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Genetics as it relates to color

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » Genetics as it relates to color « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

debrah
Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2001 - 05:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Curiosity has the best of me - while I don't want to breed specifically for color it is in the bloodlines I've chosen. Would appreciate any info on basic equine genetics as it applies to color.
 

Jos
Posted on Tuesday, January 02, 2001 - 06:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colour genetics is a very complex subject that has no basic set of rules associated with it. I would suggest that if you would like more information you get hold of a book on the subject such as Equine Color Genetics by Philip Sponenberg.

Sorry not to be of more help!
 

kara fenlon (152.163.201.176)
Posted on Thursday, May 23, 2002 - 06:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi,
I was told that two roans cannot produce a foal. Is this true?
 

Colleen Smith (65.80.145.86)
Posted on Friday, May 24, 2002 - 03:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, that is not true. IF two roans are bred together, they have approximately a 75% chance of producing roan in their foal.
 

Colleen Smith (65.80.145.86)
Posted on Friday, May 24, 2002 - 03:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Debra, If you have specific questions, I'd be happy to try to answer them. You may email me at colleen@putnamlumber.com if you like.
 

Amanda (206.150.119.161)
Posted on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 - 11:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, that depends on who you listen to. It is assumed knowledge, though never proven that I know of, that a homozygous state for roan in a fetus will cause the mare to abort at 90 days. So, if you breed two roans, you have a 25% chance for that homozygous roan. However, some people are looking into the idea that the roan gene is linked to a base coat color, and if a horse has, let's say, a black gene with a linked roan gene, and a red gene linked to a roan gene, the horse will be homozygous and survive, but the roan genes can't be lnked to the same base coat color. There is a stallion out there, QH I believe, that has produced 100% roan offspring to date.

However, if the assumption holds true that homozygous roan is fatal, then you have a 25% chance of loosing the foal, but if you get a live foal, the odds change to a 66% chance for roan and 33% chance for non roan if the amre carries to term.

But, you CAN get a roan foal from two roan horses. I am currently breeding my two true blue roans. We'll see what happens.
 

Sheila Archer (161.184.192.202)
Posted on Tuesday, June 25, 2002 - 04:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wanted to respond to the question, "What is the difference between grey and pure white", and am doing it here because I wasn't able to get in to the right page (malfunction?). Greying is caused by a specific dominant gene (G) that makes a horse's coat gradually change from base coat colour with a few white hairs interspersed to a white or nearly all-white coat. Greying takes years, and some horses never get totally white. Some greys have specks of base colour called "flea bitten", and many show dapples mid-way through the greying process.

A horse that is white because it inherited W, the gene for white, is born white and stays that way. It has pink skin, whereas a grey has black skin, though this may mottle later in life. I should add that the presence of the grey gene is reported to shorten the expected lifespan of a horse by about 6 years, due to tumor growth. Pigment that is not able to go up into the coat hairs gathers in melanomas, usually on the head and around the tail, but also along the digestive tract. These may cause colic and/or death for "unknown" reasons, unless and autopsy is performed.
 

Bill Stricklend (216.180.117.1)
Posted on Wednesday, July 03, 2002 - 12:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Debrah, You have a valid question, blood lines and color genetics are hand in hand, I have become very interested in color genetics and am presently collecting inforamation on the subject, the book on color genetics by Sponenberg is good and he has alot of other articles but back to your question, it has alot to do with the breed of horse you are interested in as to blood lines and color gentics.
 

ELizabeth Hardy (12.38.198.125)
Posted on Wednesday, July 31, 2002 - 10:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sheila I am not so sure I agree with your statement that the Grey gene will "shorten" a horses life span by six yrs due to the development of melanomas...

Grey is an premdominate color amongst arabian's and is highly common esp amongs the desertbred's

And yes while some grey arabs do get the tumors you mentioned they are not as common as one would think... My mare's line has a very strong HX of grey in her lines.. She is grey, her sire is grey, her Dam's sire is grey.. she has six lines to Nazeer who is grey . She is 6 yrs old and no signs of any tumors. Her sire is 9 yrs all white now and no hx of the tumors. Her Grandsire is deceased but also no Hx of the melanoma's. And to my knowledge there is no mention of Nazeer having problems with tumors.

She is pregnant to A stallion whose sire is grey and is in his teens No Tumor's or HX.

I can go on and on... If what you say were true would not the majority of grey horses have the tumors or develop them at somepoint in their lives?

SO rather than saying that all grey horses will live shorter lives because of the tumors would it not be better to say that they are at a slightly higher risk of developing the tumors than non grey horses?

I may be way off base... but I have had several grey hrses ( all Arabian) and none have had problems with tumors; my gelding lived to be in his late 20's and had no tumors at all.

Liz
 

Yve Ragsdale (146.7.18.145)
Posted on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 07:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would like to know the probabality of having a cremello offspring when breeding 2 palominos.This spring we purchased a QH palomino mare who was in foal to a palomino QH stud. (This was his first breeding year and he has produced 4 out of 5 palomino. I have only seen one of my mares previous offspring and she is a beautiful palomino.) This year after anxious waiting we were rewarded with a dark gold filly with excellent personality and conformation.
CAN ANY ONE TELL ME WHAT ARE THE CHANCES OF THAT HAPPENING AGAIN? What are the statistics on getting a cremello, not regesterable as QH. If they are fairly low I really like what that combination produced this time and might try again. Thanks, Yve
 

Pam (144.92.164.204)
Posted on Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 05:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The probability for cremello when breeding two palominos is 25%. A cremello has two dilution genes, each palomino has one. There is a 50% chance that each palomino will pass on the dilution gene. You have a 50% chance of palomino, and 25% chance of chestnut. Hope this helps!
 

Yve (146.7.18.105)
Posted on Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 08:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Pam, That is very helpful.
Yve
 

fostersfollies (67.201.149.76)
Posted on Sunday, November 17, 2002 - 07:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

along the same lines as above. I have breed my palomino, whos sire was a cremella and damn was a chestnut to a cremello in hopes of getting a cremello foal. What do you think my chances are for that?
Also, I bred my grey to a cremello too, what do you think will happen there?
 

Anonymous (130.189.68.118)
Posted on Wednesday, November 20, 2002 - 06:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

fostersfollies, you have a 50-50 chance of getting a cremello. Your Palomino has a chestnut and a cremello gene, the cremello has 2 cremelleos. If the palomino gives the chestnut gene, you will get a palomino, if the cremello gene is given, you will get a cremello...no chance of a chestnut here.
Grey could be tricky, although I would be interested to see the result. If the grey has a solid colored parent, you may get a dilute version of that color (for instance, if there was a chestnut solid parent, you may get a palomino), if the grey gene is given, I don't know what will happen. Good luck.
 

Susan Peterson (67.25.149.178)
Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 12:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi all--

What is the definition of a minimal tobiano? Can you get a minimal tobiano from solid parents?

Any info would be appreciated--this colt's color pattern has generated some interesting comments. I can see that we will probably have him DNA tested at some point!

Thanks!
 

fostersfollies (67.201.149.21)
Posted on Thursday, November 21, 2002 - 05:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The greys topline is grey back 3 generations. The bottom line is Black, sorrel, sorrel. You are right, it will be interesting to see what I get. I like grey and creme and palomino, so I will be happy with any. a dilution of black would get what though? This grey has black points.
As far as the minimal tobiano as mentioned above. I bred a black to a b/w tobiano last season, he had thrown, really lite up tobianos. My foal was solid black with a small snip on her nose just like her mom. She is beautiful, just shocked with the outcome. I bet the foal would throw a lot of color though with her genes, what do you think?
fostersfollies
 

Sandy (65.58.179.146)
Posted on Saturday, November 23, 2002 - 12:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, here is an interesting question:
I have a buckskin colt that is the product of a cremello sire and a chestnut dam.
Now with everything I have ever read, that combination should have produced a palomino. But he is definitely a buckskin. I guess my question is: If I use him for breeding purposes, which I intend to do, would he be used better for producing bucksins or palominos? I have a very cherry red mare that I plan on breeding him to in hopes of getting a palomino. And I also have a dark gray mare that I'd like to breed him to but I really don't know what I'd get out of that combination.
Any input is appreciated.
 

arablvr (130.36.61.238)
Posted on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 04:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The "Cremello" stallion was a "Perlino" stallion. It can be hard to tell the difference on the double dilutes. You would probably have a 50/50 chance of getting a dilute horse, and a 50/50 chance of getting a black based horse. In other words, crossing a buckskin on a chestnut mare you would have a chance for 25% buckskin, 25% palomino, 25% chestnut and 25% bay. Depending on how the genes fell that day.

If you breed a buckskin to a gray it depends on whether the gray is homozygous or not. If she is homozygous you would have a 100% chance of gray foals. If not, you would a 50% chance of gray foals. The base color would vary based on what the mare's base color is. What color was she when she was born? Also, what colors are her parents (obviously 1 is gray, but do you know what the base color was?)
 

Sandy (64.157.22.41)
Posted on Monday, November 25, 2002 - 05:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The dark gray mare is out of two dark gray parents. One a dapple gray, the other a gray pinto. This mare was definitely a gray pinto when she was born, and her gray has not changed to a lighter color at all and she is 8 years old.
She had always given birth to gray and white pintos when bred, except for this last time when she was bred to a solid chestnut, she threw a chestnut pinto. The same chestnut pinto that I want to breed the buckskin to. So I guess that may change things a bit also, considering the chestnut mare is out of a chesnut sire and gray dam.
You say the "cremello" stud would have to be perlino? Do the perlinos have blue eyes also? Because this stud had 2 blue eyes.
Anyway, that's the scoop. Thanks for any more insight you can give me on this whole dilution question.
 

arablvr (130.36.62.239)
Posted on Tuesday, November 26, 2002 - 03:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, perlino's have blue eyes also. They just carry the black points, but they are so faded, you can't tell. Basically the stallion has to carry the black gene, which a cremello can't.

The gray pinto mare only has 1 copy of the gray gene, and she must carry a chestnut gene also. As to the chestnut pinto, the color ratios will stay the same, she cannot produce gray if she isn't gray. Gray doesn't skip a generation. You will have a 50% chance of getting a pinto thrown on top of those other color choices.

With the gray pinto mare, you have a 50% chance of getting pinto (only 1 parent was pinto). You also have a 50% chance of getting a gray (the foal may start as one of the following colors, but may also turn gray). You also have approx. a 50% chance of Palomino or buckskin. I think.

My brain isn't working too good today, so there may be chances in there to get a black, but I don't remember how to figure that.
 

Sheila Archer (161.184.179.18)
Posted on Thursday, November 28, 2002 - 08:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

More on greys and pigment tumors: If you read my earlier statement, you will note that I say "it is reported", when I refer to the statistics on greys developing melanomas. These are not my numbers, rather they appear in several different scientific papers as well as some coat colour books. These stats were gathered from greys in all breeds. Though you have experienced no problems with your own Arabians, they are not old enough yet to show visible signs, since the tumors on the outer part of the body may not appear until at least 15 years of age. It is also entirely possible that Arabians have a greater resistance to the effect of the grey gene, since it has been in that breed's gene pool for a long time, and some geneticists theorize the mutation first appeared in that breed.
 

Janis (209.86.249.201)
Posted on Monday, December 02, 2002 - 11:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a question. I have a QH palomino mare who is pale in winter and gold in summer. I plan to breed this spring. Right now I am looking stallions over...my question is, I am torn between 3 stallions, all have the temperment, conformation, and attributes I am looking for, but can't decide on color. One is a perlino, one is a grulla, and one is a red dun. Could someone out there tell me the color probability of the foal when breeding to each. Thank you.
 

kat (209.86.249.201)
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 12:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We have a buckskin mare who was bred to a bay and we got a wonderful colt last february. At first, we thought he was a grulla, lovely silvery olive, then silver legs turned to black stockings, but the tail and main still have the two tones, and his barrel, rump, hips are still silver, but his neck and parts of his head are turning very dark (almost black)and he will turn a year in January. We call him a horse of a different color! Anyway, does anyone know what color this will probably be, we are going to breed again this year, but to a grulla stallion, we were told breeding to a grulla will produce either another buckskin or a grulla. We thought of breeding to a palomino, but would we get a dun? Thanks.
 

Jan (209.86.249.201)
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 12:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is it true that if I breed a palomino to another palomino, or an overo, that we have a very good chance of getting a lethal white? I have heard conflicting stories about this, yet really want to breed to a specific palomino stallion. Any information will be helpful.
 

Sheila Archer (161.184.192.238)
Posted on Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 11:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Jan! Someone has been giving you inaccurate information. At this point in time, the only documented way to get a lethal white foal is by breeding overo to overo. Though normal roan (Rn) and true white (W) are homozygous lethal, the fetus is not viable and is never carried to term. Breeding palomino to palomino will give you three different possible outcomes, none of which are lethal. You have a 50% chance of getting a palomino (Crcr), a 25% chance of getting a cremello (CrCr), and a 25% chance of getting a chestnut (crcr). The creme gene (Cr) is not associated with lethal defects when in homozygous state, but cremellos and perlinos have been observed to suffer some eye and ear problems related to lack of pigmentation, but these are not serious enough to be life-threatening.
 

Elizabeth James (128.193.255.50)
Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 03:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kat:

I'm guessing that your colt inherited the Creme gene from your buckskin mare and the black gene from the bay stallion, which would make him a smokey black.

If you breed your mare to a palomino you can either get a palomino, a buckskin, a cremello, or a bay. Here's how that works. In horses, we have what is called a creme gene. The cream gene is responsible for "dilutions" of color. For instance, if you have a bay with the creme gene, you will see a buckskin (like your mare). If you have a chestnut with a creme gene, you will see a palomino. A black with the creme gene is a smokey black (like I'm guessing your colt is). If you have two creme genes, you will see a cremello. The different colors of creme horses come from their base color (bay, black, chestnut). Sometimes the creme gene is called a modifier because it modifies the base color.

I don't have time to go into grullas right now, but hopefully will be back later.
 

Elizabeth James (128.193.255.50)
Posted on Wednesday, December 04, 2002 - 03:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm back. :)

To get a grulla, you need a different gene than the creme gene. You need the dun gene. The way for you to get a grulla is to breed your mare to either a grulla (which is a dun gene on a black base) or any other color of dun (red, yellow). If you breed your mare to a red (dun on chestnut) or yellow (dun on bay) dun you could get a horse that is a yellow or red dun.

Hope this helps. If you have more questions, feel free to email me.
 

Hidden Rock Ranch (63.15.244.22)
Posted on Wednesday, December 25, 2002 - 09:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan,

A working definition of a minimal tobiano is a tobiano that only has 4 white socks and a bit of white crossing the topline or the tail somewhere... There appears to be some 'restricting' genes that must influence how much white is shown on any pattern, working in combination with the environmental influences.

You should not ever have a tobiano 'appear' from two solid parents, particularly from solid parents with no stockings.

Of the minimal tobianos I have seen, it is very typical for them to have a small star or snip or NO markings on the head at all. some of them also had those 'spots in the stockings' you don't typically see with normal socks or overo socks.

I know there is a tobiano registered with APHA that purportedly had two QH parents. One would assume there was some sort of 'pedigree error' and either a mare switched foals or something else happened, but I doubt very much there is really a correct pedigree in that case.
 

Diane
Posted on Thursday, March 06, 2003 - 01:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Can anyone tell me what to cross my blue roan stallion (out of black sire and blue roan dam) to give me the best chance of a blue roan foal?
 

Liz : )
Posted on Saturday, March 08, 2003 - 01:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The best chance would be to breed him to a blue roan mare. I've heard rumors that if you have a homozygus roan foal, the mare will abort it, but I'm not sure how factual that is. The second best chance would be to breed him to a homozygus black mare- in that combo, I think that you could get either a black foal, a blue roan, or possibly a bay, depending on what exactly the mare is homozygus for. Hope that helps.
 

Diane
Posted on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 10:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, Liz. Blue roans are a rarity around these parts and I just sent for a magnificent blue from across country. I've bred many colors of QHs but this is my first blue--I want to get the best results possible. Homo. blk. was my first thought. Thanks again for your input.
 

Magnolia Acres
Posted on Monday, March 10, 2003 - 11:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The only way to have a dun or grulla foal is for one of the parents to be a dun or grulla. There is a web-site I found one time that goes into great detail about color genetics. A person who does this is called a theorogenologist. If you remember a punnett square from Biology it works the same for horses as it does people. A black gene (bay, buckskin, grey...) is dominant over a red gene (palamino, sorrel, chestnut...). Each parent has 2 color genes. The dominant color decided the base color. They donate one of these to the foal. Then the dominate of the 2 the foal receives determines it's base color. It can get very complicated. If you know the color of the grandparents and the great-grandparents you can usually get a very good indication of the color of the foal. I think I found the web-site by doing a search for equine color genetics. It was written by a university teacher I believe.
 

Jennifer
Posted on Tuesday, March 11, 2003 - 01:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If anyone could give me an idea why my coming 13 year old gelding is still quite black and has only been slowly dappling grey for the last few years. He was all black except grey fuzz in his ears when he was born. People always comment on how amazing it is that he has stayed black for so many years and then slowly is turning dapple grey. His father was a grey (almost white) and his mother was black. Does anyone know what causes the horse to take so long to finally turn dapple grey?
 

MAGNOLIA ACRES
Posted on Thursday, March 20, 2003 - 09:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It sounds like your horse is really black and did not inherit the graying gene. His gray you are seeing not may just be from getting older.
 

Melinda
Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 07:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sandy could you please discribe your Grey Pinto,I have a grey mare who has Flea bitten patches with dark skin and white patches (corser hair)on pink skin, what would you call this color combo?I have no idea on her parentage.Thanks
 

Sandy
Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 01:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melinda,
I don't know how to describe my grey Pinto. She is a very dark, gunmetal type grey. She really does not fit the definition of a true grey because she is not flea bitten or white at all. The skin under her dark grey is dark and where she is white her skin is pink. I refer to her as a grey only because of the fact that the color of the hair is a deep gunmetal grey. It isn't brown, it isn't red by any means and it isn't black. I guess you could almost call it charcoal. Both of her parents were this same exact color, with one being a solid dapple and the other a pinto. My mare has been bred to blacks and browns and always threw the same color of foals as she is, this charcoal grey pinto color. Until two years ago when I bred her to a solid chestnut, she threw a very bright red and white pinto. She is bred to this same stallion again and should foal in about 4 weeks, so we'll see what she has this time.
As for your mare, it sounds like she is a true grey. I believe flea bitten is always a grey. What color are the flea spots? I had an Arab whose papers stated he was a grey and he was flea bitten, but his flea spots looked chestnut to me. So I guess that would have made him a chestnut grey.
But as for dark skin and pink skin, if it is over the body, that would be either Paint, Pinto, or Appaloosa. Of course depending on the size of the pink patches and where they are located.
 

David
Posted From: 64.109.132.192
Posted on Friday, May 23, 2003 - 05:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am considering breeding a bay TB with a bay Hanoverian. Will the foal also be a bay or is there some chance of another color? I am breeding for bloodlines, not for color, but would prefer some color other than bay.
 

Sandy
Posted From: 67.31.170.187
Posted on Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 12:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

David,
You will probably get either bay, dark bay or brown. Every time I have ever bred bay horses to another horse of a dark color,(black or bay) I've always gotten bay, dark bay or brown.
I have a dark bay TB that was bred to a black last year and she threw a blood bay this year(Very pretty color by the way). And the first foal she had ever had out of this same black stud was a dark bay, almost black.
So, I'd say your chances of getting another bay are pretty good. Sorry.
 

Anonymous
Posted From: 204.169.23.246
Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 02:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was reading above and I am not sure if anyone has responded to a comment above, but Arabians cannot be white. Arabians are ALWAYS grey because of their origins. Arabian have black skin (even under white markings) to prevent their skin from burning.
 

Anonymous
Posted From: 158.252.241.162
Posted on Friday, September 12, 2003 - 08:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

regarding roaning. i had my bay overo produce a bright blue roan from a blue roan stallion. however the bay mare has dun and roaning in her bloodlines. also regarding roaning, be sure you are looking at roan and not sabino, sabino characteristics creating overo markings are more likely to throw another overo than solid and if it is a true sabino and only sabino ,it will test negative for the leathal white. if you were to test most cropout qh with the overo markings they would likely test sabino not overo. and you can not get tobiano markings in a cropout unless there is some mistake in the bloodline info.
 

Jenneffer
Posted From: 66.176.164.227
Posted on Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 07:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

VGL is offering two new horse coat color tests. They now offer Cream Dilution and Agouti (Bay/Black) as well as Red Factor and Lethal White Overo at UC Davis Genetic testing Lab!!!!
 

Lori Harris
Posted From: 67.3.9.217
Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 06:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Can anybody point me to some resources concerning 'roan X roan' crosses = 'lethal white' offspring? How about a roan Appaloosa mare X roan stallion?
 

whoadammitwhoa
Posted From: 209.32.236.173
Posted on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 08:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kat,
It sounds like your horse is a grulla. Our stallion was born a light dun color, then became an olive shade as a yearling, now he's a true silver grullo, with blue/silver/gunmetal/steel? body (depending on the season) black legs, black head, 2-tone mane & tail, and dark/black dun markings. You can see him on our site, www.sundogquarterhorses.com (Stallion page- where else! :-) )or I'd be happy to email pics of his color changes to you. They're quite remarkable, even a couple taken just a month or two apart show a drastic color change. I've also got a lot of grullo pics of foals and youngstock of many shades, if you'd like to compare.
 

Sandy
Posted From: 4.228.243.14
Posted on Saturday, May 08, 2004 - 01:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Update:
The dark gray pinto mare (which I actually think is a blue Taffy, more commonly known as the silver gene) that I bred to the buckskin foaled on 5/5...result....ready for this.....a black frame overo!
Turns out the mare is a tovero, which I thought she was a tobiano, and apparently the buckskin stallion must also carry the overo gene too, although he is solid, but does have one funky white spot on his hip. This is his first foal, so there isn't a prior production record to go from.
Now, I still don't know if this colt is a true black, or a smokey black. He is somewhat bluish/gunmetal in color, but at the same time there is just a light hint of gold/copper in certain spots when in the sun....mane and tail are jet black, muzzle hair is silver, ears are black, legs are white, so there is no way to tell the color on those.
As for the overo....I was told that if he tests negative for the Lethal White, then he will produce like a tobiano, but I don't see how that can be....even if he does test negative for LWO, wouldn't he still have the same 50/50 chance of producing overos like any other overo?
 

20+yrs.w/ Arabs
Posted From: 207.218.217.135
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 12:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Regarding the posting from Anonymous -6 entries up --S/he is partially incorrect. Yes, Arabians are never considered "white" -though their hair may be white, they are called grey. Arabians do have black skin, but they DO NOT HAVE BLACK SKIN UNDER THEIR WHITE MARKINGS - a white snip, stocking, blaze, etc. ...a white "marking" has PINK skin underneath - Prime example, my "grey" mare (who looks white) has a black muzzle except for where her stripe & snip come into it -that skin is pink ...and NEEDS sunscreen on it every other day here in TX or she blisters badly.
 

Eagle View Arabians
Posted From: 198.81.26.13
Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 01:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a question regarding sabinos. I bred my bay Arabian mare to a bay Arabian stallion. She has had two previous foals from this stud, both bay. One had 4 white socks and the other only had one white sock. Well, she foaled a month ago and had a chestnut with 2 high white stockings (up to the hocks) a full blaze and a big white belly spot. How in the world did this happen?
 

Cathy
Posted From: 65.54.98.163
Posted on Thursday, July 08, 2004 - 09:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sabino is a common gene in the arabian breed. It can be very minimally expressed and still be passed on. Either your mare or the stallion carries the gene. I have a sabino mare that is very minammally marked. I didn't know she had the gene until she produced 4 out of 6 sabino foals by 4 different stallions.
 

Anonymous
Posted From: 216.223.179.164
Posted on Sunday, November 21, 2004 - 11:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a question,I have a APHA chestnut overo with no blue eyes, sire was the more loud with one blue eye,dame is a solid APHA chestnut. My question is that he has two black spots on his hind end just down from his tail base about eight inces one on one side and one on the other and one of them is abot 3 inches in cir, the other about the size of a silver dollar, black pigment under neath.could this indicate anything?He has bred a few mares, one resulting was from a chestnut AQHA produced a chestnut solid one yr and the next was a chestnut overo both fillies,the next was a black tob( not homozygous for either color or pattern) and the resulting was a black tob colt,one bay tob in foal,black quarter/morgan in foal .what would be poss. on the bay tob? her sire is a black tob.dame is AQHA do not have her color. The bay tob has had seven other foals all tob after being bred to a tob. I'm just curious thank you to all that respond
 

horselady
Posted From: 64.230.182.9
Posted on Monday, November 22, 2004 - 10:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a bay homozygous tobiano mare in foal to a blonde sorrel ( Chestnut with a flaxen gene) His parents were both dark chestnut, and the mare's parents were homozygous buckskin( grandsire ) and dark bay (granddam)on damn's side

I am told the flaxen gene is double recessive and this sire is homozygous for that gene so all his foals will carry the gene, but in a recessive state He would have to be bred to another mare with a flaxen gene to get his gold color.

Any idea of what color this foal may turn out to be?
 

Dorthy Brown (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 136.181.195.17
Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 10:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I haven't seen anything in regards to Appaloosa's. I have a red roan appy and she is being bred to a Buckskin Quarter horse. My question is what are the chances are getting a foal with Appy coloring??
 

Debbie Burnett
Yearling
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 79
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 11:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

update to the post from November. My Bay tobi mare bred to the blonde sorrel had a bay tobi filly in May. :-)
 

Sandy D
Yearling
Username: Sbr_appaloosas

Post Number: 60
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 11:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dorthy,
You have a 50% chance of getting a foal that will roan out with age. The only way you're guaranteed a colored foal out of an Appy when cross breeding is if the Appy is homozygous. Snowcaps and fewspot leopards are the only known homozygous coat patterns in the Appaloosa.
Roan Appys and solid Appys are the lowest on the chart for color production.
Your best bet for getting color out of your mare is to breed her to another Appaloosa rather than out-crossing.
 

Amy C.
Nursing Foal
Username: Amyd_dawn

Post Number: 20
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 09:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was just wondering what color a colt would look like if I bred a bay mare to a paint stud that throw awsome color. I have bred my sorrel mare to him and had a paint colt but just wondering about the bay mare?
 

Cathy
Weanling
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 40
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 10:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What color is the stud?
 

Amy C.
Weanling
Username: Amyd_dawn

Post Number: 21
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 07:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

He is a white and brown stud with lots of beautiful markings.
 

Cathy
Weanling
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 41
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 01:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

By brown do you mean sorrel, bay, or what some people refere to as brown that can be black that has sun faded. Sorry for so many questions, but it really does matter to determine what color foals you can get.
 

laura hutchings
Neonate
Username: Queguapami

Post Number: 5
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 01:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eagle View Arabians:
Sabino is now very prevalant in Arabians. One famous Sabino was Khemosabi. He did not have the white belly markings but a lot of his foals did. I saw one mare he sired that had a bald face, white belly mark, and four stockings that were white up to just above the knees.
This trait is common in the Budweiser Clydes also.
 

laura hutchings
Neonate
Username: Queguapami

Post Number: 6
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 01:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

BTW........
I have a bay arab mare with a lot of bay in her pedigree. She was bred to a black and white paint and produced a chestnut tobiano pinto filly. The only chestnut I can find close-up in her pedigree is my mares grandsire. Did my new filly receive her coat color from him? Does this mean that she will not produce black if I breed her? Thanks
 

Amy C.
Weanling
Username: Amyd_dawn

Post Number: 22
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 11:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

sorry for not being real clear, the mare is a blood colored bay and the stud is white with sorrel markings. I have a sorrel mare that we bred to this same stud and she had a paint stud colt. half of his face was sorrel and the other half was white. I had never seen a paint with the one side of the color with the blue eye and the white side was the brown eye, I thought that was rather unique, usually the colored side has the brown eye and the white side has the blue eye.
 

Cathy
Weanling
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 45
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 08:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amy the colors you can get are black, sorrel, or bay. They will be either paint or solid if the sire is not homozygous.

Laura Your filly had to get a red gene from both parents. She does not have a black gene so she can not produce a black based foal unless bred to a black based stallion, which is where the foal would get the gene.
 

andy moore
Neonate
Username: Shrek2166

Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Thursday, December 29, 2005 - 11:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

my palomino paint mare (palomino/flaxen mane and tail/white face/white socks) was bred to a Blue Roan stud. What possible color combos could i expect?
 

Sandy D
Breeding Stock
Username: Sbr_appaloosas

Post Number: 129
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 12:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Okay, I'm gonna do my best here...

Your palomino is carrying the red gene and the cream dilution.
A blue roan is a black horse with the roan gene.

If the blue roan stallion is homozygous for black you will get a black or a smokey black.
If the stallion is not homo for black and carries the Agouti gene and passes it, you could get a bay, a buckskin, a palomino or a chestnut.
If the stallion does not carry Agouti and is not homo for black, you could get a chestnut, a palomino, a black, or a smokey black.
All of course with the 50% chance of paint markings (assuming the mare is not homozygous for paint) and 50% chance for roan.
Plus you have to throw in all the possibilites of whether or not the mare is carrying the black or Agouti genes too.
The color combos are pretty endless without knowing what the two parents are carrying.
All you know for sure is that there is the 50% possibility for paint, roan and the cream dilution.
 

E Watkins
Nursing Foal
Username: Evie

Post Number: 13
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 01:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is a really interesting thread, colors just fascinate me when it comes to horses. After reading this, I had to throw in my two cents. I have a red roan filly this is out of two roans, I'm confused on the issues with two roans being crossed. I'm assuming that my filly could not by homozygus for the roan gene or she wouldn't be here?? Either that, or one of the two parents was not a true red roan?
 

Cathy
Yearling
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 79
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, December 30, 2005 - 09:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Remember that both her roan parents are not homozygouse either. One throws the roan gene and one doesn't and you have a roan filly.
 

Deanna (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 66.244.207.114
Posted on Friday, January 20, 2006 - 06:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I HAVE A SORREL/CHESTNUT MARE, (SIRE WAS PALO DAM CHESTNUT) THAT I HAVE BRED TO A BUCKSKIN (BY BROWN SIRE OUT OF BUCK DAUGHTER) I HAVE DROVE MYSELF CRAZY ON PUNNETT SQUARES TRYING TO COME UP WITH A PERCENTAGE OF COLOR ... ANY HELP ON THIS?? THIS WILL BE THE MARES FIRST FOAL, I KNOW MY MARES FULL BROTHER IS A GORGEOUS PALOMINO!!
CAN ANYONE HELP WITH MY CHANCES .. I KNOW I AM LOOKING AT SOLID OF EITHER POSSIBLY, AND BUCKSKINS AND PALOS THE WAY THE DILUTION WORKS... BUT ANY ADVICE AS TO FIGURE THIS OUT WOULD BE GREAT WRANGLER_ASS8@HOTMAIL.COM (mare can be seen at http://crasycowgirl8.tripod.com and studs link is on their) or look up bueno fritzi nic X miss cody acre on "allbreedpedigrees.com" as i have entered the color history as far back as i can!!
Thanks for any input!! }
 

Jenn
Weanling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 24
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 06:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are the numbers that I come up with.

50% black based
50% red based

of total
50% cream (palamino, buckskin or smokey black)
50% no cream

The biggest guestion is agouti. The buckskin obviously has at least one copy of agouti. If he is heterozygous for agouti the black based foal could be bay or black, if he is homozygous for agouti all the black based foals would be bays (buckskin is bay with the cream gene).

On a strickly percentage basis
25% sorrel/chestnut
25% palamino
if hetro for agouti
12.5% buckskin
12.5% smokey black
12.5% bay
12.5% black
if homo for agouti
25% buckskin
25% bay
This is the best that I can estimate. I hope it helps.
 

Jan H (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 69.253.11.21
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 07:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is a question, I have a bay mare with sabino Characteristics, such as high socks, wide blaze, white chin (very flashy) She has 3 striped hooves I have looked at striped hooves on the internet and it says commonly seen in Appaloosas, but she is not appaloosa, I bred her to a homozygous tobiano he is sorrel and white. where did the striped hooves come from? I have other mares with white socks and one with high stockings but no striped hooves. What can I expect out of her with this breeding?
 

Kris Moos
Yearling
Username: Kris

Post Number: 55
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 08:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I second that question,, i have 2 chestnut arab mares both with striped hooves, (on their black feet)...where does that come from?
 

Kris Moos
Yearling
Username: Kris

Post Number: 56
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 09:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i thought i would add my two cents to color combinations... I have a bay roan (out of a red roan (i am thinking bay roan but were all registered as red roan years ago) and a sorrel) QH mare from a line that carries the roan, she was bred to a golden zebra dun (out of a red dun and a black) with all black points and dorsal, the resulting foal (by dna) is a buttermilk buckskin dun roan (or frosted "dunskin roan) whoa if that isnt a mouthful, but she is very unique! how did all that come into play?
okay now to add a twist, same stallion to a chestnut (out of a flaxen chestnut and a bay), what would be % of likely color combinations? ( i know chestnut is most likely),
 

Dena Smith
Neonate
Username: Maquinna_paints

Post Number: 3
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 11:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a black and white tobiano mare, Sire b&W tobi homozygeous, dam was solid black. I am breeding her to a palomino overo. Alsp breeding my black b/s paint mare to him as well, her sire was black and white tobi, not homo and the dam was black. She has a ton of buckskin and dun in her pedigree. What do you think I will get out of these 2 mares?
 

Jenn
Weanling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 38
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 01:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I will try to do my best.

Jan and Kris. Striped hooves are also very common in paints. As far as I know, what effects the hoof color is the skin color at the coronary band. Sometimes the color is in a very thin line and not easy to see. The good news is that striped hooves have the toughness of black and the "give" of white.

Jan - Bay sabino X sorrel homo tobiano
The only thing that is for sure is that the foal should have tobiano characteristics, 50% chance of displaying sabino characteristics along with the tobiano. I don't have enough info to make an accurate guess. if the bay is heterozygous for black, 50% chance of sorrel, 50% chance of black based, probably bay. Sorry that is the best I can do without knowing if the bay is hetero or homo for black and agouti. The sorrel could also be carring the agouti gene, so chances are high that it would be 50/50 for sorrel and bay.

Kris - Very unique indeed. It sounds like the foal got the roan from mom and the dun from dad, but to be a true "buckskin" she also needs the cream gene. The only color that hides the visible effects of cream is black ( which niether parent is from your description). Could it be possible that the bay roan mom could actually be a buckskin roan? Or possile that the foal is a bay roan dun? (I have heard that dun can light color in some combinations example-grulo)

Oh my goodness... and WHAT a twist. First, from what I understand "flaxen" only changes a color when it is homozygous so unless the stud also has a flaxen gene the foals color would not be affected by it. The colors that are left are bay and chestnut. The stud is heterozygous because one of his parents was sorrel. (point of interest - genetically sorrel and chestnut are the same color) This combination is 50/50 for sorrel/chestnut and bay. Each resulting foal also has a 50/50 chance of recieving the dun gene.

When you start getting combinations of genes like roan, dun, silver, sooty, etc you can get some wild and hard to diagnose colors. I have one mare that looks like a sooty bay, but if you look around her eyes, muzzel, and inside upper legs the color looks more like that of a buckskin. She is out of a bay and a buckskin so she really could be either under the soot. I am too cheap to have her genetically tested so I will just have to wait until I can see her babies. She is expecting her first this spring.

Dena - Well, the odds are good for getting black. First off, the mare that has dun in her pedegree does not cary the gene (otherwise she would be grullo). She may carry the cream gene (smokey black), but it is hard to tell.


Mare #1 - very good odds of black/smokey black foals. Since both parents were black, she has a 50/50 chance of being homozygous. If she is heterozygous 50/50 for black and red. The stud could carry the agouti gene which would make the blacks bay and the smokey blacks buckskin. Each foal would have a 50% chance of inheriting the cream gene which would make a sorrel foal palamino. As for markings, the foal could be tobiano, overo or tovero.

Mare #2 - Much the same as mare #1 except that if she does carry a cream gene there would be a 25% chance of a perilino or creamello. Also, any offspring that had markings would have to be overo because the mare doesn't carry any color genes.

Whew. I think I need to go rest. My hands are cramping. Sorry for being so long winded but I hope I helped answer you questions.
 

Kris Moos
Yearling
Username: Kris

Post Number: 63
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 08:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

jenn, the buttermilk buckskin dun roan filly was dna tested and found to be Cc Aa, that is what i tested her for, because to register her we needed to know because she appears to be a light grulla, but grulla would be aa,Cc,or AA,CC. and because she is a mix of white hairs her registration papers say "carries and expresses the roan gene". and she is frosted because the top and outsides of her tail are white or cream colored, and her whole top layer of her mane is white or cream colored ot see photo :[IMG]http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/krismoos/100_5231.jpg[/IMG]
she is pictured here with her mom.
The striped foot horses are not paints,or pintos, they are a registered arabians, with very modeled hooves.
than you for your info on the flaxen bay combo above, the mare out of that combo was bred to a bay and threw a flaxen, so flaxen it almost appeared palomino...wierd huh?
so if this doesnt throe a twist to ya?!
kris
 

Jan H
Neonate
Username: Jan_h

Post Number: 2
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 08:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jenn thank you so much! I will let you know what she has and send/post a picture of the foal to let you know how right you were! I know you have to be tired after all of that, I hope I am not responsible for giving you Carpel Tunnel. :-(
Thanks again for taking the time to give us this information YOUR WONDERFUL!
 

Jan H
Neonate
Username: Jan_h

Post Number: 3
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 08:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The mares previous breeding to a sorrel stallion produced a bay filly, does that help you any? Also here is the stallion she is bred to right now,
[IMG]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b399/cmpsp1/86cc6b2f.jpg[/IMG]
He is listed as a Tovero, but he is a Homozygous Tobiano his papers say Tobiano/Overo
in his pedigree it looks like there is only 2 bay horses in a sea of chestnuts and sorrels, on the mares side it is opposite a couple of sorrel/chestnuts in a sea of browns and bays. With the mare being a bay sabino and the stallion being a Tovero does this change your determination on what she will throw or is it the same result?
 

Jenn
Weanling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 42
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 11:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Okay, I have had a good nights sleep and have recovered.

I'll start with Kris. Well you have me a little stumped. Since you have had her DNAed (is that a word?) you do know her genetics. The big question is where did the cream come from?
Socks on a horse can cause striped hooves too. It seems to just be related to the pigment where the hoof grows.
As for the flaxen, I don't know much about it. I have read that it only shows when that horse is homozgous for it. The only horses I have known of that have the flaxen gene were a part of my life long before I started looking into color genetics.

Jan - The only thing that I will change on my determination is that now overo is also added in the mix. So as for paint markings, the foal WILL have tobiano characteristics, 50% of also have some sabino characteristics, and 50% chance of also having overo characteristics. I would love to see pictures of the babies when they arrive and hear how my predictions turned out.

I just love discussing every aspect of horses so thank you all for letting me ramble. We are currently expecting our first foals from our current breeding herd this spring so needless to say I am a little anxious to see what we get. Our mares are all very sick of me talking to their bellies, trying to listen to thier bellies, and trying to feel the foal move when they eat or drink.
 

Jenn
Weanling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 43
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 11:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kris, sorry I forgot to tell you your horses are gorgous and I also love that picture with the white snowy background. There is a lot more to a horse than just color, but a little chrome never hurts. Your girl has tons of chrome.

And Jan, he is a very good looking stud. I am sure you will get a beautiful baby. Something that I didn't mention is that the more "paint" genes in the mix, the more likely you are to get a foal with large quantities of white.
 

Jan H
Neonate
Username: Jan_h

Post Number: 5
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 12:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jenn Thanks I was hoping to get a medicine hat....really hoping, but I can accept and of course love anything she produces, If she has a medicine hat I plan on donating him to our Chief (Choctaw tribe) I have been trying for a few years and I think this is my best shot. If it is not one (medicine hat) it will be my riding horse so I win either way. I will keep you informed on what she has. I know you are excited about your babies. There is nothing like ones first foals. Good luck and thank you for your insight!

(Message edited by jan_h on January 24, 2006)
 

Jenn
Weanling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 46
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 01:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am very happy to be able to help you and as far as I know you have chance of getting a medicine hat. I will keep my fingers crossed for you. If the combination doesn't produce a medicine hat you could try breeding to a splash white overo.
 

Kris Moos
Yearling
Username: Kris

Post Number: 65
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 01:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

thanks jenn for your info, i will let you know how you did with what color prediction of my mares foal, and thank you for the compliment on the photo of my current "baby". ( shes not much of a baby anymore, shes a big girl now!) she is defineately a color i have never seen before, she has all the primitive dun marks on such a light color, it is really kind of neat,and a sweetie to go with it! she is a doll! i am hoping the sibling to her will be the same,(the stallion is real docile), only 2 months to go!
as far as the cream gene i am wondering if the stallion isnt really a buckskin dun and not just a dun, because he throws a lot of buckskins when bred to bays, blacks, and sorrels/chestnuts.
thank you for your iinfo, i am always looking to "pick peoples brains" to learn more for myself!
 

Jenn
Weanling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 47
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 02:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When they are yours from birth I think they remain babys forever. We have a 10 year old whos barn name became baby. I wish you luck in getting a great foal.
Also, when it comes time to breed that filly you are almost certain of getting "something" for added color.
 

Gynna Meiller
Yearling
Username: Jw_kings_excalibur

Post Number: 90
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 07:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jan H. The stripped hooves are from the Sabino gene. My stallion has it and one of my mares that has NO white markings on her legs at all has all 4 feet that are striped. She throws the sabino gene on her foals.
I wish you luck with your medicine hat foal! I have been told that you can only get a medicine hat by mixing the overo and tobiano genes but I am not sure if that is true. We bred our Moderate Sabino Foundation QH to a HOMO tobi mare. She was bred to a tobi stallion two yrs ago and threw an almost all white paint. With their conformation and pedagree there are folks wanting to buy the foal and its not born yet!
I too am Choctaw/Cherokee and what you are doing for your chief is wonderful.
 

Jan H
Neonate
Username: Jan_h

Post Number: 7
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 12:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Gynna, I hope we are able to get one this time. The stallion I bred her to is a Tovero (tobiano/overo) so we might get lucky, Jenn was very helpful in sharing her expertise in Equine Genetics. Which band of Choctaws are you from? I may know your family.
 

Jenn
Weanling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 50
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 25, 2006 - 01:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

3 of our horses have striped hooves and no sabino in any pedigree. There may actually be many genes that can cause striped hooves.
And thanks Jan, I am happy to help.
 

Gynna Meiller
Yearling
Username: Jw_kings_excalibur

Post Number: 93
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 06:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jenn, are the strips on the hoof on a white leg? My Reg. QH mare has NO white on her legs and still has the hoof stiping and I know its the sabino gene as she throws the white on her foals and she has a molted face marking. You cant tell by pedagree what QH carried the sabino gene unless you are lucky enough to find pics and get a chance to see. Both my horses get it from their dams side. I know that paints and appys can have striped hooves but I dont know what else would cause it on a solid colored leg, but I am still learning all this and they keep adding to it when you think you're getting caught up.
Jan H. I have no idea as its my biological fathers family and I have no contact with him..sorry, I wish I knew!
 

Jan H
Neonate
Username: Jan_h

Post Number: 8
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 07:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am sorry to hear that Gynna, it is a shame that a lost bird does not have a path to its ancestors lodge and heritage. Perhaps you could find a mentor to help you at least recover some of your heritage through higher learning and by word of mouth and experiences of others, one way is to go to some powwows, and ask around who is Cherokee/Choctaw you would be surprised how open many are to mentor a lost sparrow. I am a fancy dancer myself. sorry for the off topic post. It will not happen again.
 

Jenn
Yearling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 56
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 11:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You were also on an important topic.
On my horses the striped hooves are on mostly white legs. I wish I had a digital camera, I would take pictures, but I will try to describe the way mine are striped. 2 of them have white legs except for a couple small (ranging from 1" to 1/8" inch)strips of black hair above the black strips on thier hooves. The third has no black hairs, but the skin along the coranary band has a thin strip of black above the black portions of hoof. I hope that makes sence.
On your solid horses is most likely is sabino causing it, because sabino seems to hide well, but I would be very surprised if it was the only gene that causes it.
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 240
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 01:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gynna, It is true that the only way to get a medicine hat, which is a tovero= is from toby/overo or tovero/overo or tovero/tovero. You have to have one that throws a toby gene and one that throws a overo gene, most commonly found in breeding the toby/overo and normally the babies are mostly white in this crossing.
 

Jenn
Yearling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 58
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 02:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Kim. By Overo, which overo gene do you mean? I have not had much expirience with any of them as I breed tobianos. But, from what I have seen of overo genes I think the best chance for a medicine hat would come from a tobi/splashed overo combo.
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 241
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 03:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Jenn, when talking about overo I am referring to the splashed or frame overo. We have a toby mare and had a frame overo stallion and got a tovero 99 percent of the time.
 

Jan H
Neonate
Username: Jan_h

Post Number: 9
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 10:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

well since I am the one who was hoping for a medicine hat I guess I should respond. I have a minimal sabino (which is an overo) but it is minimal white (only a full blaze white chin two stockings and 1 sock and a small belly spot and she is bred to an almost 75% white tovero..I guess I may have failed again to get a medicine hat...thats sad, but I will keep the foal for myself if it does not turn out to be a medicine hat. I may just quit trying after this foal I think it just must not be meant to be.
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 246
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 11:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jan, I would not loose hope yet. My sabino mare bred to a frame overo has always thrown a tovero med. hat baby. My sabino mare started out with very little white(actually only enough to get her regulary registry with a belly spot as a yearling)she has high white stockings, and a large white blaze(not past the eyes). You have a good chance. Don't give up yet ! You can get a tovero med hat from you breeding combo that you have done.

Let us know
Kim
 

Jan H
Neonate
Username: Jan_h

Post Number: 10
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 07:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I will Kim thanks, is it normal for a sabino to have roaning on the edges of the white markings? her blaze extends over the top of one of her eyes thus giving her blue specks in the pigment of one eye. Her stockings(actually I am unsure if they are stockings or socks) do not extend above her hocks, the stockings do extend to points into the colored part of the leg and there is roaning where the white and bay color meet. She has a partially white top lip and a full white chin

Here is her picture:[IMG]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b399/cmpsp1/cf6f9ffa.jpg[/IMG]
Here is the stallion she is bred to:
http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b399/cmpsp1/86cc6b2f.jpg
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 249
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 09:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Jan,
Its hard to see some of the white hairs in the photo . It is hard to see but it appears as if there is white shadows that cast over the dark hairs on her legs , and I believe that is pretty common.

Before I forget I copied this link from apha. This is a neat article to read about sabino genes.http://www.apha.com/breed/pdf/SabinoDec98.pdf
I am very proud to say that I have a colt that came from Scenic View ranch that is mentioned in the article with some very powerful bloodlines in him. With some of the very breeding in him.
I wonder if you won't see more whites appear in her as she ages. My mare seems to have come to a stand still. She is very much like one of these horses posted. Peopele get the roan and sabino gene mixed up alot. Take alot at the article , its very informative.

Kim
 

Jenn
Yearling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 64
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 11:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting article. Thank you Kim. And Jan, from what that article said it quite possible for you to get a medicine hat. I'm still keeping my fingers crossed for you.
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 252
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 11:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your Welcome !
 

Jan H
Nursing Foal
Username: Jan_h

Post Number: 12
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 12:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jenn for your encouragment and best wishes that I get a Medicine Hat, and for your insight into equine genetics. You too Kim and thank you for that article, it was very informative and helped me to understand the sabino gene so much better! I hope this foal is a medicine hat but even if it is not, I will love it just the same and just want a healthy stong foal. Thank you both again for everything "your the best"!Nahatachea (means offered blessings) in choctaw. also Yokoke (thank you) in choctaw. :-)
 

Jenn
Yearling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 66
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 12:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wish you the best in your noble cause, and I know it will be a loved foal regardless of color. And please, please be sure to post a picture of the new baby when he/she arrives. Just out of intrest sake, do you have a rough estimate when your mare is due?
 

Jan H
Nursing Foal
Username: Jan_h

Post Number: 13
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, January 27, 2006 - 02:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

estimated due date 340 days will be March 8th that is calculated from her last insemination. I promise to keep you all informed and post pictures of the foal within a week of its birth! I am sure it will be the first day it is born...one has to brag. Thanks again.
 

Amitola Dreamer
Nursing Foal
Username: Amitoladreamer

Post Number: 14
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 05:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a tri-colored or bay mare, she is pinto, tobiano. I bred her to a stallion, same as her bay pinto. I got a chestnut pinto foal from that breeding. I plan on breeding her this year to an arabian. I have two that I like, one is grey, a bay when born and one is solid black. Neither of which are pinto. I wanted to know what are my best chances of getting a pinto foal, with which stallion, and what the chance of the foal greying out would be if bred to the grey. I really want a pinto, don't care what color and would prefer him/her not to grey out. Thanks in advance.
 

Emily West, Gracie Due 04/11/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 477
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2008 - 09:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amitola,
With either stallion you have a 50% chance of getting a pinto through your mare so in that way it doesn't matter who you breed with. If you breed to the grey stallion you have a 50% chance that the foal will turn grey.
Good Luck. :-)



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