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Has any one of you encountered this problem .........

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » General Mare Questions - Volume 1 » Has any one of you encountered this problem ......... « Previous Next »


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Lori aka " Raven"
Nursing Foal
Username: Raven

Post Number: 14
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2006 - 08:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I originally started to read the post after my mare was bred. My first posting was under the thread "Palpataion v test...." and I had posted a few in there about her. Now I have a mare that cannot be bred for the love of anything. At first I did not beleive my vet when he said that she was barren. I should have pushed at him more to find out why but he is not the type for someone to tell him how to do his job. So I tried to research it on my own. It was not untill I had another vet come in and check her out did he finally start to do something about it. But I think we might have been too late. Now she is in such a mess that I have lost all hope in being able to breed her. If you go back and read the post from that thread it will catch you up on some of this.
The vet finally agreed that she had mastitis but...there is NO INFECTION in her blood to conclude this prognosis. Just that her udders swelled up to the size of a stallions testicles. And have stayed that way. She did not start putting weight on till (which would have been the start of her last trimester) December of last year. She was adding the weight where she should, if pregnant and acting all pregnant as far as behaviour. But a false pregnancy. The vet figured that her hormones were out of wack so we gave her HCG along with pred for the mastitis. This did not work, only made matters worse. She continued to blow up all over. I did more research and asked about thyroid. Did that test, funny it came back as a hyper not hypo. Stumped now. Ran a few blood tests, no infection at all in her system or any imflamation. But she continues to grow fat!
The vet insists I feed her too much....huh...her feed has not changed one bit in the last 3 yrs same quantity and quality.
Her is her picture, the first one is from the summer of 2004:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e107/rav123en/Hailey0009.jpg
This one is from May-June 2005 after I bred her in April 2005:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e107/rav123en/HaileysBody.jpg
This is Hailey just last week before Chu kash was born:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e107/rav123en/Haileyheavy.jpg
This is how her udders are left like:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e107/rav123en/Haileysudders3-8-06.jpg

Has any one of you ever come across this type of problem with broodmares? Or can any of you think of what to look for? Jos, if you are reading please your suguestion would be appreciated!
 

Heather Kutyba
Yearling
Username: Heatherck11

Post Number: 96
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2006 - 10:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Raven,
I'm no vet, but do work for them! How old is she? Any change in hair coat, drinking habits, or urination?

From your photos, she seems to have 'aged' over a small period of time. The few symptoms, along with her pictures would make me somewhat suspicious of Cushings disease? Has she been tested for this?
While not 100% acurate, a low-dose dex test may be in order (after consulting/researching/etc.). Cushinoid horses tend to get cresty in the neck, more pendulous abdomens, fat depostis above their eyes, neck, and hips (fat pads), changes in hair coat (wavy and are slow to shed out), and sweat easily. They also tend to drink/urinate frequently. Some have thyroid levels high/low. Cushinoid mares will often have problems conceiving/carrying to term.
Once again, I'm no pro..but it may be worth discussing with your vet.
She's a good looking girl...and the arena ain't half bad either!
 

Lori aka " Raven"
Nursing Foal
Username: Raven

Post Number: 18
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 06:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heather,

To my estimate Hailey is about 18yr old. At one time she was registered but the papers never followed her along nor did her real name. So we have to estimate her age. I have not seem any change in hair coat but as I think last summer when she sheded out it was not as sleek looking as normal. She seemed to still have a heavier coat all summer. Since December when all this started she drinks 2 1/2 times the amount of water than before.Sometimes there is more urine in her stall than normal other times there is not. I have not noticed any fat deposits above her eyes but elsewhere there are lots. She is very irriatble when you touch her in the flank area and neck/chest. This is a mare that you could do anything to and she would not care.

Is there a good informational web sit about Cushings disease in horses? Thanks again this is something to look into.

Loved your last line.
 

Kim Winter
Breeding Stock
Username: Clafairy

Post Number: 174
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 08:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Raven - I would have to say, (and Im a nobody in vet skills) that Jos seems to have picked up some good points by the sounds of it and I agree with her on the pictures - If you go onto www.ask.co.uk and type in Cushings disease there are quite a few sites that will come up.

Hope when you speak with the vet they can tell you what is going on. Be nice to have something solid now hey.

All the best
 

Lori aka " Raven"
Weanling
Username: Raven

Post Number: 21
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 10:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks gals, I did a quick search on Cushing Disease this mornign and acording to the symtems Hailey has all except two, long shaggy coat and laminitis. Everything else hits it on the nose.
If it is this Cushings disease at least I will be able to treat it(hopefully)or at least make her comfortable. Yesterday and today she does not want to come out of her stall (NOT LIKE HER).
I am going to have to have a good talk with my vet on this. I know he will give me a hard time about testing her for this. Do not get me wrong about my vet he is great just bullheaded at times. Typical male (sorry guys)!

Kim I will look at that site you sent later. Thanks
 

E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Evie

Post Number: 194
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 11:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori- good luck, I'll be interested to hear what comes of your testing, to the casual observer, she looks pregnant..
 

Lori aka " Raven"
Weanling
Username: Raven

Post Number: 24
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 12:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Now that is what I wanted to hear.

Ev-
"to the casual observer, she looks pregnant.."
That is what I had been telling my vet from December on. I am begining to wonder now if the shot of Lutalysis did not put all this into motion?? Because she really bloomed after that shot.

Heather- is the test for this a simple blood test? If so what color vacutainer do I use? Would be easier to know so I can drop the blood off to my vet and say check for Cushings Disease.
I'll let you all know what happens with Hailey.
 

E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Evie

Post Number: 201
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 01:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori- best of luck, maybe your vet is way off base and the mare is actually pregnant? she's certainly the right size and the udder development would be right in line with a foal due mid to late March. Please be sure to let us know how this turns out.
 

Lori aka " Raven"
Weanling
Username: Raven

Post Number: 29
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 02:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ev- it would be a dream come true if by chance she was pregnant but her udders are solid mass( scare tissue) and she would not be able to nurse. I know there is milk replacers. Her udders have been like that since January. It is highly unlikely now tha tshe is pregnant. Unless even the second vet how ultrasounded her is wrong as well. Stranger thinks happen, I know.
Any of you know how to read a blood test result??
Keep you all posted as it goes along...
 

E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Evie

Post Number: 209
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 03:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori- sorry, I can't help you there, best of luck though, it's sad to have problems and no idea what's wrong or how to help them. Keep us apprised of how she's doing. Ev
 

Heather Kutyba
Yearling
Username: Heatherck11

Post Number: 97
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 06:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori, I will call the lab we use at work and get the specifics on the test for you.
However, an injection of Dexamethasone does have to be given....my understanding is that Pre and Post blood samples have to be taken at certain intervals.
I will get the info for you.
We do this test, and others that are specific for adrenal gland disorders, all the time at work. The dexamethasone suppression test & the ACTH test are the 2 most widely used.
When I write later, I will have that info for you, along with some other stuff.
 

Lori aka " Raven"
Weanling
Username: Raven

Post Number: 31
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 07:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heather you can just email it to me. Look on my profile.Also if I was to send you her last two blood test results could they get some info from them? She has been on Dex for a week during all of this and then went to prednisone. Neither helped. But I am willing to try anything!!!
Heck I'd even ship the blood to you if need be!
 

Heather Kutyba
Yearling
Username: Heatherck11

Post Number: 99
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 10:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori,
Will email you with some information. I can help you in reading blood panel results. You can post them or email them to me.
 

Lori aka " Raven"
Yearling
Username: Raven

Post Number: 57
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 09:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heather, I finally got a hold of my vet today and he is looking into the tests for me as to cost and such. I also asked him about EMS that maybe it is that instead. I had sent him the same pics as what is on here and he stated that all the change he could see is that the one picture was taken in the summer when she was sleek looking and the other Hailey had her winter coat on. He asked two other people and they said the same as he. AAARRRGGGHHH! He is supose to be out to the barn tommorow so I will ask more then. I'll let you know what is happening.
 

Heather Kutyba
Breeding Stock
Username: Heatherck11

Post Number: 104
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 - 10:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I still persist in my statement that, from the pics, it looks like 2 different horses.
As I said before, I'm not a vet and would never encourage to go against a vets recommendation.
I don't "know" your mare, her history, etc. However, YOU do....and if you say that somethings not right....than you are probably correct.
I've worked in the vet industry for 15+ years and the most important thing I've learned is to listen to our clients...no matter how far fetched things may seem...because they are more knowledgable and intuitive about their animals than we ever will be.
It is up to the doctors and staff to listen to clients concerns AND HEED THEM...not disregard them. Go with your gut.
 

Lori aka " Raven"
Yearling
Username: Raven

Post Number: 61
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 06:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You have the same feelings as I do regarding the owner usually knows the horse better than the vet. And if not the owner than the care giver of the horse.

Thanks, I'll keep you posted.
 

Lisa Weir
Breeding Stock
Username: Pals_pal

Post Number: 156
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 08:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amen, ladies!

I know vets know more than most of us about the clinical side of things, but those of us that care for the animals everyday know the difference between an apparently quiet horse and a nutbag who doesn't feel too good, or a lovely horse who is suddenly cranky and irritable.

I'm very glad our local vet pays attention to us on things like this.

If you are concerned...as you should be, you should just ask for the test to be done, regardless of what the vet says. You are paying for it, not him.
 

Kathee McGuire
Breeding Stock
Username: Katheekj

Post Number: 144
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 03:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is slightly off topic, but my vet was out today and I learned that 75% of the horses in the United States do not received vet care and that only 15% see a vet twice a year. I was really shocked that the numbers were so negative. I can understand the 15% better if the horse is generally healthy, but never seeing a vet...wow.
 

Lori aka " Raven"
Yearling
Username: Raven

Post Number: 70
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 05:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The vet came out and he actually looked at her in person. His remarks was "yes she has the crested neck and fat distribution but her belly does not look like a pot". So next week I am going to test the ACTH (something like that) levels.It is a simpilar test to do.
He liked the look of Chu kash said he had good hip and stifle nice build to him. Looks good.
Heather- the other horse is just arthritic nothing else. Good!
Just letting you all know what is happening.
 

Danielle Roosen-Runge
Weanling
Username: Rolling_hills_quarter_horses

Post Number: 33
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 06:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kathee -- you have to realize that many ranchers/breeders do their own vet work. I myself don't have the vet out for anything other than emergencies (knock on wood) last emergency vet call was in 2000. I have never had a horse colic in 20 years of working and owning horses. I have an equine dentist out annually and my horses have an equine muscle manipulator out several times a year to make sure there bodies are in tip top shape.
 

Heather Kutyba
Breeding Stock
Username: Heatherck11

Post Number: 105
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 08:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori,
FYI, the low dose dex test has been documented to be more diagnostic than the ACTH. Always good to do as many as possible, but would definately push the LDD test.
The ACTH test is the preferred test for adrenal gland function in small animals....but has been shown to be pretty vague in horses. Worth doing, but would be best used in conjunction with the LDD.
 

Kathee McGuire
Breeding Stock
Username: Katheekj

Post Number: 146
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Tuesday, March 14, 2006 - 09:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Danielle - That does make sense. I hope most of the 75% of horses not seeing a vet are being treated by someone with equal competence like yours are. I guess it would depend on knowing how many horses belong to private owners and how many are on larger farms to know whether or not this is a disturbing number. It just sounded so large to me.
 

Danielle Roosen-Runge
Weanling
Username: Rolling_hills_quarter_horses

Post Number: 34
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 02:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kathee - The unfortunate thing is there is a fair amount of negligence on the part of novice horse owners. I get calls annually for some things that just could have been prevented. Being located where I am if the vet can't be located people have a tendency to call me. I have seen some bizarre things in past years. I still am no expert on breeding though... some of the things my mares do throw me for a complete loop. I have been thinking about teaching some equine emergency techniques to the locals and you bringing this to the front is making me more interested in doing so. I have horsemen that have many more years under their belts contact me for techniques to get bleeding to stop etc. I just know what has worked for me and many of the things that get novice horsemen calling vets should be things that they could treat themselves. If I called a vet for every small nick and abrasion I would never be ahead of the game. Don't get me wrong... if I have any hesitation I call them. Since we are on this note if you have not seen this product I have recently been introduced to it and it is now one of my favorites. Go to {http://www.underwoodhorsemedicine.com} just check out the testimonials they are amazing. I wish that there was a clearer picture to show what actually the true statistics are Kathee!
 

Kathee McGuire
Breeding Stock
Username: Katheekj

Post Number: 149
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 03:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Danielle - Thanks for the tip - it sounds pretty amazing - the good Lord knows mine are always doing something to themselves! When my 5 yr old QH was 3, he was so big (16h) and klutzy he tripped over his own feet. Finally he grew into himself and learned to walk!
I have also seen so many preventable injuries or basic injuries that became major problems because they were not treated properly. I learned that in Alabama horses are considered livestock (makes sense) But, because they are livestock, there are no restrictions on the amount of space they must have as long as they have food and water. I learned this because I reported neglect to our animal control - horses tied to trees on about 15 ft of line, no grass, hay or shelter. Legally, there was nothing anyone could do as long as they had a water bucket and received some type of nurishment. Anyway, I just get so frustrated at people who keep animals without being prepared or willing to care for them properly. I have a whole soapbox speech regarding spaying and neutering of dogs and cats, but I would be preaching to the choir here. I know eveybody on this board goes above and beyond or they wouldn't be reading/posting. Maybe you could come here and give your seminar!
 

Lori aka " Raven"
Yearling
Username: Raven

Post Number: 72
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 05:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heather, Now I am confussed again. Does not take much anymore. :-) MY vet said the ACTH test is better than the LDD test. He said it is more accurate to test the adrenal gland function than the LDD. Now is he telling me this just to appease me??? Because a while back I did hear through the grape vine that he wanted nothing more to do with my mare. This always sits on the back of my mind when I approach him on Hailey. Or do I call the University of Guelph and talk to their endocrinology(sp) department and ask them what is best? I trust what you are telling me, please don't get me wrong. I just feel like a tennis ball in a match.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10521
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 11:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think it is important when reviewing the above statistic provided by the veterinarian that one considers that many people are more than capable of - and do - deworm and vaccinate their own horses. There is therefore no need for the veterinarian to be involved in seeing the animals, and it's only if they have a problem or sickness - which if the preventative care has been effective they won't - that the veterinarian is involved.

Certainly when we were running large herds of horses, fewer than 25% of them got to see a veterinarian each year - indeed if 25% of them had been seeing a veterinarian we would have considered that we were doing something very wrong!!! :-)
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 483
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 12:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We don't use a vet unles we have a medical problem that we need assitance with. I learned along time ago (a very avid animal person) that the vet charges climb so high it makes it impossible to use a vet for every thing. We vaccinate our own, deworm our own, and one of the local equine vets is so busy that he can't be there for routine work, if you schedule routine work with him, you may not see him until 8 at night as emergencys come first.... My husband has done ai in cattle and we had a mare that needed to be flushed for a week or so ?? and the vet gave us the meds to do it with. Told my husband if he can do ai work in cattle then he can do it in the equine too--equine is easier than cattle. The vets that are livestock vets are easier to work with than those that are in it for the "pet" business. Vets that are registered with aha--?? Animal hospital Assocition..?? Dont' look at things reasonable. Again they are in it for the "pet" business. We take the health of our animals seriously but there are limits as well. We have learned many techniques to save us the call of a vet. We use to tube worm once a year. Found out from the vet what they use to tube worm and which is otc wormer and keep the horses in the barn overnight without water and offer them a couple of gallons of water with wormer in it the next morning.... Took the cost of worming 10 from 200.00 bucks to less the 20.00. Our vets in the area, are also distributing the wn vaccine to equine owners as they don't have the time to vaccinate for it. This is a seven vet large animal clinic and most of their clients as well, only use them for health problems or situations that need the assistance of a vet. I have also learned to ask how much before you say go ahead. I had a mare that tore up her leg between her chest and knee , when the vet came out , he said sure we can fix it. The skin was hanging below the knee due to gravity, and 750.00 bucks later, 8 buttons sewn to her leg, 12 weeks of home therapy , the mare walked off fine, and I had to sell her just to cover vet expense. I now ask can you fix it ? then how much will it cost ?

I am happy when I am closer to zero percent seeing a vet! We have been very successful with our breeding program. Success rate is high/live healthy foal deliverys are at 100 percent. Only had one severe case of colic in the past 20 years that required a vets attention-otherwise we keep meds on hand just in case and only had to use it on a mare what was a cribber and sucked wind. The colic that was treated by a vet was to the extream that the vet said he had as much meds in him as possible and was still in pain. Vet told us to haul him to the state clinic 3 hours from us(we knew he wouldn't make the trip-he couldn't stay standing-when left alone), We said load him up with more meds, we walked him and walked him, we asked for a time frame to be acceptable before we would make other judgement calls. Finally the horse came out of it. If it were up to the vet he would have given up with the meds he had adminstered and shipped him off. I personally think he was afraid of loosing the stallion myself. He didn't want to loose the guy on his watch.


We do the same with our dogs too, the only thing that the vet sees a dog for is its rabies because in the state of indiana it must be administered by a vet(and that a three year deal now! yippie!). Otherwise we vaccinate and worm them too. Only call for major things. Why pay a vet bill to have them listen to the heart, look at the eyes, ears and teeth and say oh yes everything is ok and then you have a problem a week later-- well he was fine. I save my money for the have toos.

sorry for the long winded statement, but I have learned after believing that the animals needed their well visit checkup... I just don't do it anymore.

Kim
 

E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Evie

Post Number: 258
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 01:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ditto what Kim said, we call a vet for stiches, severe illness..etc. but we do a lot on our own too with good results.
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 484
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 01:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Boy that was a easy post for you Eve! Ditto ! I think I will wait next time and just post Ditto ! LOL Glad others agree!

Kim
 

E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Evie

Post Number: 260
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 01:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LOL, Kim, I'm always glad to sit back and let others do the talking.
 

Heather Kutyba
Breeding Stock
Username: Heatherck11

Post Number: 106
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 02:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori,
The ACTH stimulation test IS a good test, don't get me wrong. It is the primary test for adrenal gland function in small animals (does he treat small animals and horses?). However, horses are not dogs/cats, and testing/medicine, and while some are good for one, may not be the case for the other.
As far as the ACTH, if it is to be done, it should be used in conjunction WITH a LDD test to provide/rule out a diagnosis.

Here is an article from the research department of UC Davis that gives a bit better explanation:

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/ceh/RR03ME01-09.html

Frankly, it is terribly inappropriate for any medical professional to make statements to others regarding personal(vs. medical, informed)opinions. If your vet isn't interested in providing the care you want for your animals, it's time to move on.
However, before jumping the gun, perhaps it would be of benefit to talk to him. Gossip is infectious and harmful....if your vet has been good to you and your horses; if you have confidence in him...talk with him. You will find out pretty quickly where he sits....and if there is some communication gap.
If you have a veterinary school near you with an endocrinologist on board, by all means utilize these people!!! Our doctors call specialist daily to ask questions, clarify, and provide superior care. If you can't get your vet to be responsive to this (or he won't do it), call yourself.

Trust and confidence is of utmost importance with vets. If you don't believe the two of you are "on the same page", or find yourself wondering if he care's....and can't get feedback from him about his decisions regarding the care of your horses....then you need to get a new vet. With all hope this is not the case.

Having an endocrinologist would be an absolute asset. This person could resolve any doubt about what to do, care to provide, steps to take. His/her advice would be invaluable.
 

Lori aka " Raven"
Yearling
Username: Raven

Post Number: 84
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 05:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heather,
Just got thinking if he does not go for this I will go to one of the others just for a dex shot and will have you fill in the assay but I will submit the serum from here. Sounds okay to you???
 

SDS
Neonate
Username: Whisper05

Post Number: 8
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 10:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Raven your mares udders look like my mares now getting ready to foal in the next 30 days,my oldest mare is 23 and she forms her udder the way your mare has,but always dries up good at weaning.There are some mares that get the fat pockets in front of their udder,but not sure why,I always assume they are just well fed.If your vet treats you that way,you might find another vet,if possible I know it can be hard living in a smaller community.Try to find a first rate equine vet that has a heart.
As for having a vet out,about the only time I do is when I need coggins or health papers,I do all the "doctorin",from stitches(unless it is too deep),shots,deworming right down to delivering the foals,but seems I need one to come out and do some scrapings,and tell me why one of my mares is missing some hair.Havent had any colic alerts in many years.But since we dont have an equine dentist in my neck of the woods I have the vet come out to float teeth annually.Good luck with your mare and I hope that you get some much needed answers on her problem.
 

Heather Kutyba
Breeding Stock
Username: Heatherck11

Post Number: 115
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, March 18, 2006 - 10:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori,
Absolutely, no problem. Just let me how I can help, and we'll figure it out and get it done.

P.s. saw the question you had about Chu Kash and his size. I don't know how big he was at birth, but a 44 inch 2 wk. old foal is "no slouch". He sounds like he's doing well! Buddy was born 42.5 inches (darn big for maiden foal)....I shudder to guess his size now.
As long as your boy is eating, playing, pooping, and happy I wouldn't worry too much(fyi, this is what everyone kept telling me...).
Oh, also for time line purposes on your preferred color...buddy is 8 wks and is now starting to shed out his foal coat...so tell Chu Kash the count down is on!
 

Lori aka " Raven"
Yearling
Username: Raven

Post Number: 87
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 05:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heather I needed a good laugh in the morning. I would suspect he was about 36 inches at birth. I did not measure him but from where he came to on me that first day.

Thats it COUNT DOWN ON!!!!! for Chu kash!
 

Lori aka " Raven"
Yearling
Username: Raven

Post Number: 88
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 05:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Forgot to add, remind me what Buddy is?

Who's going to need a step ladder first!
 

Lisa Weir
Breeding Stock
Username: Pals_pal

Post Number: 164
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 08:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's interesting about the % of horses who see a vet. 100% of our horses see a vet at least once a year. But that is because all the breeding work is done by a vet, all the microchipping and DNA testing has to be done by a vet and any insurance check ups, also.

So considering that we breed and raise mainly for selling or agist for clients who usually insure their horses, we can't escape having the vet out on a very regular basis. :-)
 

Kim Winter
Breeding Stock
Username: Clafairy

Post Number: 193
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 09:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have the vet out all the time! Im a bit of a worry wort it would seem, or my mare is disease prone!!! We have had the vet for leg wounds when I bout her, antibiotics were given, Absesses that were lanced, navicular x-rays and nerve blocks, when there were blood clots on her vulva, when her face swelled up(still no idea why, allergy?) when we bought her into season, when we AI'd, when her jabs are due.... All the time!

I think its different in the UK, You cant get hold of the stuff yourself easily, I know they do alot more themselves in the north of the country, but down here, its not really heard of - The vet does it all. It is very expensive - but I like knowing that I have the all clear on things, Id not trust myself to do my own jabs and things. Day to day care, cuts and scrapes is what I do. I will be foaling on my own - but of course the vets number will be on hand for me.
 

Heather Kutyba
Breeding Stock
Username: Heatherck11

Post Number: 118
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 11:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori,
You're funny!
Mr. Buddy is a QH (appendix). His sire is a HUGE horse, measuring 17.1. I'll send you his link later so you can see him.
As far as the ladder thing....well I'm putting money on me needing it (so saving for that TOO) first....I am only 5 foot tall :-). When Buddy stands up, his head is taller than mine already. I can't give him squeeze hugs anymore without the threat of getting a black eye!
I may be taking him and Grace to my friends breeding farm today. The repro vet I use lives down the street from her, and can come ultrasound her as often as needed, and arrange semen transport.
I have a free breeding to a really nice stallion, but as I count up the dollars it's going to take to get her in foal....so much for the "free" breeding. They've waived the breeding fee ($1250), but I still have to pay a chute and shipping fee...then, of course the vet bills.
 

Kim Winter
Breeding Stock
Username: Clafairy

Post Number: 194
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 12:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow $1250! Is that a normal stud fee or is it because of the stallion? Here my stud fee was 200 for the semen and 100 for the shipment (I think that is about $500 dollars, Im not really sure) He is quite a well bred stallion but is a native pony breed rather than a Thoroughbred or warmblood which would cost more. I saw a grulla QH I liked that was frozen semen for $800 too, Jazz mighty mouse...He was lovely but with a mare getting on for 18yo I wanted fresh/chilled really.

What is the next stallion you are planning to breed to?
 

Lori aka " Raven"
Yearling
Username: Raven

Post Number: 91
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 01:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh GOD Heather you had me!! I needed a good laugh this day. Thanks!
Ya, I think you will need the ladder before me. Would you like some $$$$ donated for one?? It will save in the long run from those black eyes!! Would not want you looking like a raccoon now, would we??
I would be interested to see what his sire looks like and what you are going to breed to next. That is if you do not mind. Good luck with Grace!

I'll let you know tomorrow what the vets says about the tests.
 

Heather Kutyba
Breeding Stock
Username: Heatherck11

Post Number: 121
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Sunday, March 19, 2006 - 11:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi all!

Kim,
Well, yea it's a lot of money...but I got it free!!! Breeding fee's can normally go anywhere from $300-3000, depending on what you want and how much money you have. I don't have much! So, I do tons of research, check the stallion auctions, etc. Last year, I got the breeding fee 1/2 off through an out of state stallion auction. You should try grocery shopping with me!
My mare is QH, and I bred her last year to a QH.
Same thing this year....QH to QH
While $1250 may sound like a lot to you and me, it's a pretty fair fee for the caliber of stallion. I'll put the link to the stallions for you, but the sire of the stallion I'm breeding my mare to this year...and get this...was just sold for over $2 million dollars. His sire's stud fee is now $6500. These boys BETTER ship well!
Regardless, I still don't have anywhere that kind of money...I work for a vet, for the love of pete!

Lori,
Hey, my feet reach the ground just fine! But, I am glad you got a laugh :-) . Keep that ladder fund going...'cause I'm gonna need it! Sure don't need racoon eyes...
Buddy is such a good boy! He lets me do anything to him. I was sitting in the stall next to him this evening, and he put his head in my lap. It was so sweet. At least I could look eye to eye with him <giggle>.
I would LOVE to show ya'll Buddy's daddy and the stallion Grace is to be bred to this year.
So, here goes
Grace X Art's Self Portrait = Buddy
http://www.hanesperformancehorses.com/ you'll have to click on his name at the top.
Grace and Buddy at 3 days: [IMG]http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/HeatherCK11/P1010038-2.jpg[/IMG]
Here's Buddy!: [IMG]http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/HeatherCK11/Buddy7.jpg[/IMG]

This years stallion: Extended Invitation http://64.106.177.156/invitation.htm

Sorry 'bout the long post....
 

Kim Winter
Breeding Stock
Username: Clafairy

Post Number: 197
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 04:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heather - Lucky girl - He is really nice.

I do that same thing myself - I have a friend that keeps stallions and was going to let me breed for free with him - and hes only kept across the road from where I was so It was really handy. In the end he decided he didnt want to though because hes never covered before and he didnt want to change his temperament. I also have an old contact who breeds dales - A near rare breed, and I love them! He covered my mare for me in april last year and only charged me the transport for the stallion and covered at my yard - she didnt fall though and the stallion had never covered before, I didnt want to keep going on that because her seasons then went to pot and I wanted to make sure I caught her this year, with him not being proven, I didnt want to risk wasting my time. Its lucky when you can find ways and means outside the expensive routes hey. If I can find a nice broodmare (mines a bit old and I worry about her navicular) I would like to breed to one of his dales this year, maybe I just buy one of his foals - Or broodmares, but they are vry pricey - Oh no........... I think ive got the bug!! Ive really enjoyed this breeding.... : )
 

Lori aka " Raven"
Yearling
Username: Raven

Post Number: 95
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 05:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heather, YOU ARE VERY LUCKY with the choice of Studs. Both are very gorgeous.You lucked out as well with Buddy. Very jealous!!!!

Kim watch that bug, it gets under your skin and you cannot get rid of it! :-)
 

Kris Moos
Breeding Stock
Username: Kris

Post Number: 362
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 06:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yes it does, i think i caught it too,(again, had it a few years back) very nice baby heather! he is just a proud looking little guy! (ok big)
good luck with your new breeding!
 

Kathee McGuire
Breeding Stock
Username: Katheekj

Post Number: 169
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 09:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heather - very impressive on both studs! No wonder Buddy is so handsome.

I am afraid I have the bug too, and I wish there was a perscription for it becuase I need more land to pursue it! My husband nervously jokes that we are going to have to relocate to accomodate my horses...he is still not too sure where I am going with this! I am planning on breeding at least one more time. I have Bay mare that is 20 and just received her "go ahead" from the vet. She has the best personality and is the easiest riding horse - very responsive but will adjust to accomodate the level of the rider. I would love an offspring with that temprement for our granddaughter (disclaimer - I am only 42 - husband's grown son!).
 

Kim Winter
Breeding Stock
Username: Clafairy

Post Number: 201
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 11:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kathee - I too need more land. I have a 3acre paddock so am paying for a three horse field, but I could squeeze in a forth, only Id have to agree it with the land owner and Id have to pay more - Trouble is, I dont want to breed from my mare again as she has navicular and I worry that its too much weight for her. So I need a four horse in order to make enough room for my mare, my foal to be, a new broodmare, and the foal I would get from that! I need to win that lottery so that I can get my nice house with my own land! Anyone know a good psychic!!!
 

Lori aka " Raven"
Yearling
Username: Raven

Post Number: 97
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 11:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WOOO HOOOO !!!! Heather, I grabbed my balls and took the paper work into my vet. Told him this is what I want done, showed it to him. Told him Bet labs is where I want it sent to. My answer back " YEP we can do that, I'll get you a kit together later and you can do this testing"????? I walked out kind of amazed happy but amazed.
Now my balls can go back on the shelf. :-) I'll let you know when I get the test results back.
 

Heather Kutyba
Breeding Stock
Username: Heatherck11

Post Number: 124
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, March 20, 2006 - 09:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey all,
Thanks for all the great comments on the stallions and Buddy. I have been VERY LUCKY with all of this. Both of these stallions are unproven for all intense purposes, so it is a gamble regardless. Buddy leaves me breathless everytime I look at him, but I'm terribly biased so have no true scope :-) you know how that goes. He could look like a donkey, and I'd still think he hung the moon.
It's been a relief to have some good, as Buddy is actually the product of a very bad year.
Grace was injured and had to have 2 reconstructive surgeries on a front leg to save her(or put her down). She had to be stall confined for 6 months...so I bred her hoping for something good to come out of all of this. At 5 years old, she is permanently retired from riding...but has proven herself as a broodmare.
Now, the question is....what am I going to do with all these horses!!??? Guess we're all in the same boat.

Lori,
You deserve a medal. Unbelievable. Send me your address 'cause I'm shipping you a bottle of wine or liquor (your choice)!
 

Lori aka " Raven"
Breeding Stock
Username: Raven

Post Number: 108
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 06:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heather I will not be totaly excited till I get the results back. Testing starts this morning. Everything will be shipped out tomorrow afternoon.So hang onto that bottle of liquior till I get my results.
Last night my friend who is a trainer stopped by to see Chu kash and Lady for her opinion. Well she even thought he was extremely filled out and nice size. As we were talking, Buddy and his breeding came up in the conversation. She just adores Buddys sire. They own a buckskin stallion who has won two years in a row reserve (i think it is) at the Buckskin world in OK. The stud has too many titles added to his mane for me to remeber all of them. Anyways I send her some pics of Buddy (hope you do not mind).
So hang onto that bottle till the weekend when I have the final results, either way if they come back positive or negitive I will need it then. While she was here she had looked at Hailey and the first words were "OH MY GOD what happened to her!!!!" She had always loved the way Hailey looked.Next remark "Hailey looks horrible, no shine and miserable". I remembered the other day that last summer Hailey never fully shedded out to a sleek look, she still had some coat all summer. Hind sight, she must have been starting this back then. Hailey has changed in appearance even from last week. Lot more fat deposits all over (lumpy looking) and does not want to move quickly.
 

Heather Kutyba
Breeding Stock
Username: Heatherck11

Post Number: 130
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 08:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Lori,
Wow, good to know that someone else who knows your mare can confirm what you are seeing. Must be a double-edged relief. Everything that you describe (and others) is pretty typical of pre-cushings symptoms. It may also explain her udder issues...I've seen similar symptoms in geldings with sheath swelling/fluid retention.
While I know we both want those tests to come back negative...at least if they confirmed a diagnosis...you will know what you are dealing with (vs. being in the dark). I am eager to see what the BET lab results are.
You deserve the liquor prize either way. This sounds a bit stupid, but I'm SO proud of you for standing up to your vet and demanding the best of care!! Especially when he kept blowing you off. It would have been easy to have conceeded to the fact that he is the vet, and "is supposed to know best". Always go with your gut...and you have. It bothers me that you have to work so hard to get quality care for your horses. But, I could get on a huge soap box...so I'll just let it go <sigh>.

How flattering you are to me to share Buddy's photos! It's one thing for me to be proud of him, but wonderful to know that others like him too. His sire, Art's Self Portrait, is a new stallion. 2006 is his 2nd foal crop. I would love to know what you friend thinks! Please feel free to show his pics. Also, get her stallions name, as I think I know which one it is.
By the way, your Chu Kash is a very good lookin fellow...you have MUCH to be proud of. He beams of quality (and naughtiness). I was suprised to see how filled out he was...I'm betting he's gonna be a big boy...and a steel grey with black legs, and black mane/tail....that's my prediction and I'm sticking to it.
 

Lori aka " Raven"
Breeding Stock
Username: Raven

Post Number: 118
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 09:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heather, Oh you have no idea how much relief it is for someone else too really see the diference in Hailey. Lynn had always like Hailey from the start. Honestly, I do hope it comes back positive at least than I will know what I am dealing with and also then I can RUB it in his face! I will not, but by sure the peacock feathers will be showing!!! If not and they come back negitive than I am still in the dark. I will only gain if it comes back positive. It will give me a sence of accomplishment. As far as having to work at getting what I want, well that is normal for my life.... and I'm sticking to that one!!! Here is another pic of Hailey back in 2003
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e107/rav123en/Haileyaug2003040.jpg
Lynns stud's name is Dunplayitbytherules aka Dually. He is standing this year as his first year in (I think they said) Illinois or Indiana. It is a big buckskin breeding farm. He is a couple of pics of Dually and Lynn. http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e107/rav123en/Dually2042.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e107/rav123en/Dually1041.jpg
When I was telling Lynn about Buddy but I could not fully remember what his sires name was just that it started with Art. She said it right off the bat and told me that she has seem him a Congress and fell in love with him. She wanted the owner of Dually's dam to breed to Art's Self Portrait but he would not go for it. Dually has his Halter,HUS,Western pleasure,English pleasure and Reining Championships. He has competed numerous times at Congress.
When Lynn was over she told me a few things to do with Chu kash. Today I tried them and he was awesome. He weighed in today at a wopping 192-195lbs. I'll let you know what she thinks of Buddy. I'll also go with your prediction I like it better!!

I send it all of tomorrow for the testing. They should have it by Thursday or Friday and I'll get the results the same day.
 

Heather Kutyba
Breeding Stock
Username: Heatherck11

Post Number: 131
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 21, 2006 - 10:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I now have this mental image of you with a full plume of feathers...struting across the Canadian tundra!
Chu Kash IS a big boy! Sounds like he may be bigger than his mom or dad...time will tell.
Dually is a good looking stallion. I tell ya, he certainly will be one to keep in mind in the next few years. Do you know how he's bred and how tall he is? It will be interesting to see how his first foal crop is, and what color he throws!

The guy who owns ASP took him to Congress & World...had him in the "stallion isle"...ya know...advertising in live form. He is an unproven stud, but his first 2 foal crops have been remarkably good. What stuck me about him, is that he is an exceptional mover. I had no intention of breeding to such a big stud, but kept coming back to him because his movement was superior to even the "proven" stallions with massive breeding fees.

Are you going to be breeding any mares this year? Chu Kash is such a good colt, are you going to breed your mare back to the same stallion? What VET are you going to use :-)!!!!!
My repro vet is coming out tomorrow AM to ultrasound Grace & see where she's at. I have a feeling she's coming in heat...but she's a silent girl....so who knows.
 

Lori aka " Raven"
Breeding Stock
Username: Raven

Post Number: 119
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 06:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heather that image is going to have to go from your head . Maybe once the results come back then you can imagine it for a little while. But only a short time....thats all! :-) You are going to permanetly scar me...giggle!
Dually, I think now is about 16h or could be more now. When he left my barn he was still growing. I can ask Lynn next time I talk to her. I pulled his pedigree, but I was not able to put in on photobucket so I will email it to you. His dam is a palomino and sire black. At the Buckskin world last year he was the poster boy for the show. He just about beat out the AQHA presidents horse in one of the classes but stumbled and came in further down the line. The AQHA pres came up to them and remarked what a beautiful horse he was and he should have won the class.
Lady I am going to breed again this year on the 30 day heat to a red roan overo medicine hat stallion. I had posted his picture up on the other thread. I think it was under Ravens story. Unfortunatley I have to use the same vet. hehe :-)
Good luck with Grace today and that you have caught her in enough time to be able to breed again.
 

Lori aka " Raven"
Breeding Stock
Username: Raven

Post Number: 158
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 04:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For those that were following the results came back normal. But I had included with the test a brief history of Hailey and pictures of how she had looked and now. Bet labs had looked at the pictures and said definatley she has Cushings. The when they did the test and they were normal they still want to treat her for the disease because 15 % of the horses come back as such and have the disease. They were very impressed that an owner took the time to take notice of their horse and the changes that occured. They want to follow her case.
Just want to say THANK YOU Heather for leading me in the right direction on which to follow. Without this board and the people here I probably would not have been able to figure out what was wrong with my horse. So for those of you that do see changes that should not be there, question your vet and if he cannot tell you, do not give up on your quest to find out what is wrong with them. Question whoever you can and get some ideas as to what it could be. Because there is always someone out there that has seen it or has come across it first hand. At least then you have some referance to go by!
 

Heather Kutyba
Breeding Stock
Username: Heatherck11

Post Number: 147
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 10:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori,
You are very welcome, and I'm glad I could be of help. YOU are the one who needs the pat on the back. Good for YOU. As I told you prior, it is up to those of us (like myself) who work in the vet field to LISTEN to our clients and not judge. Over the years, I have learned that our clients can be a wealth of information if we allow them to...owners (like you and I) know our animals better than anyone else.
When you feel as strongly as you did that Hailey was not right...your instinct is most likely correct.
Had Haileys before and after photos not been so dramatic, I probably wouldn't have pressed you to pursue it. But, you were so insistant that she "wasn't right", and she looked so different. You should be proud...you have prevailed in getting the care your mare needs. Not only that, you found THE BEST professionals in the field! Done well :-)



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