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Is this what is classed as Sabiano?

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » Is this what is classed as Sabiano? « Previous Next »


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Lori aka " Raven"
Breeding Stock
Username: Raven

Post Number: 385
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 05:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For those of you that know their genetics and markings are these white markings and patches what is classed as a sabiano?
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e107/rav123en/IMG_0099.jpg
On this one you can see some tiny spots of white they are all over her body:
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e107/rav123en/IMG_0098.jpg
http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e107/rav123en/IMG_0097.jpg

Another question if it is a sabiano and she is bred to a maxed out white (medicine hat) overo is there any chance of LW foal?
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 630
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 06:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori ,
if she is a sabino and then bred to a medicine hat, both would have to have the lw gene. Does not matter how much white a med. hat has , they both have to carry the lw gene in order to have a chance of getting a lw baby.
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 631
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 06:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.apha.com/breed/pdf/SabinoDec98.pdf

Lori, here is a article from apha. Very interesting to read on sabinos.

Kim
 

Lori aka " Raven"
Breeding Stock
Username: Raven

Post Number: 386
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 08:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kim K the article was good to read but would Lady be classed as a sabino with the amount of white markings on her? The stud is double bred Scenic Jetolino, would my posibilities be far greater of Lady producing a sabino foal because of these markings on her?
 

Jet
Neonate
Username: Jet

Post Number: 8
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 10:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does she have any socks? Is there white on her chin? The white going up the side of the face looks like sabino, if she has white on the chin, I'd definitely say she is a carrier. If you breed her to another sabino carrier, you could get a very loudly marked foal.

Test your mare for frame overo prior to breeding her. If she tests negative, then you never have a chance of getting a lethal white, even if the stud is positive. If she is positive, only breed her to a negative stallion, and ask to see DNA verification that he is negative.
 

Megan A Brown
Breeding Stock
Username: Fabmeg

Post Number: 134
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 11:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with Jet, you can NOT TELL from marking if a horse is a LW carrier. It is more associated with some than others, but nothing is 100%. She probably is a Sabiano, though minimal. Your foal has a high probability of getting the gene, but It may be expressed as minimally as it's mothers.
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 632
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 07:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori,
Although your mare may be sabiano and minimally expressed that does not mean she will have only a minimally expressed baby. My mare is expressed in the middle. She consistantly throws a max. expressed sabino.

As well, the jetletto line carries some strong sabino genes.

Agreed that you can not tell if a horse(any horse) carries the lw gene without being tested. Again, Painted Robin came from two solid AQHA registered quarter horses.
 

Lori aka " Raven"
Breeding Stock
Username: Raven

Post Number: 387
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 09:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jet, my mare does have white on her chin and actually there are more white spots on her but I could not get all of them in a pic. That is why you only see the more prominant ones in the pics I supplied. I cannot tell of any white socks For Lady is a QH, white grey and the only way to see anything on her is when she is wet.

Kim K- So as a sabino carrier, should I be worried about breeding her to any certain colored paints? With Lady then I should be getting a loud colored foal with the posibities of a sabino foal? Or even a maxed out white foal?
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 633
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 10:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori,
I would guess that jet with having white on her chin that she has a good chance of being a sabino, as that is one key white that is being looked at. What breed is Jet ?

Lady the grey mare ? I had a flea bitten grey mare and she was fleckled the same way , so is that a sabino gene ?? What breed it the grey mare?

I am unaware of any certian "colored" paints to avoid breeding too. The color patterns is what is worrysome to many. It is the lw gene that one has to worry about. The lw gene is showing up in most all lines of horses... qh, paint, tb. It does not need to be expressed in any form to be present. So your mare could be sabino with a lw gene as well. Depending on her breed and gentic line would also help indicate it. A test would clairify it. And if you are breeding overo to overo paints(even solid color paints), paints to qh, and even qh to qh(some genitic lines have bigger chances) there is a chance of a lw.


I would imange that your possibilites are good with the jetletto lines for the sabino foal with good chance of getting a loud colored foal. Sometimes the foals will color out more as the age as did jetletto. As he aged he became almost white.

Hope this helps!
 

Jenn
Breeding Stock
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 183
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 11:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori, if you wanted to set your mind at ease, I would recomend getting your mare tested for OLW. I think the test costs around $50, and if your mare doesn't carry the gene she cannot have a lethal white foal.
 

Lori aka " Raven"
Breeding Stock
Username: Raven

Post Number: 388
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 11:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kim K - Jet is not the name of the mare, I'm only dealing with one mare here and that is Lady. Sorry for any confusion. Lady is a QH fleabitten grey (white) with those spots on her. Yes a fair amount of white on her chin along with a blaze & snip. Then as you seen the white patch on her chest. She comes from all racing lines of Dash for Cash and Cash and Balance. I'm not too too worried about the LW issue since I am not really breeding an overo to overo. And yes I know what is said that it can happen in qh solids. Lady has had 7 foals to date and has not had a lw foal, I suppose a chance to take, but.... my suspisions are not there of any lw gene.
Thanks for the info on this subject.
 

Jennifer
Nursing Foal
Username: Kidchaser5

Post Number: 18
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 04:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Lori,

UC Davis has a test for the Sabino gene now. It is new and it is called the Sabino 1 test. If you have her tested for that plus the LWO gene, it will cost $50, but I hear there are other places that do it cheaper. I had my colt tested for these, the cream gene, AND the Red Factor/Agouti for $100, so it really isn't alot of money for your peace of mind(especially if you plan to breed her). I have now decided to geld my colt, but I am glad to know what color he really is! Here's a pic of him. Can you believe he is a genetic buckskin!? I just got his papers in the mail a couple days ago and I'm just glad they put the correct color on them. They would've just put palomino/overo since it seemed that would be their best guess!
[IMG]http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58/kidchaser5/jenspics064.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58/kidchaser5/jenspics099.jpg[/IMG]
 

Gynna Meiller
Breeding Stock
Username: Jw_kings_excalibur

Post Number: 130
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 08:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Remember that its not sabino that carries the leathal white gene but frame overo. Many different breeds of horses carry the sabino gene. You can have a LW gene in any color patern if you know that some where down the line was a frame overo. The sabino gene is NOT a true paint gene like frame or splash overo or tobiano. These are all Sepperate genes. That being said, many paint horses that APEAR to be simply sabino may indead have a frame overo in there line somewhere that did indeed thow that gene. What they are saying now is that even if a horse appears to be only Tobiano that if there was a frame overo in the pedagree then the horse should be tested.
ALSO, you mare does have the molted skin, and some patches that are some of the characteristics of sabino, but not every horse will show all of them. My stallion is a foundation bred QH that is a moderate sabino( chin spot, some roanin, irregular facial and leg markings, molting around his testicals ect) he has thrown four foals this year and all have irregular facial paterns but only one is loud and he is out of a tobiano mare. One colt has three white socks.
I have a mare that has NO white on her legs but has striped hooves, small but irregular facial markings..she throws moderate sabino foals every time! If you have a fear of you mare carring the LWO gene then by all means have her tested for your peace of mind. And remember, they are still learning a lot about genes and geno type as yet!!
 

Lori aka " Raven"
Breeding Stock
Username: Raven

Post Number: 389
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 09:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good, I know Lady has no paints in her pedigree so I am figuring than I should be safe with her just being a sabino.
This should prove interesting than as to how this foal should come out with color!
Thanks everyone for your input
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 634
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 10:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori,

I posted this earlier in this thread, but want to make sure that you saw it and are aware of it that it is possible for it to show up. some claim that it is only frame overo that throws the lw gene. It was once called the olw (overo lethel white) now being addressed as lw (leathel white). It can show up even without being "paint". The overo gene they are finding is not the only place its being found. Its hiding in other places too. You can get a frame overo foal from two solid Quarter horses. Painted Robin is was a 1960 frame overo foal out of two solid color quarter horses-a 1955 sire and a 1950 dam. Just food for thought. You probabally won't have any problems, I personally wouln't test your mare but there could be a slim chance. I personally don't test my mares either. I have been breeding horses for many years standing a paint stallion and knowing many that breed paints. Yes it is devistating when it happens but life is about chances. I knew a gal that bred her solid bay paint mare that the first time she bred her threw a lw foal. She chose to rebred the mare as she wanted the disposition and conformation that she bred to and then got a beautiful (solid :-( ) colt. There are a few lines that seem to produce more lw foals than others. I also know of another breeder that has found (unscientifically) that they receive the highest chances of a lw foal if breeding a solid bay(qh) to paints. Who know what it is. They are a large breeder and have had many mares in and out , not just breeding the same few mares. I also know another old timeer that has always told me when purchasing a qh for breeding , wanting to produce paint foals to look for a qh mare that has the highest whites on the legs and the most white allowable on the face. Sure enough, this has proven a good suggestion. As I have seen this to produce the most "spotted" paint foals.

The genitic pool of this gene is still being learned ! This post is just food for thought and things that I have personally learned through experience and others first hand knowledge.

Kim
 

Lori aka " Raven"
Breeding Stock
Username: Raven

Post Number: 390
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 11:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kim K, Thanks now a days anything is possible when breeding. I am not trying to breed for a paint just I had this breeding and used it with Lady. Then the more I looked at her and learned from this board I was just wondering if she indead was a sabino and if there was any posibilities of having a lw foal. She has never had any paint foals before and the stud has never produced any lw foals. I do know Lady is geno typed but as to what, that I do not know.

Food for thought, well digested Thanks
 

Gynna Meiller
Breeding Stock
Username: Jw_kings_excalibur

Post Number: 134
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Tuesday, June 06, 2006 - 04:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kim, while I am not in disagremnt with the gal that is having LW out of a solid QH mare I find it HIGHLY inprobable as you must have two LW genes to produce a LW foal. I have never heard of a QH with no paint lines, having this gene. I would not believe it until they had that QH tested for LW and it was positive. I do know that many folks, including some vets, have mistakenly destroyed all white or nearly all white foals for fear of them being a leathal white when in truth they were actualy MAX sabinos! and yes two QH can produce a max sabino.
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 637
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, June 06, 2006 - 08:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gynna,I understand that it takes two of the lw gene to produce a lw foal.
I don't doubt this breeder as they are experienced vets as well, paints genitics are not something new to them. With large populations of mares coming in and out of their farm. They were able to note the problem well before many would ever admit to it. The people that I have known that have had lw foals don't just put them down they wait the waiting game to see how the foal does. Once the foal starts showing signs of distress, not eating, lacking the desire to thrive, then the decision is made. Even so, many don't want a all white horse anyways. I'm not saying its correct to destroy the all white healthy foal(I wouldn't do it.), but some would not want to deal with it anyways.

"i have never heard of a QH with no paint lines,having this gene." This statement disturbs me as I posted from above Painted Robin was from two solid colored horses. No Paint . It is possible it is there. Two solid colored QH-only qh genitics can produce a frame overo baby.
 

Heather Kutyba
Breeding Stock
Username: Heatherck11

Post Number: 242
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, June 06, 2006 - 11:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have seen LW out of solid QH mares that were bred to paints. I have also seen one out of a QH bred to QH (max white legs, known to throw paints). It is possible, and is documented. Granted, less likely, but still possible.
 

Gynna Meiller
Breeding Stock
Username: Jw_kings_excalibur

Post Number: 136
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 09:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ITs just so scary now days breeding anyway. Like I said I dont doubt you Kim. They are coming in with new genetic makeups and modifiers, and who knows what else is out there. They are saying now that SABINO is not a true Paint gene as other breeds of horses carry this gene. I am interested to see how many lw foals clydesdales have as they are one of the leaders in the sabino gene pool! I think much is caused by the unfortunate mis management and old breeding methods of the days of old when two or three stallions roamed with a large herd of mares and at foaling time they just went around going," yeppers , thatun out there is outa ole Jake and thatun over yonder looks like a Yeller colt and thaten right cher is a Big Joe for sure!! Iknow this happened..I have seen it myself until good ole DNA kicked in!! Now they need to start it for the breeding stock on Paint horses I think.. I know I have seen MARES swap foals or steel em from right under the foals mamma! Can you just IMAGINE the mess 60 years ago from some of the not so smrat( short for smart) breeders shoot fire, you coulda had a reg QH outa a Percheron/appy stallion and an arab mare just cause there happened to be a QH stallion out in the pasture and a foal nursing on his QH mamma...Would explain a bunch huh..lol..I can still remember our first horse..El Blanco! He was an Albino!! gee..I mean a cremmelo...hey didnt they use to be reg. paints...so many changes..its hard to keep up!
 

Jet
Neonate
Username: Jet

Post Number: 10
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 12:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Clydesdales will not have any LW foals because LW is not linked to sabino... it is linked to frame.
 

Gynna Meiller
Breeding Stock
Username: Jw_kings_excalibur

Post Number: 144
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 12:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jet, thats what I thought but apparently others disagree..
 

Jet
Nursing Foal
Username: Jet

Post Number: 11
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 04:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Who disagrees? I have never heard of a frame overo Clydesdale, only sabinos.
 

Jenn
Breeding Stock
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 209
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 05:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Many people dissagree that the frame overo and lethal white gene are the ones that are linked (but it is usually people who breed for frame overos )
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 639
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 05:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is not just a frame overo--it is a specific gene, not linked to the every frame overo gene.It is also now being called a lethel white and not overo lethel white as it is not just in paints.

It is offensive to say that "frame overo" breeders disagree.
 

Megan A Brown
Breeding Stock
Username: Fabmeg

Post Number: 151
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 08:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

AS I have said before, People over simplify genetics. UC Davis has identified multiple types of Sabino, and the Sabino they have a test for is not the Clydesdale Sabino. This is not coming from a paint horse breeder; this is coming from a genetics student.

LW may be associated with Frame overo more than any other coat pattern, but there is more than one gene at work. It may be that the LW gene and one of the genes that makes a horse overo are right next to each other on the chromosome, so they are often inherited together, but the fact that LW has been seen in non paint horses would indicate that they can't be caused by the one, exact same gene.

(Message edited by Fabmeg on June 14, 2006)
 

Jet
Nursing Foal
Username: Jet

Post Number: 12
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 11:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not talking about Sabino here, I am talking about frame. Have any Clydesdales tested positive for LW? Have there ever been any Lethal White Clydesdale foals born and confirmed?

Also, the LW foals that were born from non-Paint parents... were the mare and stallion tested afterward for the LW gene? If so, did they test positive?
 

Gynna Meiller
Breeding Stock
Username: Jw_kings_excalibur

Post Number: 147
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 06:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Megan,
Were did you find this artical as I would love to read it? I find learning genetics complicated but VERY interesting and iformative. I own a Foundation bred QH that is a sabino carrier as well as a mare that even though she has almost NO white( non at all on her legs) she has striped feet and throws foals with high socks about 80% of the time.
Kim,
Remember that frame overo has been linked to this gene for years and it will take time for folks to re-adjust their thinking.
Folks, lets try not to offend anyone as this is a learning experience not a slam base for breeders of any particular breed. I myself breed my stallion to more paint mares it seems than QH at this time because he has the sabino gene that folks are wanting to cross on their paint mares( I guess it made them feel "safer". So I am interested to learn more so that I can be more informative to my mare owners.
I would like to read more articals on foals that are considered LW. Have any LW foals servived on their own ( without the colon surgery)?
I breed out to one mare that is a curiousity to me as well.
I have always been told that the Tobiano gene does not carry the blue eye gene only overos or Toveros, but this mare, as far back as 11 generations, goes to nothing but Tobianos and QH but has ONE blue eye and she threw that on her first colt.
 

Megan A Brown
Breeding Stock
Username: Fabmeg

Post Number: 152
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 01:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jet- No there have never been any lethal white Clydesdales, there have also never been any appaloosa or dun or palomino or buckskin or true roan colored Clydesdales born. What's your point? Not all breeds of horses have the same gene pool. the Clydesdales sabino gene is not the same as the light horse sabino gene. In fact a crossbreed could have two different kinds of sabino gene. The LW gene is not "linked" in the sense that all overo horses have it, and it is not "linked" to sabino either. Any paint horse could have the gene, and any horse that comes from the same kind of original stock as the paint horse could also have the gene, regardless of the color. You don't need to test your Clydesdales, but it might be worth while to test what looks like a max-sabino though breed or quarter-hours. The lethal white gene is an independently inherited gene, you can get the LW gene and not the overo coat pattern. Though I don't have access to the article online, one of the more recent genetic studies suggested that is you were going to link the gene to any physical characteristic, the better bet would be to say the more white they express, the more likely they carry the gene, but even that will be wrong almost as often as the "frame" generalization. Please read this site, it is from the APHA, written by vets, about the actual discovery of the gene.
http://www.apha.com/breed/lethalwhites03.html
Also if the foal is tested W/W, which they must be in order to be confirmed, regardless of what the parents look like, they must be W/w.

Gynna- if you want to try your hand at reading geneticist, this is a copy of summery portion of the scientific paper on the original study,
http://www.rbi.it/restricted/pages/04/4f.htm
Otherwise they talk a little bit about it here on the UC Davis site. If you keep looking on the site they have some more information about LW as well.
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/service/horse/coatcolor.html

(Message edited by Fabmeg on June 15, 2006)
 

Megan A Brown
Breeding Stock
Username: Fabmeg

Post Number: 153
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 03:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.northpinefarm.com/df.html
not exactly “frame”
http://www.lydaypaints.com/Sid/Sid-Home.html
this guy has more of the frame characteristics
http://www.simonsshowhorses.com/hkextraordinary.htm
looks pretty frame to me
http://www.harrispainthorses.com/mrmacentire.htm
hard to tell, could be frame or Splash
http://kickinkranch.homestead.com/Barlnkmachotoo.html
Again maybe this is Sabino, But more likely it is an kind Overo with out the LW, his foals don’t look very Sabino to me.
http://www.chafinspaintedacres.com/stallion.htm
Tovero, but that still has overo in it.
http://www.staasspaintedworld.com/sales.htm

You can keep at it all you want, but these horses are still out there proving that coat pattern is not 100% indicative of the genes you carry.
 

Jet
Nursing Foal
Username: Jet

Post Number: 13
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 03:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm gonna keep at it a little longer.

Gynna said this...

"I am interested to see how many lw foals clydesdales have as they are one of the leaders in the sabino gene pool!"

That's my point. Clydesdales are sabinos--sabinos don't produce lethal whites (unless they are sabino and frame carriers.) Clydesdales DO NOT carry frame. They cannot produce lethal whites. I consider a frame horse to be any horse that has tested positive for the LW gene, whether or not they are solids or pintos, Clydesdales or Paints. I never said it was linked to sabino, I said it was NOT linked to sabino. Maybe where I am confusing you is by calling all LW carriers "frames." Perhaps I sould simply call them "LW Carriers" since they do not all exhibit the frame pattern.

I have already read all of the things you posted. (BTW, I don't put much stock into anything the APHA reports because they can't even tell a tovero from a tobiano. I also don't think it is correct for them to lump sabino, splash and frame together under the generic title of overo, since they are clearly different genes. But that's another can of worms.)

Now, for your examples--here is my take on them. I don't consider any of them to be frame because they don't look frame and they tested negative, so we know they are not LW Carriers--therefore, not frame in my book.

http://www.northpinefarm.com/df.html
He is sabino and probably splash.

http://www.lydaypaints.com/Sid/Sid-Home.html
Not frame, sabino. White on chin, pointy stockings, belly white.

http://www.simonsshowhorses.com/hkextraordinary.htm
A little more confusing, but the stockings scream sabino. I suspect splash is causing the blaze minus lower lip white and the big spot on the side.

http://www.harrispainthorses.com/mrmacentire.htm
I see sabino and probably splash.

http://kickinkranch.homestead.com/Barlnkmachotoo.html
Definitely splash. Probably sabino, too--the back stockings come to a point and the belly white appears very jagged. One of his foals is minimally marked splash and the other is very loud splash.

http://www.chafinspaintedacres.com/stallion.htm
Toveros are very hard to tell. You can definitely see sabino in some of his foals, where it appears that the mares do not have it. Could be some splash in him too.

I would like to see the geneticists focus on the Splash gene. I believe more horses out there carry it than we realize.

For instance http://colormorgans.tripod.com/othercolors.htm shows two very, very minimally marked splash horses produced one wildly marked filly and one minimally marked filly.

My examples for frame...

Frame pattern:
http://www.raisethebarfarms.com/stallion.htm
The page does not state whether he has been tested, but the breeding contract leads me to believe that he has been tested positive.

Frame (genetic) horse w/o frame pattern:
http://www.minibreeders.com/ovationfarm/sales.htm
(The bottom two...Redrock Nite Lites and Ovation Farm Midnight Magic)

*Whew* I am long-winded tonight.
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 183
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 09:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jet I agree with you completely about the color of the above horses. I think a very large number of horses are called frame that are splash and/or sabino.

(BTW, I don't put much stock into anything the APHA reports because they can't even tell a tovero from a tobiano. I also don't think it is correct for them to lump sabino, splash and frame together under the generic title of overo, since they are clearly different genes. But that's another can of worms.) Amen!!
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 641
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 11:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe that once a foal is born out of a toby and overo it should be labled as a tovero even if it doesn't show a overo type cross pattern because you don't need to see the overo to throw the overo gene. That way others will be well informed that the animal is a tovero cross. Can carry the overo genes.That way the under educated people will see that it is tovero and know that there is then a chance of throwing the overo gene, instead of these foals being listed as tobys and people thinking that is the only thing that they are, when genitically they can carry the overo gene. Even though you can look only so far on a set of papers what is there and the patterns, the overo may be off the papers.

APHA has called a pattern only by looks and not by what is genitically there in the horses gene makeup and unless challenged by a individual, on a individual case by case issue , will continue to do so. They are still learning, as we all are. I have spoken to our director for my region and they are very interested in hearing from their members. What concerns there are. They to do have many concerns with issues and are addressing them one at a time, but also have to be very careful, legeally, because we as humans are lawsuit happy.
 

Jet
Nursing Foal
Username: Jet

Post Number: 14
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 02:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cathy--I think you're right. I also think that people have in mind that a sabino is always very roan-looking (you know--speckled) and they see a lot of these horses with blazes/chin white and white on the legs and they don't think it's sabino. I don't think a lot of people realize how minimally marked a sabino can be.

Kim--I agree that if the foal is a pattern cross and exhibits more than one pattern it should be called a tovero. I have a filly here that the APHA refuses to call anything but a tobiano, even though she clearly exhibits sabino markings. The reason they refuse is because her sire and dam are listed as tobianos (even though they both have sabino characteristics as well.)

I would expect APHA to change the way things are done once science isolates all of the pattern genes and figures out a test for them. I'd like to see the horses genotype represented on the papers, so as a breeder, you will know what you are dealing with.
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 642
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 05:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jet, I was saying that even if it doesn't exibit the overo that as long as it has overo breeding to a toby that it should be labeled a tovero as the gene can show up at a later time if thier offspring. You need not see overo to get overo.
 

Megan A Brown
Breeding Stock
Username: Fabmeg

Post Number: 155
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, June 16, 2006 - 06:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.springerlink.com/(a34cwlyba3ynqbfgg40vnerh)/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issu e,3,19;journal,97,186;linkingpublicationresults,1:100364,1
Horses with tobiano markings included some carriers, indicating that tobiano is epistatic to frame overo. In addition, horses were identified that were carriers but had no recognized overo coat pattern phenotype, demonstrating the variable penetrance of the mutation. The test for this mutant allele can be utilized in all breeds where heterozygous animals may be unknowingly bred to each other including the Paint Horse, Pinto horse, Quarter Horse, Miniature Horse, and Thoroughbred.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=339559
and here is a record of a LW born to a Quarter horse mare.
As long as you stop calling all LW cariers Frames, I'll be happy. And It was the univerty or wisconson not the APHA that did the study.

(Message edited by Fabmeg on June 16, 2006)
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 643
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 01:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It has been a big time issue for me to make others aware that lw is not just frame overo horses. Althought I have to question the article at www.pubmedcentral ,as it states that the mares sire is a sorrel overo , it is not clear if they mean the qh mare that was pg that gave birth to a lw or if the sorrel overo was the foals sire. If it was the qh mares sire (then I thought it should be a reg. paint and not a qh mare, but I know that the associations at different times had different registration rules) it would make sense why the baby could be a lw if the mare was a solid mare with overo breeding from her sire. That is why I too refer to these animals as being "overo breeding stock" they may be solid but have overo breeding in them, the association should make note the difference between overo breed stock and toby breedstock.

I couldn't get anything out of your first link. :-(

I totally agree with you about who can carry the lw gene. Its out there in all different breeds
 

Trademark Farms
Neonate
Username: Pinto_paso

Post Number: 2
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 03:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For those that argue LWO is found in anything other than overo - they have not read basic genetics.
The overo gene is a genetic mutation, and is easily tested for scientifically.
[quote]Lethal White Overo (LWO) syndrome occurs when a horse is homozygous (OO) for the frame overo gene.[/quote] it has always been called this - no name change has taken place.

sabino IS a pinto pattern - but not linked to overo as was once thought - in fact there are more than one sabino gene (sb1 is the first scientifically identified) the proof of this is that Clydes and arabs (who traditionally have hight peaked stockings, white girth etc) have not been found to carry the sb1 gene. Horses of Spanish decent do carry(QH, stock horses, multiple gaited breeds, mustangs etc).

It is possible to have an all white horse that is the result of homozgyous (2) sb1 genes.

(Message edited by pinto paso on October 20, 2010)
 

Trademark Farms
Neonate
Username: Pinto_paso

Post Number: 3
Registered: 06-2009
Posted on Wednesday, October 20, 2010 - 03:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sabiano is a horse that is dna tested to carry both the sabino (sb1) and tobiano genes. Just as a tovero carries the tobiano and overo gene..
Genes do not "mix" the name reflects the fact that more than one pattern exists
 

Kathee McGuire
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Katheekj

Post Number: 1637
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Thursday, January 06, 2011 - 01:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Question for Trademark Farms - I knew they have been researching the Sb1 gene, but didn't realize they conclusively pulled it out of the Overo classification. Last I heard they speculated that it was probably multiple genetic factors and Sabino was getting all the credit. I would love to see that report or site so I can update my information. Can you point me in the right direction?
 

Sarah R
Neonate
Username: Sarah_r

Post Number: 4
Registered: 10-2011
Posted on Monday, October 10, 2011 - 06:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The term you're referring to is "sabino." Your horse does not carry sabino. The horse is simply gray, what you may be referring to are the chesnut-colored fleabites. They are very common on grays.



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