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Why do people not do frozen semen more then cooled shipped semen?

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Frozen Semen » Why do people not do frozen semen more then cooled shipped semen? « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Jodi Maki
Yearling
Username: Mysteryarabpt

Post Number: 95
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 01:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I notice not that many stallion owners do frozen semen. Why is my question? You'd think it would be more handy all around.

Do not as many stallion's semen freeze well is that it?
 

Dee Jay
Yearling
Username: Djscoloredcorral

Post Number: 98
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 02:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jodi:

I am in the process of freezing straws on my own stallions and I am finding that there are many mare owners that do not know enough about frozen semen and many vets that do not want to be bothered AI'ing frozen semen because the window for success with frozen semen is smaller than that of fresh semen.

Also, many equine vets do not have the facilities to keep straws frozen and do not want to become storage facilities for certain stud owners.

Frozen semen must be inseminated within 8-12 hours of ovulation, fresh semen has a little longer shelf life of 24 hours pre ovulation and there is a protocol now available to reduce the ultrasounds using HCG or P&E

SO the problem lies not within the frozen semen protocol but within the veterinary profession with vets deterring mare owners because they don’t want to have to do multiple ultrasounds (usually 2-3) per cycle. Most vets will say anything - I quote from one vet “I have a life and can’t be bothered with breeding with frozen semen”.

Secondly, you are correct in your assumption that there are studs that do not freeze well, and therefore, frozen straws are not offered. I think that a post thaw motility of under 45% is considered poor, and to get the correct number of progressively motile sperm, the stallion station has to ship more straws, which in turn can cause irritation of the mare if almost half the insemination is "dead" on thawing.

There are some very good articles on this site on frozen semen pros and cons and the benefits of frozen vs fresh etc. Just go to the search link and type in fresh vs frozen semen.
 

Terry Waechter P.R.E. foals
Breeding Stock
Username: Watchman

Post Number: 409
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 10:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is true you need a very professional and willing vet to use Frozen Semen but if you have the ability to use Frozen Semen it can expand the possibility of a special foal.
 

Jodi Maki
Yearling
Username: Mysteryarabpt

Post Number: 96
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 10:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks

Well I sure wish more did. As for me I live in area where semen takes 2-4 days to get here. Or you have to travel 4.5 hours one way to go pick it up. I would much rather have semen shipped to my area and have it stored at vets and pay storage fee or even have it shipped to 4.5 hour location where vet can store it until I can pick it up and have my vet store it. So I have it right there when ready to use it. I would order enough my self for up to three breedings, if more stallion owners did this. I have figured out cost for me thanks to reproductive vet and for me frozen would be less costly and lots easier. So Arabian stallion owners if your reading this think about all the clients you might have if only your did frozen semen.

Our vet clinic was long time in doing AI and collection, but once they did they even do frozen.

(Message edited by mysteryarabpt on February 12, 2009)
 

Dee Jay
Breeding Stock
Username: Djscoloredcorral

Post Number: 102
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Wednesday, February 11, 2009 - 10:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Me too Jodi. I think it is only a matter of time as the more expensive studs are showing more and are just not available for breedings once the show season starts. If mare owners want to breed to those special studs, they are going to have to use frozen semen and vets are going to have to be willing to include it in their practices.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2276
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 03:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

With the use of a timed insemination protocol the need to repeatedly ultrasound the mare is avoided. In fact I know of people that have used no ultrasounds at all, nor palpation, and have bred the mares themselves using that protocol, and have had excellent pregnancy rates. Follow the link for more details.
 

Dee Jay
Breeding Stock
Username: Djscoloredcorral

Post Number: 104
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2009 - 07:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

great article Jos. I am forwarding it to my own vet as well as two mare owners clients who have stated their vets would have to ultrasound every 4 hours to get the right time for ovulation.
 

Dee Jay
Breeding Stock
Username: Djscoloredcorral

Post Number: 128
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 08:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Jos: I sent your article to the station where my stallion is being collected and frozen and Debra said to say hi ! Apparently you took a seminar from her in Guelph when she was working at the Equine Research Center. Small world isnt it? SHe now runs IronHorseEquine.com near Guelph Ontario and is doing my frozen straws for me until the stallion leaves for Australia.

D
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2286
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 12:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Deb and I have worked back and forth on quite a few items over the years, and in fact I was just talking to her and e-mailing her just a few days ago! Yup - equine reproduction is a small world!
 

Dee Jay
Breeding Stock
Username: Djscoloredcorral

Post Number: 129
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 01:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yep, now if I could just find a good repro vet in my area (Deb and my stallion are a good 5 hours from me) I would be all set.

Seems the vets around here dont want anything to do with frozen straws. Might have to see if the warmblood facility he stood at last year would do the inseminations as they work primarily with frozen straws and do their own inseminations on site. They are about 40 minutes from me so I could take my mare there no problem.

D.
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2287
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 07:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Might be cheaper in the long run to synchronize several mares using P&E and then trailer them all at the same time to a vet good with frozen.

Just a thought... :-)
 

Dee Jay
Breeding Stock
Username: Djscoloredcorral

Post Number: 131
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Wednesday, February 25, 2009 - 10:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ive got a shout out in my area to see if any breeders have a good repro vet experienced with frozen semen. So far no replies.

Heres another question:
What would you do with a mare that doesnt show heat cycles that you want to inseminate? I have a stallion in mind for her that I can ship fresh semen on until the end of April (then hes in training and out of the breeding shed except for frozen straws)

I would like to have a particular mare inseminated with fresh - less hastle for my own vet (who doesnt do frozen) but problem is, I dont have a stallion on the broodmare farm to put her in the mood. She doesnt show heats so how am I supposed to know when the time is right to order semen and go through the motions of getting the timing right other than to haul the vet out to do a couple of ultrasounds? More farm visits means more costs.

One of my buddies says to needle her and get her into heat like clockwork, order the semen and badda bing badda boom, yer in business. It cant be that simple can it?

Ive never needled a mare so im not familiar with how that works.

But, my question here.... what if we needle her and shes just been in heat.. what would that result be?

How long after shes needled will she come into heat if

A) shes just gone out of heat
B) shes not even ovulating yet
C) shes inbetween heat cycles
D) everything is right and the needling does the trick and works.

 

Chris Taylor
Nursing Foal
Username: Galaxy

Post Number: 16
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 06:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You'd need to scan her to determine size of follicles and work from there. Silent heats are very frustrating to deal, we've had a few of them.

A) If she has just gone out of heat then a 5 or 6 day wait before PG admin is usual for short cycling them. She will start to show signs of oestrus 2 to 3 days after injection, we use Lutelyse and that's the typical response we've experienced.

B) Ovulation is the release of the ova into the uterine horn where it awaits fertilisation signalling the end of the oestrus and beginning of dioestrus

We don't freeze our stallions as its a very tricky setup to get right which is reflected in the price of frozen. Chilled is a lot easier but still needs to be managed correctly and has a typically higher pregnancy rate.

Is there a Live Foal Guarantee (LFG) with the frozen semen you had in mind? That's an important consideration too. Lots of the European stallions that send frozen down here to New Zealand don't have a LFG, you pay your $2000 to $4000 service fee for an agreed amount of straws and if your mare doesn't take you've lost your money & need to start again.

I give LFG with all my services whether by natural cover, or AI with fresh or chilled, provided the mare owner complies with certain requirements.
 

Dee Jay
Breeding Stock
Username: Djscoloredcorral

Post Number: 150
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 08:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Chris:

Thanks for your reply:

Yes, there is a LFG with the frozen semen, the problem lies in the fact that each additional collection is extra, and with the dry shipper, that is extra too, on top of the fact that the vets in my area dont have storage tanks so the dry shippers have to be returned pretty much as soon as you receive the shipment.

Its alot of hastle doing the shipments by frozen and with the extra charges for collections and shipments with each failed insemination I could be in the same boat with a loss of money and no foal.

Not to mention the fact that selling foals these days seems to be somewhat in the toilet for prices, alot of people just arent buying until the economy starts to pick up.

I think I will skip this year for this mare and see what happens with next year. I could always cross her with my own stallion that is coming your way next month (sold to Chittering WA) before he leaves and use fresh, but it wasnt what I had in mind.

Anyway, Its worth some more thought and investigation from my end.

D
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Admin

Post Number: 2300
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Tuesday, March 10, 2009 - 04:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your simplest method is to confirm that she is ovulating, either by a blood-progesterone assay (as many as three, one week apart, with levels below 1 ng/ml may be required to confirm that she is still transitional or anestrus), and as long as she is cycling, use P&E. It can be started anywhere in the mare's cycle, as long as she is cycling, and will give predictable ovulation dates in the majority of cases. It can therefore be invaluable in the case of a "silent" mare!
 

Dee Jay
Breeding Stock
Username: Djscoloredcorral

Post Number: 153
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 08:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jos: Am forwarding this info to a guy I think I can get to do the inseminations. Hes a vet, has his own barn and does frozen, fresh and embryo transfers, and lives about 20 minutes from me :-) He doesnt advertise these services but I think I can get him to do the frozen semen protocol for me without too much trouble.

D
 

Carol K
Nursing Foal
Username: Rodawn

Post Number: 12
Registered: 05-2009
Posted on Thursday, May 28, 2009 - 02:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm considering getting a used/refurbished portable ultrasound machine and doing all my own AI. I've seen enough to know what to look for in follicle size and how to measure it. In the past, I have asked my repro vet to inseminate half of the semen within 4-6 hours of an expected ovulation and then inseminate the rest of it just after ovulation. I have had excellent success with this method and it seems that by the time there is an inflammatory response, the semen has had a chance to swim up where it needs to go. In fact, it was so successful that this vet now does this with all of her repro clients.

In response to a poster above who had a vet tell them he "had a life and couldn't be bothered with frozen" - if a vet said that to me, he'd lose all of my farm's business (standard health care maintenance, as well as all of my repro work). Why would a vet get into repro work in the first place if they couldn't be bothered to provide the whole service? Gimme a break.
 

Darkhorse 2572
Neonate
Username: Darkhorse2572

Post Number: 5
Registered: 03-2009
Posted on Saturday, July 25, 2009 - 08:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We offer frozen semen as an option on all 4 of our stallions, and have almost as many frozen requests as fresh/cooled, so I think frozen is becoming more mainstream, albeit slowly!
 

Chris Taylor
Weanling
Username: Galaxy

Post Number: 26
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 03:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We are now offering frozen semen from our 14.2hh hunter jumper stallion. Came about as I took some freshly chilled semen down the vet for my mare that is there for ET, they used 15ml of the extended ejaculate on the mare and asked if I wanted to freeze the rest, I went ahead and the thawed semen was 45/70 or 65% live rate so was very happy with that.



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