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Paint lovers question tobiano or tovero foal?

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » Paint lovers question tobiano or tovero foal? « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

melissa
Breeding Stock
Username: Mbgirl

Post Number: 279
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 10:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello,
I was told by some people that my new filly Amber is a tobiano and others said tovero. I need to know so I can put it on the paper work.People told me because she has one blue eye it makes her a tovero and not a tobiano. I was told tobiano can't be register with a blue eye, it must be register overo or tobiano on the APHA. see her on the site
www.photobucket.com/albums/e329/MBhorses/MBAnnie2006filly
THANKS FOR YOUR HELP.
MELISSA
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 188
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, July 01, 2006 - 10:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa blue eyes are characteristics of frame and splash. She is very pretty, and I would say she is tovero.
 

Jet
Nursing Foal
Username: Jet

Post Number: 16
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 04:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

While she may be a tovero genetically, APHA registers horses based on phenotype (looks) alone. By their standards, she is a tobiano. They will allow you to register her as a tobiano, as I have had a lot of blue eyed horses that were registered as tobianos. (I have one out in my pasture right now.)

Look up the APHA's color patterns on thier site and you'll see what they consider tobiano and tovero. They consider toveros to have more white on the face than your filly does.

APHA would probably let you register her as a Tovero or Tobiano truthfully. I don't put much stock into what they say anyway. There's plenty of "Tobianos" out there that are really Toveros and there's plenty of "Solids" out there that are really minimally marked Overos.

Good luck!
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 189
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 10:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jet thats for that info. I am not a paint breeder. I had heard they were behind the time as far as color genetics go, but didn't know how far. :-)
I am suprised as it is actually a color breed that they are not staying up with research.
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 654
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 12:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa,
I would say toby for your filly, but would send the papers in as tovero and let them make the judgement call. That is what I have done with a filly of mine that is out of a toby mare and overo sire, yet my filly is toby pattern with a blue eye which is only considered a secondary characteristic according to APHA. If she has a overo parent she can certianally through the gene herself with no questions asked.

APHA is still learning just like the rest of us. They are a gentic breed, just like AQHA, a color breed is for color only, like pinto, it matters not what breed they are morgan, walking horse, paint or qh. APHA is breed only with color being a benifit. There are many open shows that don't allow registered paints to show in a color class because they are paints. Color must be registered to a color registry. Palamino, buckskin are examples of "color" registries as well as "pinto" registry. If just registered to paint(paint is a breed registry) and not to pinto then no color class. We have fought it before , sometimes win sometimes loose!

someday apha will require all to be tested for what kind of color gene they carry so that they can be properly marked with the correct color pattern name that they can throw. Right now they go by what color pattern the horse is and not what they can throw. EX. if a horse is out of a toby and overo yet shows visually only a toby pattern, it gets marked toby, but still can throw a overo gene because it is out of a overo sire. But again visually is a toby by coat pattern. Being one thing yet carrying a gene to throw another.

Just for conversation piece , lets say a man for example can throw either a gene to make a male baby or a female baby, but they themselves are considered a man because that is what they are, you would not lable a man a female, just because he can throw a female baby. Like wise you would not lable a toby a tovero just because they can throw overo gene. It is just a gene that can be thrown to influence a color pattern.

Kim
 

melissa
Breeding Stock
Username: Mbgirl

Post Number: 282
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 01:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello,
Thank you all for the inputs on the tobiano and tovero. I would like to know if anyone as sites to list for me that would help as well. This is our first foal with a blue eye. Do you think in the future her foals will have the blue eye?
thanks MELISSA
 

melissa
Breeding Stock
Username: Mbgirl

Post Number: 283
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 01:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello again,
Could you all put pictures of your foals that look like tobiano, overo and tovero patterns on this site foals or horses, so we can see the different.We are looking to breeding more paints in the future and want to know as much as possible. I also wanted to know if you can register a paint mare, gelding or stud that has no papers. We are looking at a mare with no paper, the mare may have had papers at one time, but not now. I was told you might can register the mare, gelding or stud. If we breed a non register mare to our register stud could the foal get register some how? Also if the paint mare is breed to a quarter stud who is register can the foal be half register?
THANKS AGAIN,
MELISSA
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 655
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 02:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa,
Under most situations, You must have registered paint,qh, or tb already. There was at one point in time that there were unregistered stock and a registered parent that then could be a registered foal. For the most part that is not true anymore inside the APHA. The babies must come from at least one apha(again there are some that have fallen into a extenduating situation) and a tb or qh . The color breeds such as pinto will allow a unregistered horse into the association under hardship because they meet color requirments. A registered paint bred to a registered qh would = a registered paint as long as breeding reports and such required paperwork were filed and dues paid.

The non registered paint to qh could get a registered pinto breed and nothing more. NO registered aqha or apha.



The mare that once had papers but can't be located for what reason would be considered a grade horse unless you were able to come up with ownership information and get required transfers signed. You can get copies of papers for a fee from the associations. I think its like 25.00 bucks. So if you know the owner and registered name and such.

Don't think that there is anymore double registered horses, from aqha and apha. Again there were certian clauses in the associations at one time, but those have been eliminated for the most part now. Had to do with the associations and how they reconized certian colors and a excess of white in the qh, which is now allowed but noted on the qh papers that it is a undesirable trait.

We find that if we have a blue eye, we are likely to get a blue eye. :-) We like it!

HOpe that answered your questions!
Ask more !
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 656
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 02:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ps, apha has a color poster with pattern info on it that you can get from them (free i know if you are a member!) And in their rule book they have pattern info too.
Kim
 

Emily West
Nursing Foal
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 12
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 03:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are some links to our Paint horses. I hope they work.


Sorrel Frame Overo.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a97/pnhpaintlover/Scan0004.jpg

Black Tobiano, Left side.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a97/pnhpaintlover/kds4colt.jpg

Black Tobiano, right side.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a97/pnhpaintlover/kds5colt.jpg

Sorrel Tobiano.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a97/pnhpaintlover/Gracie00.jpg

Sorrel Tobiano. You can't see it in this picture but he has a white rump.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a97/pnhpaintlover/Scanjake.jpg
 

Michelle Lyons
Neonate
Username: Chelle

Post Number: 2
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 10:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have paints also here is what I have found out. If you have a grade mare with color or a gelding with color then they may be reg with the pinto horse. If you have a stud you must have parents names for their bloodlines. I have and three unregestered studs (two are getting reg.) but there is one that can not be reg anywhere because we don't know the reg name of his dam.
I am posting pics so you can see
Tuff is getting reg red roan overo
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f328/htreasures01/65e3ff40.jpg

Prince is a breeding stock(No white body markings)
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f328/htreasures01/FH000010.jpg

And Bug is a black sabino overo (can't reg)
http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f328/htreasures01/FH000014.jpg



(Message edited by chelle on July 07, 2006)
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 661
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 10:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would venture to say that your black overo has some frame genes in him as well as the sabino gene, I don't know if thats what you meant by calling him "sabino overo"
 

Michelle Lyons
Neonate
Username: Chelle

Post Number: 3
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Friday, July 07, 2006 - 11:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yes this is exactly what I was saying thanks for making it understood
 

Emily West
Nursing Foal
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 14
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 11:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, Chelle! Funny running into you here. I am Paintlover from the SC forum. I was wondering if anyone one from there ever stopped by this forum.
 

melissa
Breeding Stock
Username: Mbgirl

Post Number: 285
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, July 08, 2006 - 10:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello,
To all those who guess my filly Amber was a tobiano guess right. I email pictures to APHA they said she is consider a tobiano.So to let all you know that the APHA register this filly as a tobino paint. The APHA also said that a tobiano can have one blue eye or both blue eyes and still be a tobiano register horse.They told me that they look at the over all pattern of the colors as well.
If my mare would have had more white on her face or behind the color around the ears, she would have might been consider tovero. I love all paints, so it don't matter to me. I just think the tovero are a few less then the others paint pattern.The APHA also told me to look at their site to help me pick the right one, but I have since paints like mind register has a tovero.
thanks everyone and keep sending those pictures of your paints.
MELISSA
 

Hannah Elizabeth Lough
Weanling
Username: 20hannah10

Post Number: 23
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Sunday, October 15, 2006 - 11:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi i hope some one can help. Does anyone know the chances of having a lethal baby if two overos are bred together?
I thought the chances were high but then i found a website that breeds black and white overos together every time and the stallion DO carry the gene.
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 211
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Sunday, October 15, 2006 - 12:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If both parents are carriers (and if they are frame they are) you have a 25% chance of LW.

(Message edited by Cathy on October 15, 2006)
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 685
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 12:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, just wanted to let everyone know that the apha baby that i sent papers in on, she was what i would have considered tovero but thought that APHA would send back as toby , they went with tovero on her. :-) The mare has been bred several times to the same stallion= many tovero babys and a toby and a overo. She has the patteron of a toby but blue eyes. I think that apha looked at the possibilities that she should carry the overo gene. Very interesting as I expected the verdict to come back toby only.

I would also like to address the LW chance. Stastatically the chances are 25 % but in most situations that is not the fact. I had a overo stallion bred and produced about 50 foals and only one lw baby. It is much lower under most situations than 25 % . You can come across you pairs that have a much higher chance as well. Ones that will produce a lw everytime thier bred.

Everyone must remember that if you are worried you must test all qh, tb and paints for the gene. It is found in all breeds and color combonations. You must not see a overo pattern to carry the lw gene. They could be a solid colored horse and produce a lw foal.
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 212
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, October 23, 2006 - 11:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kim If your stallion produced a LW foal he is a carrier. That does not mean 25% of his foals will be LW in any given situation. It means that each match with a LW carrier has a 25% chance of being LW. He could have 50 foals without passing the gene. He could also have 50 foals and pass it to every one.

There are 3 patterns called overo. Splash,sabino, and frame. Splash and frame are the carriers of blue eyes, so tovero is most deffinatly correct.
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 686
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 10:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cathy,
I am very aware that my stallion was a carrier.
I am very aware of the stats. Most people think that this means thier chance would be a 25%, which is incorrect.

I too am aware of all the color patterns. There was someone here on this post that got a toby color pattern by apha even with a blue eye. This is normally not a main marker, just a secondary. By my foals pattern on her body she is a toby, but she has a blue eye. APHA went tovero as I had marked which would not have been the case a few years ago. I actually have a baby out of the same cross that is marked the same way (only different base cost color) and they refused to mark her a tovero, they went with toby. APHA is looking farther than just the coat pattern and relizing that these foals should be marked as a cross .

Kim
 

Dona Neargarder
Neonate
Username: Kickapoominis

Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 08:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is a reason for "Statistics". Doesn't mean that is what will necessarily happen for each person. But, it gives one a good "idea" of what their chances are. Yes...a person could breed two LWO + horses together year after year, and never get a LW foal. BUT...someone else could breed two LWO+ horses together year after year & get LOTS of LW foals! Statistics are your best bet to give you the "odds" of having Lethal White foals if you breed two LWO+ horses together.

I, for the life of me, can't understand why any responsible breeder would even consider breeding two LWO+ horses together & take that chance. Oh, I've heard some breeders say they do it because it gives them a higher percentage of "Frame" overo foals....but that is a mis-conception. Breeding two LWO+ horses together will give you no higher "percentage" of Frame foals than breeding a LWO+ horse to a solid LWO- horse.

I have bred a Tovero (Frame/Sabino/Tobiano) stallion to my Solid, Tobiano & Tovero mares (non are carrying the LWO gene)and have gotten a very high percentage of FRAME foals, as well as very colorful Tovero babies.

This is a Bay Frame/Sabino colt out of a bay Tobiano mare.

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/kickapoo/Apache/ApacheGrandChampCropped.j pg[/IMG]

And here is a full sister...a Bay Frame/Sabino.

Summer coat...
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/kickapoo/Lacy/LacyLiberty1Cropped.jpg[/IMG]

Winter coat...
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/kickapoo/Lacy/LacySnowA.jpg[/IMG]

This is a BlackBay Frame/Sabino filly out of a solid BlackBay Roan mare.
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/kickapoo/MayZ/MayZYearlingStallPhoto.jpg[/IMG]

And this is a full brother...also a BlackBay Frame/Sabino (he is very dark under that red baby hair)
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/kickapoo/Monty/MontyQueenie1WkPasture1Cro pped-1.jpg[/IMG]

And here are some of the TOVEROS by the same stallion. Most of these also test positive for LWO (frame)....but the frame patterns are obscured, or sometimes obliterated completely, because of the other multiple pinto patterns involved.

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/kickapoo/Feather/FeatherBathDona10001.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/kickapoo/Ivy/IvyBathLeft1.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/kickapoo/MissyMFeatherAugPasture10001.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/kickapoo/MoJo2004WorldShow2.jpg[/IMG]

Of course, in any Overo breeding program, you'll get a few solids. Here are a couple of mine who tested positive for LWO as well. Of course, they only "look" solid. IMO, Any horse displaying any true white markings (pink skin) are gentic pintos.
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/kickapoo/MagicMoonEqAffaire1a.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/kickapoo/PeekClippedTrotFront.jpg[/IMG]



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