back and forth with me for months and this is the first time I have ever had anyone be so negative, usually we give our own opinions and it's nice to see how people do things differently. So, with that said, you can post whatever you want (which I'm sure you will) and I will go on talking to the friends I have made on this board.
 

Michele
Yearling
Username: Mich

Post Number: 79
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 09:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Diana Gilger wrote: "Wow, you guys have really strayed a long way from the original post! I am impressed, and ashamed all at the same time! ..... You guys got kinda hung up on the stallion thing for some reason...."

Diana, if you read carefully you'll see that no-one is 'hung up on the stallion thing' - but we are possibly 'hung up on' people breeding with HORSES [any sex] that shouldn't be bred. If one doesn't have a great horse and doesn't have a good market: DON'T BREED! To do otherwise is WRONG for a whole variety of reasons.

However, stallions can theoretically produce many more foals than a mare can, and that's possibly why keeping an animal as a stud stallion was mentioned a couple of times.
 

Diana Gilger
Nursing Foal
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 17
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 05:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

you're right , Tracy, and I should be publicly shamed for having an opinion of my own....you go on now and talk to your friends....the others who respond to my posts are truly helpful, and can constructively criticize without being rude. I appreciate your candor....
Hey Michele, you're right, It seemed as if (as I read the posts, casually skipping from one to the next) that it strayed a long way from the original...I didn't really realize that the original was so long ago, but was brutally jumped by others on the board for not noticing that sooner, I just noticed the topic change, my bad.
 

Terry Waechter 5 march foals
Breeding Stock
Username: Watchman

Post Number: 125
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 03:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'd like to add my two cents....I breed rare, expensive registered horses but it is heart breaking to see how poorly some of these treasures are treated by ignorant or prideful people so there is no guarantee. I worry a lot each time I sell a foal or mare, wondering if I have sent her to a bad fate. It is a serious consideration but the only alternative would be to not breed at all. I am as careful about the future homes of my horses as I can be and I think the U.S. should have access to these fabulous horses that trace back to the 1600s. They are branded and microchipped as well which I hope will protect them in the future.
 

Lynn Ison
Breeding Stock
Username: Lynndi

Post Number: 682
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 05:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Terry.........My curiousity is peaked !!! What breed is it and a picture please !! I never expected to have the priviledge to raise a foal. I believe everything happens for a reason though. I bought my mare without knowledge of her pregnancy. I am older now and wanted to have a horse in my life after many years without (since I wasa teen).
Even though my foal is not purebred or worth a whole lot......I agree with you......they are treasures and to be raised and loved with dignity and respect. I like to believe we all do the best we can and the way we believe is right. I don't think any REAL abusers would take the time to share horse experience on these threads either....we just have different opinions and some people are just more sensitive than others. Friends, if we know we are doing the best for our horses......don't let what others say bother you. Life is good, let's enjoy it!

Hugzzz and friendship to all !!!!!!!!!!
 

Diana Gilger
Nursing Foal
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 18
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 06:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Applause, Lynn, I agree with you!
Hugzzz right back at ya!
 

Marilyn Lemke - Dora due 7/31/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 844
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 07:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Terry, I too have a fear when I sell or give my horses to anyone, that it won't be taken care of the way I think they should be.

I have given away 3 horses, (I haven't sold any so far) I check references and check out their facilities, ect to make sure they will be well taken care of. I even do a periodic check to see how they're doing, just to make sure. I have an understanding if they no longer want the horse, I take it back. I have gotten one back, because my friend had a divorce and couldn't afford it at that point. Then she remarried and asked for him back and I was happy to give him back, because she gave excellent care of him. She had to put it down last winter (he was 28 years old) he stopped eating and was going down hill quickly. She buried him on her property.

He had a great life with her family. He went to fair with her kids and then after that the grandkids.

If or when I sell this foal of Dora's, I'm going to be even more careful, because I've put my heart and soul into this baby and I don't want anything bad to happen. I know I can't protect them totally, but I can do my very best to make sure they have the best home possible.
 

Lynn Ison
Breeding Stock
Username: Lynndi

Post Number: 683
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 09:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ty Diana....LOL.

Marilyn that is real love there..to GIVE the gift of horse ownership when both horse and new owner benefit. I considered giving Koko to this girl I liked very much. She could not come up with the $500.oo I was asking for her anb was willing to do any work I might have to get her. She is very good with horses, has competed barrels etc and I got to see her interact with Koko in my round pen. But..........when I went to her (Mom's place -she is 16) I was not pleased with the living conditions and the shape of the other horse's feet. We went amoungst the horses when I visited..they were respectful and body condition was good, but my living standards are a bit higher........plus they were all boys !!!! Not my little girlie going there!!!!!!!! I just dont think it was meant to be and I have to go with my gut. This treasure deserves the best , and if it has to be with me then so be it. She is so smart..I think it will be a fun challenge to train her myself. She does so much for me already and I really want to see her all grown up.......
 

Marilyn Lemke - Dora due 7/31/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 846
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 09:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lynn, you did the right thing. You have to feel completely comfortable that you're doing what's best for Koko and if there is the slightest twinge of doubt, you have to go by your gut.

I'm sure you'll be very happy that you kept her. She sounds like a wonderful horse and easy to work with. She'll do you proud!

Who knows, maybe someday you'll have to find another home for Koko. But there's no doubt in my mind you'll find a home where she'll be very well taken care of.
 

Lynn Ison
Breeding Stock
Username: Lynndi

Post Number: 687
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Monday, January 21, 2008 - 10:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Marilyn
 

Tracy Smith, Tali due 6/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 623
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 12:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know if I'm cut out for the whole breeding and selling thing :-) I have a filly I was offered $5,000 for as a weanling and I couldn't do it! I worry so much that they won't be spoiled the way I do The same lady that offered me the money before recently contacted me and really wants her (she actually owns the sire of my filly) I know she would show her and wouldn't treat her bad but I worry anyway, it's so hard to let go! So Lynn, I can completely understand why you couldn't let Koko go. This is why I keep getting horses and not reducing my herd
 

Terry Waechter 5 march foals
Breeding Stock
Username: Watchman

Post Number: 126
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 02:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

you know, I am not exactly sure what took me from two mares and babies I could keep as long as I wanted....maybe it was the great beauty of these mares and knowing I could not have them except in a business context. I believe most buyers will want them badly and will take good care of them because they are rather irreplaceable. Hope so.....Now that I have the mares...I cant imagine life without them..
 

Marilyn Lemke - Dora due 7/31/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 851
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 06:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I feel the exact same way about my horses the way you girls do.I love them and worry about them. They are my family.
 

Lynn Ison
Breeding Stock
Username: Lynndi

Post Number: 689
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 - 08:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's a good thing I don't have more land !!!!

LOL.I would seriously consider Koko's dam for brood mare...and buy me another "riding" horse. Oh the dreams...LOL..BUT..***** I love mama Nugget and when I am finished getting her to ride and cue the way I want comfortably (she will be 5 in March) it will be time to start on Koko!!! I will be busy with what I got for a while..LOL
 

Beth
Weanling
Username: Beth13

Post Number: 26
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 06:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know this post has sort of drifted since I last posted and sorry to drag everyone back, but I want to clarify what I meant when I said 'we should love them for what they are' etc. I live in rural Australia and the marjority of my horses are work horses- two are too old to ride and the other two are Shetlands. The fact is my property would not function without them. I'm not saying love rogues and let them run wild, never. I can not speak for every rural Australian who relies on horses but, I believe that a horse is only as good as you train them to be. Parentage and pedigrees are all fine in their own right. Here is where many bushmen and women will stand by me- a good working, all rounder horse is more important than a registered one. I know that if I was given a choice between the two, I would pick the working horse. Thats not to say I'm against registering and many working horses are registered. My point is here, registering is not everything and it is not a major consideration I take into account when I'm buying. EVERY horse can improve and EVERY horse can backslide. I think people are making a big mistake when they look at the pedigree before the horse.
 

Tracy Smith, Tali due 6/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 646
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 08:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Beth, you make absolute sense and I agree with you but here in the United States it is a little different. We do have a problem with too many horses and not enough owners, we also recently closed all our slaughter houses so we are seeing an increase of abandoned or neglected horses. The unregistered mixed breed horses are the ones that tend to fall in these circumstances unfortunatley so we need to tighten the belt if you know what I mean. :-) With that said, I agree that just because a horse has papers doesn't mean it's a great horse. It sounds like in Australia the majority of horses are for a purpose other than a luxury, here most are pets so they need to be protected as best as we can.
 

Michele
Yearling
Username: Mich

Post Number: 81
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 23, 2008 - 11:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's more than just registering a horse. It's a matter a conformation. One would expect / hope / presume that the majority of registered horses have acceptable conformation, though in reality this is not the case and I don't even want to go down the road of registeries where anything goes...

At the end of the day, conformation is the most important thing: without good conformation the horse will break down and won't be able to be used for anything let alone as a stock horse and no amount of training can alter that. That's what concerns me: apart from an aesthetic point of view, what happens to that horse when it breaks down and has to be replaced?
JMHO.
 

Michele
Yearling
Username: Mich

Post Number: 83
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 01:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also meant to add that people who actually USE their horses for a purpose on a daily basis and as a means of livelihood, as Beth does, would obviously have to have sound, well-conformed horses who can take the pace, do the job and have a long working life.
 

Beth
Weanling
Username: Beth13

Post Number: 30
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 09:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tracy, I'm glad to hear America has closed all their slaughter houses and I understand what you mean about trying to protect them. In Australia, I think people breed for just about everything, some exclusivley for showing, some who don't spare a seconds thought for showrings and it is, I believe, becoming more and more popular to breed for horses that can both work and show.
Michele, I believe that it is most important to look at the horse standing in front of you. Conformation is very important and yes, conformation faults can and are carried genetically but I don't think they can skip generations, and you wouldn't buy or breed a horse that has faulty conformation would you? Certain traits are believed to be passed on genectically [like cow sense] but many brumbies and mustangs can be very good stockhorses as well, for example.
So apart from Tracy's point of protection and extra money if you sell them, what does the sire and dam give you except for names on a piece of paper? The horse standing in front of you. That's what it all comes down to.
 

Jenni Luttrell
Breeding Stock
Username: Bugrace2000

Post Number: 790
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 10:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BETH I THOUGHALY AGREE WITH YOU. I DO HOWEVER REQUIRE MY MARES AND STALLIONS TO BE REGISTERED SIMPLY FOR THE PROTECTION OF THEIR FUTURE AND THE SELLING POINT. AS FOR MY GELDINGS IF THEIR REGISTERED FINE BUT IM NOT BUYING THEIR PEDIGREE I'M BUYING THE HORSE.
AS FAR AS HAVING A PEDIGREE IT CAN HELP FOR BREEDING PURPOSES. TWO UGLIES CAN PRODUCE A BEAUTY HOWEVER IT WILL CARRY A RESESIVE GENE FOR UGLY AND IF BRED TO A HORSE WITH THE SAME RESESIVE UGLY GENE IT WILL PRODUCE AN UGLY. SO ITS NICE TO BE ABLE TO SEE A SIRE AND DAM
 

Michele
Yearling
Username: Mich

Post Number: 84
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 24, 2008 - 11:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Beth, conformation faults and genetically inherited traits can and DO skip generations - you have only to look at the human race to know this is fact... It's not as simple as saying 'what you see is what you get'.

AS for the sire and dam only giving you names on a piece of paper, this is not correct: Knowing where your horse comes from [i.e. bloodline / pedigree] gives you most of the information you need to know when making the momentous decision of whether or not to breed the animal. One can look at previous offspring, if there is any, and at any other horses with similar bloodlines to get a clearer picture of what you can expect.

Usually, only good horses are approved for registration within equine breed registries and therefore [hopefully?!] all the undesirables have been weeded out.

The other point is, when breeding [and here I am assuming one actually WANTS to breed good horses] one wants to develop a reliable phenotype and genotype so that all the horses from the same line /breed have all the same desirable characteristics and traits and there are no nasty surprises.
Breeding with 'no-name brands' [i.e. horses of unknown parentage] prevents one from doing this as it is literally anybody's guess what the parents and grandparents looked like.

It's the above which keeps the price of registered horses higher than that of grade horses and makes them more desirable. If I see a horse / pony of unknown breeding which I think looks good I would no more consider it for breeding than I would consider crossing a road blindfold...

BTW, I'm not an authority on the subject of slaughter houses, but consider this: with slaughter houses in the USA closed, where do those unwanted horses go to? Left abused, starving and neglected or set 'free' to become feral [as is happening on a more and more regular basis] or loaded on a truck to make the long journey to Mexico or Canada? Closing the slaughter houses is NOT the answer - STOPPING BREEDING SO MANY [FUGLY] HORSES IS THOUGH....
 

Beth
Weanling
Username: Beth13

Post Number: 34
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 29, 2008 - 02:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree that looking at a horse's sire and dam and their other progeny is helpful especially when you are breeding a mare to an outside stallion or vise versa.

I want to make it clear now that nothing I say here is intended at any one in particular.

So many people get hooked on breeding from pedigrees. Racehorse breeders are a perfect example. People will pay hundreds and thousands of dollars for a yearling from a certain line and that is for a reason, I'll admit that. Because that the line is proven. That fact is undeniable. But registration is not 100% guarntee, only 99%. So many things can happen. Colts can get in, mares can abort and can get herself in foal to another stallion, mares can get mixed up and accidently be bred to the wrong stallion... This doesn't happen regularly I know, but it does happen.
AQHA's reputation for crop outs is another great example. Crop outs occurs because one or both of their parents have been mistakenly identified and registered as solids when they are actually minimally marked paints.
Everyone has thrown good points at me. Yes, a registered horse's future is more secure. Yes people just set free their horses. Yes I hear a lot end up at the slaughter house. Yes looking at a horse's close relations is a help in breeding. I admitt they are all true. But I will always look at the horse first and the pedigree second.

But Michele I will never, never agree that "closing the slaughter houses is not the answer"
 

Michele
Yearling
Username: Mich

Post Number: 85
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 29, 2008 - 11:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I feel I'm probably wasting my time here but nonetheless.
The reason so many people base their breeding upon pedigrees is because it works... and we don't just look at pedigrees we look at the animal in question as well.

As for registration not being 100% guarantee, I beg to differ. As far as I know all [reputable] registries require DNA from the horse to be registered. This proves parentage.

As for horses with mistaken / incorrect / false pedigrees I think this is a very definite case in point for actually registering your horses with the relevant society. See 2nd paragraph.

It's not totally accurate to say that cropouts occur because one or both parent[s] were mistakenly identified. It's usually much further back in the pedigree than the immediate parents, and as I previously said, happened long before DNA testing was available and people went by sight and word of mouth and not genes.

The reason there were / are AQHA cropouts is probably because the registry started long before DNA was available. Those original non-Quarter Horses which were / may have been assimilated into the registry are now so far back that it's immaterial now. Enough progeny have been produced since then to form a phenotype and genotype. It would be like saying all Thoroughbreds should also be registered as part-bred Arabs because they originate from three Arab stallions.

It also proves that traits DO skip generations and pop up when you expect it least.

The point is, one should be trying to better the breeds one breeds, not go around in a circle making the same mistakes never improving. Every generation should be that much better than the previous or there is no point to breeding.

Regarding slaughter houses it sounds like you think it better that a horse is trucked many miles away to another country to be killed rather than killed closer to home? I can't work out the logic.
I repeat, closing slaughter houses is not the answer. What is the answer is stopping giving the slaughter houses a reason to exist - i.e. overpopulation of unwanted horses.
 

Colleen Beck
Breeding Stock
Username: Gypsycreations

Post Number: 306
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 29, 2008 - 11:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

RE Crop out quarter horses: These can and do occur because of an unidentified sabino gene lurking in the horse's DNA. There are SEVERAL sabino genes, some don't have tests available for them yet. As genetics progresses, these crop-out genes will be more readily identified.
 

Tracy Smith, Tali due 6/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 689
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 29, 2008 - 02:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, I don't know anything about QH's but I was going to say something very similar also backing up Michele's point of traits popping up when you least expect it. I bred an all bay mare with one white sock to an all bay stallion with 4 white socks, small strip down his face. I bred this combination 3 times and the first 2 times I got bays with some white. The third time I got a chestnut sabino with a huge belly spot, large white stockings and a blaze down her face! If it wasn't for DNA I would of sworn she was accidentally bred to a paint! After I recovered from my heart attack I was able to remember that Khemosabi bloodlines are common for the sabino gene, now if my horse was unregistered and I wasn't sure of her family tree I would think my Arabian was not purebred and be very upset. Does this mean she would be any less of a horse? NO, but she would of been worth less without DNA backing up her parentage.
 

Beth
Weanling
Username: Beth13

Post Number: 38
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 01:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Michele, killing the horses isn't right. Maybe I love horses too much. Let's just adgree to disagree on this topic.
I am still learning about colour genectics, but I thought that you had to have at least one paint parent or one that carries a paint gene to get a paint [of any pattern], the way that breeding greys work. Can a gene stay hidden through several generations?
I didn't know that the breeds registries require horses to be DNA tested. I knew that the Throughbred Studbook and AQHA does, but not all of them. And as a breeder one should always try and breed better horses every generation. Its just that it really irritates me when I see and hear people look at the pedigree before the horse. you see I heard of a person who bought a horse just because that he was from a certain bloodline, the only horse at the sale that day, and he was too much for the person to handle and turned rogue. I don't know what happened to the horse and I know everyone dosen't do it. But wasting good horses like that really makes me angry.
I'm searching for relations of a mare we used to have and without the registry, it would be impossible so. Maybe we all got a little carried away on this
 

Tracy Smith, Tali due 6/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 746
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2008 - 11:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Beth, I don't know about all registries but the Arabian Registry does require DNA testing. Again, I also don't know much about color genetics but the Sabino gene can lay low over several generations before popping up. Hence my heart attack!



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