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At what point do you consider unsound for breeding?

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » General Mare Questions - Volume 1 » At what point do you consider unsound for breeding? « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Anonymous
 
Posted From: 66.211.207.156
Posted on Thursday, August 11, 2005 - 10:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi! I was wondering if anyone has any experience with legally defining breeding soundness? I am about to enter into a lawsuit over a mare that was supposed to be breeding sound but biopsied IIB and has a large cluster of cysts mostly blocking the left uterine horn. To me this is not breeding sound. They are saying that if she could possibly ever have a foal she is breedable. Any help would be appreciated. Also if anyone knows of any good websites for legal advice. Thanks
 

Dorthy (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 136.181.195.17
Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 07:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Try this website it may be able to help you

www.equinelegalsolutions.com
 

Anonymous
 
Posted From: 66.211.208.104
Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 07:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks. I will try it. Its a sticky situation because it was an individual that I had known for a long time so I didn't get things in writing like I should have. :-( Stupid I know.
 

Rooty (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 69.196.103.102
Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 10:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A friend of mine has a mare with 3 cysts in the left horn right where an embryo would like to hang out, and her vet considers that the mare is not breeding sound.
 

Anonymous
 
Posted From: 66.211.207.104
Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 01:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thats about the same as this mare but with some other issues also. They are claiming that since the cysts can be removed it shouldn't constitute unsoundness. I traded this mare for a really nice yearling on the condition that if she didn't pass a vet check for breeding soundness we would just swap back. Well once they got ahold of my colt they just disappeared off the face of the earth and have been near impossible to even contact. On the few occasions that I have talked to them they either say that there was no such agreement made or that the mare isn't that bad so they aren't taking her back. I filed a civil suit today. :-( Hated to do it as I considered this woman a friend and have known her for 15 years. Just proves that you really need to have it all in writing regardless of who you are dealing with. I really wasn't sure what others considered unsound for breeding as my vet says she does have a small chance of carrying a foal. I don't feel its really worth the money to try with such a small chance of success.
 

cathy Cook
Nursing Foal
Username: Razmacat

Post Number: 14
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 11:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Who cares what we think, according to your agreement the mare has to be called breeding sound by your vet, so what does your vet say? Why didn't you all check her before trading?
 

Anonymous
 
Posted From: 66.211.207.63
Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 08:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well thats the problem. We didn't discuss what exactly would constitute breeding sound. I just said that the mare needed to be checked breeding sound. I didn't say she had to have a certain biopsy or anything like that. I've not been breeding horses that long and the two mares that I currently have, have not had any problems. The owner of this mare lives out of the area now so she just said she would leave the mare and I could get her checked out and if there was a problem she would back in the area in a month and would bring my colt back then. The colt was still a stud and it was easier for me to not have both of them at the same time because of limited turnout space. I didn't expect the mare to have problems and I trusted this individual so I didn't think it was a big deal. They have implied that my vet possibly doesn't know what he's doing, which I know to be untrue. I just wondered what other breeders would consider breeding sound.
 

Rooty (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 69.196.103.102
Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 10:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, I can tell you my friend's mare was bred AI once and live cover 2 times and didn't catch. This was a case of betrayal of trust as well, but I won't get into the story. I have heard that removing the cysts is fairly simple, though. Perhaps the mare's former owner would like to pay for that procedure in order to avoid a law suit?
 

Anonymous
 
Posted From: 66.211.209.78
Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 10:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't really think they intend on trying to work things out at all, unfortunately. Also I have heard that cysts often come back in the same place and must be removed yearly. Don't really want to deal with that. The location of the cysts would make it necessary to have them removed by laser. This mare won't stand for live cover and has to be AI'd so that just adds to the expense if she doesn't take after multiple breedings.
 

Dorthy (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 4.229.204.215
Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 10:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The way I understand the law as long as they "implied" the mare was breeding sound--if you can get a vet to examine the mare and say she is not breeding sound(in writing), even with out a contract you have a case. I recently had to take someone to court over a nasty pony we bought that was suppose to be beginner safe--we had no contract but won in court because they had implied the pony was safe for a beginner. If you know where the people live write them a letter giving them options to "work it out" like them paying for the surgery or even paying for 1/2. The court likes to see that you have tried other avenues before you decided to sue
 

Sandy D
Yearling
Username: Sbr_appaloosas

Post Number: 97
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 01:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I personally would consider this mare unsound for breeding. If there are medical procedures needed before breeding can even be attempted, that is unsound, plus the fact that your vet said there is a "small chance" that she could carry a foal to term.
I know you said that these folks have moved out of the area, but is there any chance that you could just take the mare back to them and pick up your colt, rather than you waiting for them to bring the colt back? I think you have the right to do that, and that's what I would be doing if it were me.
Good luck.
 

Anonymous
 
Posted From: 66.211.207.30
Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 04:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If I knew where the colt was I would try. The BF, who was not present when this deal was made, has been pretty nasty and I think would cause a big fuss if we showed up there. I have their home address but know that their horses are not there. I have repeatedly tried to contact her by phone but she will not return my calls and I quit calling because the BF claimed that I was harassing them. Having the cysts removed won't solve all this mares problems as my vet says even without them he feels she only has a 50% chance of a successful pregnancy. I hadn't really thought about mailing a letter, that would have been a good idea. Once I realized they had no intention of honoring our agreement I didn't really want to waste anytime getting something done about it. I've found quite abit of information on the web and hope with a good lawyer and the vet backing me it will turn out okay. I really hate having to do it this way but if they won't communicate with you how can you work anything out?
 

cathy Cook
Nursing Foal
Username: Razmacat

Post Number: 15
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 07:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well playing the devils advocate, they did say if she were determined not sound for breeding they would return your colt and take their mare back and that would be about all you could ask out of an exchange that was so loosely done. So this being a pain is a light price to pay to learn that in every deal no matter who it is with has to be in exact writing and signed by both parties. Breeding sound does not have to be laid out or exact. If a vet, who is a professional in this matter, says she is not sound for breeding, then bingo, she is not sound. You don't have to go into the hows, whens and whys, it just is. She is just not sound. I would not even consider surgery on someone elses problem horse, after surgery she is yours. For you have altered the item sold. Like trying to return a ring you resized, does not happen.
 

Anonymous
 
Posted From: 66.211.204.123
Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 05:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Believe me I'm feeling pretty stupid right now for not having this all in writing or keeping the colt here until the mare was checked. It really is too bad though when you can't trust someone you have known since you were kids, who professes to be a christian. :-(
 

Sandy D
Breeding Stock
Username: Sbr_appaloosas

Post Number: 102
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 06:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't feel stupid, we all learn from our mistakes. Sometimes even when you have things in writing it doesn't go as planned. I am dealing with someone right now with whom I did have things in writing and more than likely I will be taking her to small claims myself.
But it was my own fault. I let her mare leave my premises without the stud fee being paid in full. Eventhough I state in my contract that all fees will be paid before any horse is to leave my facility. She promised to mail me the payment. After a month of no payment and unreturned phone calls I decided to drive to her home. Got there, found no one around and found the mare I bred lying dead in a corral. The party showed up at the home while I was still there, as I had called the police, she said she had no idea her mare was dead as they had been out of town for 3 weeks. She wrote me a check on the spot, needless to say, it bounced. I just spoke with her two days ago and she now tells me she will be mailing me a money order, and it should arrive some time this week. I am not holding my breath.
So as I say, we defintely learn from our mistakes as I will never let another horse leave here without payment in full for services. So, you shouldn't feel stupid, cuz I'm trying not to
 

cathy Cook
Nursing Foal
Username: Razmacat

Post Number: 17
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Monday, August 15, 2005 - 09:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Trust me if I have learned anything in all my years it is to trust very few people. Especially when there is a horse attached to the other end.
 

Anonymous
 
Posted From: 66.211.207.138
Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 11:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm learning my lesson, the hard way as usual! Found out today that the mare is 2 years older than what I had been told also. This just keeps getting better and better. :-(
 

cathy Cook
Nursing Foal
Username: Razmacat

Post Number: 19
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 12:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LOL soon you will find out she is a Morgan or something ridiculous!
 

LRidgeway
Weanling
Username: Laurie

Post Number: 43
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 05:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think in most States a verbal agreement is just as binding as a written one.

On a separate note, I had read (here I think) that Cysts seem to be more bothersome to mare owners than they are to the mares. Which I took to mean that they aren't 'that' bad.
 

TX Breeder (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 65.169.207.74
Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 07:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

After years of dealing with the public I have realized one thing; most people just do not know that they DO NOT KNOW.

It is a difficult situation that you find yourself in, however, they are most probably ignorant of many things concerning horses. More than a trust issue, it may be an information issue. For that reason, clear concise contracts are your best defense.

If you do indeed end up in court, find yourself a good expert witness to testify in your behalf. They need to inform and educate the jury or judge while explaining your situation.Your best bet would be another breeder with years of experience. You may find it difficult to get a vet to testify.

On the subject of age, it can be very easy to have an almost 2 year difference in approximate age. One person may go by the exact age by month during the year that the foal was born instead of the year. In that case, a foal may be 6 or more months older when counting from the year alone. Once you get over 10-12 years old, it becomes harder to tell the differnce between a horse that is 11 coming 12 or 12 coming 13. Depending on the care and feed that the horse has had, tooth wear can vary and make it hard to pinpoint age. As with this example, almost a 2 years difference can happen with all good intentions.
 

Anonymous
 
Posted From: 66.211.206.221
Posted on Tuesday, August 16, 2005 - 10:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The cysts wouldn't bother me so much if they were in a different location. They are pretty much blocking the left horn however.

In some cases I agree people just don't know any better but in this case I don't believe it to be true. I would love to try to work this out but they won't even discuss it. I do have a good witness and the vet is writing me up a paper and having it notarized which should make it legal. The mare is registered so I don't think the age thing was an accident either? Can't believe myself that I didn't look at the papers but I didn't. I already own this mares full sister and knew that my mare was younger. I thought there was a two year difference and was told it was only one only to find out its 3 and the mare is 19!
 

Lisa Weir
Nursing Foal
Username: Pals_pal

Post Number: 14
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 17, 2005 - 08:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

At 19 and with cysts, I would say unsound. It sounds like they were trying to get rid of her and thought they got a good deal.
And to think it was supposedly a friend who did this. You are obviously very trusting and I hate seeing people having their trust abused. You have my sympathy. Good luck, I hope it all comes out well for you in the end.
 

Anonymous
 
Posted From: 199.89.170.92
Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 01:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was kind of following this and am curious did you ever gte resolution on this?
 

Anonymous
 
Posted From: 66.211.208.45
Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 08:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not yet. We have a court hearing next week. I'll let you guys know what happens.
 

Amanda (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 65.19.65.21
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 08:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was reading this and wondered how the court hearing went.
 

Anonymous
 
Posted From: 66.211.208.159
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 08:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well I did finally get my colt back! It cost me quite alot of money and a huge amount of hassle. I'll chalk that one up to a lesson learned the hard way. We didn't actually have an open court hearing, the lawyers just hashed it out in front of the judge. I had found out that the judge couldn't actually make her give the colt back only make her pay for him. They only wanted to offer me a small amount of money and the judge was getting frustrated because the whole horse thing was very foreign to him. They really didn't want it to go to a real hearing because they knew they would be caught lying. Finally they offered him back to me for what they supposedly had into him. It was pretty ridiculous as I had their mare for the same amount of time. They claimed training costs although he was only 18 monthes old and already knew everything he needed to know at that age. I was getting really sick of the whole thing and didn't want it to go to arbitration so I just gave them the money and went and got my colt. He better turn out to be one heck of a horse after all the trouble I went through to get him back! I just really didn't want to see her have him after all the trouble she had caused me!
 

E Watkins
Neonate
Username: Evie

Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 11:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, this was a very interesting situation. I have to say that my husband does sell and trade a lot of horses, on more than one occasion he's gotten the shaft by making "verbal aggreements". He's from the old school though and refuses to change his ways, he's a firm believer in a man's word is good enough. I think in the future I will be more careful in my horse dealings having learned from your mistake ! Thanks for sharing,

Ev.



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