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Message |
    
Amanda Gilbert
Yearling
Username: Amanda
Post Number: 89
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 11:13 am: | 
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A friend of mine asked me to post this here. She bred a bay standeredbred mare to a strawberry roan work horse and is wondering what she might get for color in the foal. thanks in advance |
E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Evie
Post Number: 520
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 11:27 am: |
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Amanda- I'm not an expert at this but my thoughts are a bay, sorrel, bay roan, or strawberry roan. Hope she has a pretty one !
Ev |
Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy
Post Number: 191
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 12:52 pm: |
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You could also get black and blue roan. |
E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Evie
Post Number: 521
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 11:17 am: |
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Cathy- where would the black come from ?? with both sire and dam being red based, I didn't think that would be possible. |
Susan Lea
Weanling
Username: Brandysgrandma
Post Number: 25
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 21, 2006 - 02:12 pm: |
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The bay standardbred mare is a black-based horse, not red. A bay is genetically a black horse that has an agouti gene; the agouti gene confines the black to the legs, mane, tail, ear tips, etc. so the rest of the horse is brown. So if the mare throws the black gene without the agouti you could get a black foal; if the foal gets the roan gene from the sire it could be a blue roan. |
Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy
Post Number: 192
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 12:24 am: |
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Susan thanks for answering.  I have been out of town till now.
I had this very conversation at a horse show this weekend. |
E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Evie
Post Number: 524
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 11:27 am: |
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Susan- thanks for enlightening me on the Agouti aspect of things, I'm starting to learn how these color genetics work, but I still have a long way to go and the agouti gene is something I was still pretty cloudy on understanding. Isn't it pretty dominant once it's there? Also, how likely is the roan gene to be passed on? I have a bay roan filly that is bred to our palomino stallion who also has some roan traits (and he's out of a red roan stud) I'm wondering what my odds of roaning will be on that colt and hoping to get something with the creme gene as well! |
Megan A Brown
Breeding Stock
Username: Fabmeg
Post Number: 177
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 12:43 pm: |
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It depends on the genetics of the filly. There is some argument about the genetics of the roan gene, whether or not lethal roan exists, exc. But if both the mare and stud have roan characteristics and we assume they are heterozygous they each have a 50% chance of contributing roan to the colt. It gives you a 50% chance of getting a heterozygous roan colt, a 25% chance of getting a solid colt, and a 25% chance of getting a homozygous roan horse. Hetero and homozygous roan horses look the same. In studies they have done, the numbers historically haven’t worked out to these percentages so some people think that homozygous roan are miscarried, but they also didn't have a huge amount of data. Until they have a test for the roan gene, I reserve judgment on the exact inheritance for the roan gene. You have a 50% chance of getting the creamer gene and a 50% chance of getting the Agouti gene. IF your mare is out of a black based mare buy a black based stud, she could be homozygous for the black characteristic, so you would only get bay, black, Smokey black or buckskin under the roan. If she is heterozygous for black she could pass on the Agouti gene but no black gene for it to act upon, so you would get a red roan or palomino that could through bays or buckskins breed to a black horse. |
E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Evie
Post Number: 526
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 01:21 pm: |
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The filly is out of a black stud and a red roan mare, that much I know. the stud is out of a buckskin mare and a red roan stallion. I guess I'll know in April what I get, or at least have a better idea, it sounds like there are a lot of possibilities! So long as it's not bay or sorrel, I'll be thrilled. (especially if it's a filly) |
Megan A Brown
Breeding Stock
Username: Fabmeg
Post Number: 179
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 01:28 pm: |
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So the mare has one red gene and one black, The stud has two red genes. You have a 25% chance of getting a red base and a 75% chance of getting a black based. You have a 50% chace of having the Agouti gene. A 50% chance of getting creamer. And a 75% to a 50% chance of getting roan. So Sorrel and Bay are still possible, But you could sure get some fun colors out of that cross. |
Sandy D
Breeding Stock
Username: Sbr_appaloosas
Post Number: 228
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 02:03 pm: |
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Hey Megan,
I think you got that backwards... it should be 25% chance of getting black based and 75% chance of getting red based. |
Susan Lea
Weanling
Username: Brandysgrandma
Post Number: 26
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, July 24, 2006 - 06:19 pm: |
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Evie, to answer your question about how dominant the agouti gene is (since people who know more about it than I do already answered for the roan gene!)--if the agouti gene is passed on, it will definitely be expressed IF it is passed on with a black gene. In other words, if one parent has no agouti gene and one parent has one, your foal has a 25 percent chance of getting it. If one parent passes on a black gene and one passes on a red gene, that foal will be black-based since black is dominant over red. However, the agouti gene will ALWAYS act on the black, so you would get a bay or a buckskin (if there's also a cream gene) or grulla or blue roan, depending on dun or roan genes. If both parents pass on red genes, your foal would still CARRY the agouti gene it got, but it would not be expressed because there's no black for it to act on.
That's why, for example, the cremello sire of my filly was sure to give her an agouti gene because he is homozygous for it. So you don't see it, but it's there. And that's why she's a buckskin because he also gave her one of his two cream genes, and her black dam made her black, so the agouti expressed itself on the black. If you know the genetic makeup of your parents, you can know better your odds for a certain color. I knew my filly would either be palomino or buckskin because the sire was homozygous for both agouti and cream. The only thing that was up in the air was whether my mare would throw her red gene or her black gene.
Hope that helps, rather than confusing the issue!  |
Megan A Brown
Breeding Stock
Username: Fabmeg
Post Number: 183
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 12:24 pm: |
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Actually I was wrong it ends up 50% 50%. Rr crosed with rr gives 2 Rr and 2 rr so that is 50% black based and 50% red. For some reason when I was doing the math I was thinking they were both Rr wich would give the 75% and 25%
(Message edited by FABmeg on July 25, 2006) |
E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Evie
Post Number: 527
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 03:33 pm: |
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Well I'll let you ladies know what I get when April rolls around ! it sounds like there are a lot of possiblities! Thanks for the help. Ev |
Monika Parrish
Neonate
Username: Angusvalleystables
Post Number: 1
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 26, 2006 - 10:01 pm: |
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I want to breed my black and white overo mare to a black fresian. She is LN for the lethal white gene, so I need to breed her to a NN gene to remove any chance of a lethal white foal. Are Fresians only NN since they have to be black to be a registered Fresian? |
Susan Lea
Weanling
Username: Brandysgrandma
Post Number: 28
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 06:20 pm: |
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She could still pass on her lethal white gene, producing another LN foal. Do you really want to do that? The only way to keep it from being passed on is to not breed horses that carry it. |
Heather Kutyba
Breeding Stock
Username: Heatherck11
Post Number: 284
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 27, 2006 - 11:02 pm: |
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Monika,
I can't imagine that Friesians be at risk for the LW. HOWEVER, if you do settle on a specific Fresian, speak to the owner/farm about your concerns. They may be willing to do the test...you may have to pay for it...but it is always worth asking.
Good for you, knowing your mares LW status. While she may still pass a gene, if she is not bred to a L+ there is a 0% chance of a LW foal resulting. |
E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Evie
Post Number: 530
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 11:38 am: |
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LW is another factor that I don't have a good grasp on, because we raise QH's and I was under the impresion that LW was a problem generally w/paints. I had a foal this year out of my black mare that had a "blind pouch" and it died shortly after birth, someone mentioned this was a LW issue, can someone shed some light on that??
Susan- the roan filly is out of a black sire and a red roan dam, I don't know what their genetic make up is however. The sire to the foal she carries it out of a red roan stud and a buckskin mare..don't know if that info helps but I thought I'd mention it just in case. |
Heather Kutyba
Breeding Stock
Username: Heatherck11
Post Number: 286
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 28, 2006 - 09:56 pm: |
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E, your foal had an "atresia" correct??
I'm aware that LW foals are seen with this condition, but it is also a birth defect that can occur randomly with no reason.
In humans, atresia is often seen in conjunction with birth/congenital heart defects. Human literature goes into great detail discussing this, and how it happens. All within the phase of the fetus when the organ systems are developing...and for some reason something goes awry.
Surgery to repair atresia in newborn infants is highly successful (a friends baby had it).
Dunno if that helps or not. |
Susan Lea
Weanling
Username: Brandysgrandma
Post Number: 29
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 05:35 pm: |
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Evie, I'm so sorry about the foal you lost. That is SO sad!
As far as your bay roan filly bred to the palomino--The sire is red-based (from his red roan sire) with a cream gene (from his buckskin dam), and he could carry a hidden agouti gene from her, too. (It wouldn't show on him since he's red-based.) Your bay roan filly is black-based from her black sire, got the roan gene from her red roan dam and probably a red gene also, and obviously got an agouti gene from her dam, too. (Because as a bay she definitely has the agouti & it can't be hidden in the black sire--it would have made him a bay, too.) You mentioned the sire has "roaning traits," but I'm not sure what that could mean. I'm not up so much on the roan gene, but my understanding is that if the foal gets it, it will be roan. In other words, it's like grey--can't be carried unseen. It's dominant.
So the palomino sire will contribute a red gene, has 50 percent chance of passing on his cream gene, may have an agouti gene to pass on, and could pass on a roan gene if you say he's roaning. The filly has one black gene and one red gene, so 50 percent chance of passing either, as well as 50 percent chance of passing on her roan and agouti genes. Looks like you have 75 percent chance of a red-based foal, probably 50 percent chance it will roan, with cream and agouti thrown into the mix. Any further perecentages totally defeat me! But I'd say you could get red roan, chestnut, bay (less likely), buckskin (less likely), palomino (less likely). If there's anyone who can correct my guesses, please do! It's a fascinating puzzle! |
E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Evie
Post Number: 533
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 01:51 pm: |
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Susan, by roaning traits on the stud I mean he has some patches where he is roan, but he doesn't appear the typical roan as in the head and legs are darker and the body is a good bit lighter due to the amount of white. ( he has a spot on his upper leg which I thought was actually a scar at first but it's not ) his summer coat shows more white througout it than his winter coat does.. so I'm guessin the roan gene as there is no gray in his pedigree anywhere. I have a few months to wait to see what this match produces.
I have another interestingly bred filly too, she's out of a dun roan mare and our gray stud, she was born dun but is going gray. She may well have the roan trait too but it COULD be masked by the gray. I'll breed her to a chestnut next spring, she could produce, dun, roan or gray would be my guess, whatever color it is, if it's anything but RED she'll get credit, there's no color on the sire's side. |
Shirley Fuller
Neonate
Username: Oakeyroad
Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 01:20 pm: |
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I am knew to this site. I have a Dun Mare that was bred to a sorrel stud, I got a Bay. What could I bred her to get a Buckskin or another Dun. |
E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Evie
Post Number: 626
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, October 26, 2006 - 11:17 am: |
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Shirley- with my limited knowledge, I'd say for another dun you'd want a grulla or dun cross, for a buckskin, you need a palomino or buckskin cross. |
