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What colour do you think i will get?

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » What colour do you think i will get? « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

lynsey
Neonate
Username: Lynz

Post Number: 1
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 07:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hi everyone,

this is my second thread, i have a flea bitten grey mare, who is in foal to a palomino stallion.

The mare was born chestnut and the stallion was also born chestnut.

The mares sire is grey and her dam is chestnut.
The stallions parents were both chestnut.

I think i will get a chestnut foal, what do any of you think.

My mare is a maiden mare so i dont know if she carries a dominant grey gene.
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 193
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 10:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

lynsey the stallion can not be palomino if both parents are chestnut. One would have to be palomino for him to be. Horses also do not change from chestnut to plaomino.In all liklyhood he is a chestnut with flaxen mane and tail.

Your mare does carry the gray gene or she herself would not be gray. Also as one parent is not gray she only carries one copy of the gene.

So the foal will be chestnut with a 50% chance of going gray.
 

lynsey
Neonate
Username: Lynz

Post Number: 3
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 01:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thats strange, i own 6 chestnut horses and the stallion is palomino, on his papers though it say his parents are chestnuts.
 

Heather Kutyba
Breeding Stock
Username: Heatherck11

Post Number: 280
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 09:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is a genetic "impossibility" for two chestnuts/sorrels to produce a palomino. Palomino results from a creme gene being passed...which sorrel/chestnut does not have.

I have seen (on more than one occasion) sorrels with flaxen manes and tails been passed off as palomino, when this was not the case.

A Palomino X Chestnut/Sorrel results in 50% Chestnut/sorrel & 50% Palomino.

Palomino's are born palomino.
 

E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Evie

Post Number: 528
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 11:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cathy- we have had a palomino horse turn grey at the age of two, the grey will dominate but the creme gene is still present, just not apparent.
I'm with you on the palomino not coming from two chestnut horses though, I don't believe that is possible. (we've come across a lot of horses that are not registered correctly over the years, so that may well be the circumstance in this case)
 

Susan Lea
Weanling
Username: Brandysgrandma

Post Number: 27
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 06:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Somewhere on another thread (or site) it was pointed out that palomino is a color registry, not breed. Sometimes a horse that is genetically a chestnut but looks palomino can be registered as a palomino. Perhaps that is what happened.
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 196
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 07:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Cathy- we have had a palomino horse turn grey at the age of two, the grey will dominate but the creme gene is still present, just not apparent."

Evie any color will go gray if they carry a copy of the gray gene, and they will always still have the original color gene. I'm not sure what you are disagreeing about in my post.
 

E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Evie

Post Number: 535
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 11:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cathy- sorry, I wasn't disagreeing, just adding in to the conversation. Over the years, I've seen some really oddball color changes.. and a whole lot of horses that were registered one color but had changed significantly. We had a gray for instance, she was born palomino out of a palomino mare and a gray stud, as a yearling started changing to gray. She's now registered as gray but I'm assuming she could still produce palominos. The chestnut thing confuses me though, I thought that the creme gene would always be apparent unless it was on a black based horse. I'm beginning to think that I'll never really understand these color genetics! ( the trouble I had with understanding bays is that I was assuming the base color was RED and the agouti gene put the black on them, now I get it that it's just the opposite.. )
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 198
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 09:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Evie I'm sorry I didn't understand what you sere saying. :-) you are right that your mare can pass her cream gene and not her gray gene and produce palominos. You are also correct that the cream gene will always show on a red based horse.
 

E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Evie

Post Number: 536
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 12:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cathy- ok, so there is SOME hope of me understand this now, another bit of information I've heard, that the red genetics are more recessive, is that correct?
 

Heather Kutyba
Breeding Stock
Username: Heatherck11

Post Number: 295
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 11:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi all,

I got to looking around because now I am confused about the coat color genetics :-)!
Here is a good site on UC Davis that goes over the basics. They do have other areas on the site that is more in depth, but this is the meat and 'tatoes..
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/service/horse/coatcolor.html
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 199
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 09:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Evie you are correct. :-) Red is recessive to black.
 

E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Evie

Post Number: 538
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 11:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cathy- that's cool, as I said before, MAYBE I'll get this straight in my mind some day.
 

Kris Moos
Breeding Stock
Username: Kris

Post Number: 814
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 12:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a question...can a black foal result from a non black parent?
I local stallion i know is a bay, he was bred to 2 different palomino mares, they both had black foals...how is that possible?
 

E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Evie

Post Number: 540
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 01:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kris- if I'm understaning correctly, a bay is a black based horse, so if it passed that on but not the agoutti gene, that could result in a black.. ( Cathy correct me if I'm wrong on that ) Don't know if I told you but I'm in mourning, I sold Sage and Cisco last night...I've decided to sell all the horses and take a break from the expense and responsibility for a while.
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 200
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 07:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Evie it looks like you understand alot more that you give yourself credit for.
 

Kris Moos
Breeding Stock
Username: Kris

Post Number: 818
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 10:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ok, got it, i was wondering if he is a black with cream and not bay, his sire was a palomino, so i thought id ask if it were possible, and from the sounds of it...yep! thanks!!!!
 

E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Evie

Post Number: 542
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 10:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kris- we have a breeder friend that has a black mare ( Avery's mother ) that has produced several palomino foals from a gray stud (who has no creme gene anywhere in his pedigree) That mare is out of a buckskin and a gray stud (the same one she was bred to) Yes,inbreeding at it's best, the first time was an accident now he does it every year on purpose and he has gotten a palomino every time. Avery is out of that black mare and a dun stallion, I still think she could carry the creme gene and IF I ever have the $$ to do it, I'd like to get her tested to see, just to satisfy my curiosity.
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 145
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, August 04, 2006 - 01:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The genetic testing isnt expensive at all. You can go to the UC Davis website and download all the info you need. 30 mane or tail hairs with roots attached and the proper paperwork and a cheque for around $35 bucks will get you the color testing for creme and black and red.

Check out the website under equine laboratory testing to see for yourself.

Deb.
 

Kris Moos
Breeding Stock
Username: Kris

Post Number: 821
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, August 07, 2006 - 07:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yep, its not too bad pricewise tohave a dna test done, idid it through pet dna on my yearling to see if she was a grullo or dun. interesting though, thanks Ev!
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 146
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Monday, August 07, 2006 - 10:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes I did it too on my Bay mare to see if she was homo for Agouti or not, so I would know what colors of stallions to cross her with. Turns out she is homo for Agouti AA, so even if I bred her to a black stallion, she will never give me a black foal, as homo for agouti means all black based foals will be bay as agouti restricts the black of a black horse to the points and makes it a bay.

While I do not necessarily think that everyone should DNA test their horses for color, there are times such as this, that it takes the guesswork out of resulting foal colors and therefore makes choosing stallions easier based on the color possibilities.

I would test for tobiano homozygosity before I would test for color, as in the paint horse world, homozygous tobiano is more valuable information for those breeding for color versus breeding stock.

Deb.
 

E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Evie

Post Number: 544
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Monday, August 07, 2006 - 11:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kris- what were the results of your test on your filly and how long did it take to get them back?

I had printed off the paperwork to have Avery tested some time back, but never did pull the hair and send it in, I should do that. (if she comes back positive for the creme gene, it would give me something to look forward to next spring and make me reconsider putting her up for sale too) Is there a test for dun factor? her sire is supposed to be a dun, every photo I've ever seen of him makes him look dark, almost black and she's dark enough that it's not possible to see any dorsal strip on her, however, this time of year you can see a difference between the body color and leg color, but her head stays very black. I think it's time to do some testing.
 

Kris Moos
Breeding Stock
Username: Kris

Post Number: 825
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, August 07, 2006 - 02:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

no there is not a test for dun as of now. She was obviously a dun (has all the markings), but because she is darker in the face we wondered if she was grulla,(buckskin is bay based, grullo is black based) I wanted to register her properly, so i tested to be sure. Also i wanted to be sure it was a cream gene affecting her color, not roaning. She is Aa,Cc (one cream and one agouti whick makes her genetically a buckskin, but she has dun factor so she is a buckskin dun or "dunskin" she is registered "dun who carries and expresses the roan gene" according to AQHA)
here she is [IMG]http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/krismoos/101_6981.jpg[/IMG]
the wierdest thing about her is her legs which as a bay should be black are not, they are red...WIERD!!!
I think it took about 2 weeks to get the results emailed to me from pet dna, and another week to get the written papers to send to the registry.
may be interesting to have her tested, like you said for breeding purposes. See by testing precious we were able to conclude the stallion who is registered dun carries a cream gene, becaiuse i know the mare did not, she was a bay roan.
now i know because she is cream to not breed to another cream horse unless i want a perlino, cremello, dunolino or whatever else could result from 2 creams! (they are neat, but i wouldnt want to own one).
so consider it. you can go online to petdnaservices (i think) and prices are listed as well as test they do, other wise uc davis has a site too.
 

E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Evie

Post Number: 546
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 11:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kris- I'll check out the site, I'm the same with Avery, I don't really want a cremella but I also would reconsider selling her if I knew she carried the creme gene and had chance of throwing colored foals for me.
 

E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Evie

Post Number: 547
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 11:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kris- I'll check out the site, I'm the same with Avery, I don't really want a cremella but I also would reconsider selling her if I knew she carried the creme gene and had chance of throwing colored foals for me.
Your filly is very nice, I had a gray mare that looked very similar to her, out of a dun stallion. She's pretty well white now though. My dun filly is keeping me guessing, I've got to get the camera out and take some more photos of her, she's going gray, but certainly in an odd manner. Her legs are almost salt and pepper and her black ear tips are now nearly white.. with her being yellow dun based in color, she's pretty unique looking. There are also white hairs in her face, but her face is darker than her body coat so I'd bet she took the roan genetics from her mother as well. Her foal in 08 will be a wild card color wise...lol.
 

Susan Lea
Weanling
Username: Brandysgrandma

Post Number: 32
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2006 - 09:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kris, I've seen pictures of buckskins that look just like your filly except for her dorsal stripe, of course. My buckskin filly's body color has darkened as she shed out, but her legs and mane/tail look more brown than black now. She bleaches, just like her black mom who now looks grulla!

Those of you who like color, for some good pictures of different-looking buckskins, plus champagnes, cremellos, perlinos & palominos, check out this website. Be warned, though, that it will break your heart because most of the pictures are testimonials to all the horses they lost in Katrina. I wouldn't even tell you to look it up because it's so sad, but maybe it's good for us to remember that some people are still recovering a whole year later and to think some good thoughts for them--as well as to count our blessings!

http://www.colorsofthewind.org/
 

Kris Moos
Breeding Stock
Username: Kris

Post Number: 830
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 10:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

YEAH ALOT OF PEOPLE THINK PRECIOUS IS GRAY, I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO THEM SHE IS A DUN WITH A CREAM GENE, WITH NO GRAY IN HER LINES FOR ABOUT 3 GENERATIONS! SUSAN, HER DORSAL AND MANEFADES IN THE SUN, BUT SHE HAS BEEN THIS SAME COLOR SINCE SHE SHEDDED HER FOAL COAT. I TALKED WITH A LADY FROM GRULLA BLUE(THEY BREED AND RAISE DUNS, GRULLAS AND BLUE ROANS)(CHECK OUT HER SITE, TYPE IN GRULLABLUE.COM). ANYWAY SHE THOUGHT PRECIOUS WOULD GET DARKER LAST WINTER..NOPE WHITE AS CAN BE, ADN THIS SPRING TOO...JUST WIERD...HER LEGS ARENT BLACK EVER!!!NEVER WERE, ALWAYS A RED COLOR, EVEN RIGHT AWAY IN HTE SPRING WHEN SHE SHEDS...RED! (A SHIMERY DARK CHESTNUT COLOR)BUT I LOVE HER SHE IS SO UNIQUE, AND SWEET, AND SMART...AS OF NOW I WOULDNT SELL OR TRADE HER FOR ANYTHING!!!! SHE IS AL OST 15 HANDS NOW AT 16 MONTHS OLD...LOVE HER! SAME SIRE AS MY QUARAB JERICHO...AND HES AS SWEET AS CAN BE TOO...EXCEPT FOR HIS STUDLYNESS ALREADY!
I LOOKED AT THAT SITE, VERY NICE LOOKING HORSES, BUILD WISE, BUT I AM NOT A BIG FAN OF THE DOUBLE DILUTE COLORS!!!
EV- LOOK INTO TESTING HER...THEN YOU WONT SELL HER AND FIND OUT A YEAR OR SO LATER THAT SHE IS THROWING PALOMINOS AND BUCKSKINS...:-).
 

E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Evie

Post Number: 549
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 11:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kris- that's exactly what I'm going to do, I rode her again last night, she's improving, she'll never be Sage, but maybe she'll grow on me in time. If she were proven to be a color producer, that would just up the ante for me to hold on to her a while longer.
I found a dun filly I'm thinking about purchasing, I know, I'm crazy. She's out in Co and we own a 1/2 brother to her, we'll see. I'm also going to a sale this weekend with hubby, they have 4 or 5 grulla fillies in the sale.. depending on what they look like, I MIGHT be tempted, however, I'm not all that impressed with their pedigrees so they'll have to look REALLY good for it to be a concern.
 

Kris Moos
Breeding Stock
Username: Kris

Post Number: 835
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, August 09, 2006 - 03:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WELL THERE YOU GO...MAYBE YOU JUST NEED TO REFRESH YOUR HERD TO RENEW YOUR INTEREST! I HOPE AVERY TURNS OUT TO HAVE A CREAM GENE AND GROWS ON YOU! :-)
WHAT ABOUT THE PEDIGREE DONT YOU LIKE? A NAME/BLOODLINE, OR WHAT THE HORSE IS BRED FOR???
 

E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Evie

Post Number: 552
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 11:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kris- Avery's a daughter of Hackenberry Star out of a mare that's a daughter of Trouble Steel Bar, they just old foundation bred horses, she's a beauty, but no horses up close in her pedigree have done anything to win points or money. I did call to find out if Sage's sire had any foals that they were going to sell, they had only one! (and it's a colt so that's out) I also discovered that he is a 100% dun and grullo producer but he's 22 years old! I'm hoping he'll be able to breed next spring and maybe I'll cross Avery on him next year.. maybe. I also spotted a filly in Co I rather like, she's on www.horizonquarterhorses.com she's a weanling at the bottom of the horses for sale page under the mares. Take a look and let me know what you think of her, her dam's name is Dee Lite somethign or other.
 

Kris Moos
Breeding Stock
Username: Kris

Post Number: 837
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, August 10, 2006 - 03:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

EV- WOW!!!
she is cute! reminds me of cisco!!!!
you should cross her(avery) with that stallion next spring...that would be neat, bring crossing avery blood with sage...sounds good!
so will you be making a purchase soon??? (cute lil filly?)
are you interested in a dark chocolate palomino that is close to 100% foundation bred? I actually think she may be 100% now that i think about it, she is a beauty!!! She has a big ol butt, and was bred to be a bout 14.3 to 15.1 hands. The guy i took my mare i sold to be bred has her as well as several others.
I think he said hed want 5000 for her. She is out of a palomino and a black bay (the one i asked about who has thrown black babies when bred to pals and has a palomino as a stallion) She is out of a 50% two eyed jack stallion. and the mare has two eyed jack as well. not sure what lines youre looking for...but a thought!
if you want to see the web page, the stallion watch gold bert is grandsire on dams side, and djs jacks son is sire.
http://www.deer-creek-ranch.bigstep.com/
 

Susan Lea
Weanling
Username: Brandysgrandma

Post Number: 33
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 11:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just found this site last night. It seems many of you have QHs, paints, etc. and this is a TWH, but it's pretty neat genetically--he can only sire buckskins or perlinos. As long as you had any solid, non-dilute mare you would get a buckskin from him. I suppose that a homozygous tobiano mare would get a buckskin paint. Scroll down to the picture of the foal to see what I'm talking about. Imagine knowing 100 percent what color you were going to get!

Tennessee Walking Horse, Rise And Shine Walkers

http://www.riseandshinewalkers.com/

For some reason it's not working as a clickable link, so I guess you have to copy and paste if you're interested.
 

Kris Moos
Breeding Stock
Username: Kris

Post Number: 839
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 11:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

EV- heres the lines of the chocolate palomino. they are trying to reduce their herd so they are selling her for 2500.00 now!!!! if i had the $ id do it!!! WOW!!! Two D Two
Two Eyed Jack
Triangle Tookie
Jacks Banjo
Two Eyed Jack
Jacks Tune
Little Music
Sire:DJS Jack Son
Two Eyed Jack
Oil Dot Jack
Grace Croton
Daves Jackie Two
Mr Poco Jo
Poco Sparkette
Paula Sparky

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Watch Joe Jack
Watch Tyree Two
Ima Tyree
Watch Gold Bert
Strawberry Jack
Berta Brown Eyes
My Pretty Baby
Dam:Zippys Gold Baby
Zan Parr Bar
Zans Ramblin Man
Lady's baby Bee
Zans Zippy Skips
Ready Duster
Skips Dusty Scoot
Tina Skip
 

E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Evie

Post Number: 554
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Friday, August 11, 2006 - 11:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kris- Charles bought a stud colt from that site yesterday, he's not pictured on there, but is a full brother to his gelding that we bought 6 years ago. He is also a dun and half brother to that filly I told you about. I guess we'll be going out in October to pick him up when he's weaned. I'm still debating on the filly, we've bought three horses from those folks now, nice people and nice horses. ( always stud colts though) What I'm considering is still selling off most of what I have, including the yearlings next spring once they are riding and then getting one good mare to keep. I'll hold on to Avery at least until spring to see her foal and then decide what to do about her, she may end up being the 2nd horse I decide to hold on to..we'll see. ( could it be I've changed my mind about selling off ALL my horse ) Decisions, Decisions!!!!



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