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Dun versus buckskin

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » Dun versus buckskin « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

AG
Yearling
Username: Tilly

Post Number: 55
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 06:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a question about the difference between dun and buckskin, I thought I understood it but now i'm not so sure. My understanding is that to be dun you have to have a dorsal stripe, so I assume buckskins do not have dorsal stripe. In Ireland we dont seem to differentiate between dun and buckskin, they all seem to be called and registerd as a dun. My question really regards producing a cremello, as the big worry of connemara breeders is producing one as they cant be approved.
My understanding is that to produce cremello you have to have the cream gene on both sides, so you would have to breed a buckskin and buckskin etc. Is this correct?
So if you breed two duns, with a dorsal stripe are you guaranteed to not get cremello? Can a horse carry the dun gene, producing the dorsal stripe, but also carry the cream gene?
I also thought that if a horse carried the cream gene that it would always be expressed as a diluted colour, is this correct?
how can you guarantee to not produce cremello when dealing duns, buckskin and grey masking either?
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 614
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 08:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ag, this is how it differs with the paint horse assocaition.

The only difference is that the dun has primitive markings. the shoulder barring, leg barring, and tipped ears and dorsal strip. It is a added genitic trait. so this is how I understand it a dun starts out as a buckskin and then gets that added genitic trait. So that is why so many are called a buckskin dun. Then you add the red gene which you end up with a red dun which is the same as a dun only the mane and tail are of the red color and not the black or brown.

Aqha is saying basically the same but states that buckskins typically do not have a dorsal strip and have black on the lower legs. I must say that many times I have seen a "buckskin" with a black dorsl strip down its back and no other markings primitive markings.

Sorry Ag, I am not going to attempt the other questions regarding the cream gene. Someone else will have too !
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 164
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 10:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

AG cream and dun are two different and distinct genes. They are both dilution genes, and have an affect on different base color horses.

A buckkin is a black horse with an agouti and cream gene. Buckskins will have the black edging on their ears and some will have countershading that is mistaken for a dorsal stripe.
What most people refere to as dun is the dun gene on a bay horse, but it has some if not all of the primative markings. It is also the color most mistakenly called buckskin. Also with the dun horses the heads are typically darker than their body. The head of a buckskin will be the same shade as their body.
The cream gene does not modify all coat colors like dun does. Black can hide the cream gene but not the dun gene.
To produce cremello you are correct that the offspring has to receive a cream gene from each parent, so you will always have a chance to produce ccremello when breeding two cream dilutes. To get one from dun parents they would both also have to carry the cream gene.
If dun and buckskin are called dun in Ireland be carefull what you breed if you don't want a double dilute. A true dun bred to a cream horse will not produce one. If you are using a grey horse just besure you know what the base color was before it greyed out.
Hope this helps.
 

Kris Moos
Breeding Stock
Username: Kris

Post Number: 768
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 11:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

AG-
here is a single vream gene buttermilk buckskin-dun roan filly (has been dna tested to prove this )from a bay roan mare [IMG]http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/krismoos/101_6981.jpg[/IMG]and this dun stallion (has not been dna tested but throws ALOT of buckskins and can only do this by having a cream gene)[IMG]http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/krismoos/100_5326.jpg[/IMG]who carries a cream gene, and here is a buckskin colt from same stallion and a chestnut arab mare [IMG]http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/krismoos/100_7374.jpg[/IMG].
a dun HAS to have black points and a dorsal as well as leg barring, other primitive markings are extra, a buckskin is a bay with cream (and may have a faint dorsal as a result of countershading)is what i was told by the dna testing facility.
if you look at the filly (dun) you can see that her mane and tail are black with white on top(frosting) and her dorsal is black, but the cream also affected her legs, she does not have black legs, they are a red brown color.
hope this helps some.
 

AG
Yearling
Username: Tilly

Post Number: 56
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 12:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for all the info everyone, its a great help. Beautiful horses in the photos.
one final question Cathy, if black can mask cream, does that mean that breeding two black horses could techincally produce cremello?
colour genetics is so fascinating but sometimes a bit hard to get your head around!!
 

Kris Moos
Breeding Stock
Username: Kris

Post Number: 769
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 02:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

and the thing is you never know truely WHAT yo will get...because things can pop up and do wierd things at any time!!!
good luck to you!
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 166
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 02:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

AG smokey black horses are black horses with the cream gene. They would have to have at least one dilute parent. So technically you can get a cremello from two black horses, but they would both have to be smokey black.
 

Jet
Neonate
Username: Jet

Post Number: 3
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 02:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

AG--If at all possible, have the horses in question tested for the dilute (cream) genes. For instance, if you are the mare owner, test your mare for the cream gene. If she comes back with no cream gene, you can breed her to ANY stallion without fear of producing a cremello or perlino. If she tests for one copy of the cream gene, you must breed her to a stallion you know doesn't carry the cream gene in order to avoid producing a cremello or perlino.

And yes, if the two "black" horses are in reality smoky black you could get the following colors:

Smoky Black
Palomino
Black
Sorrel
Smoky Cream
Cremello

In order for them to be smoky black, they would each have to have at least one dilute parent. For your own reading may I suggest:

www.doubledilute.com

P.S. It sucks that they won't allow them to be approved. It is just a color, there is nothing abnormal about them. Boo and Hiss on them. I'm glad the AQHA finally wised up to that fact. Good luck with your breeding!
 

Faye Gallagher
Neonate
Username: Cazdan_arabians

Post Number: 5
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Friday, May 19, 2006 - 05:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Adding to response by Jet. Any "breed" which produces "colour" is a culmination of breeds which have been given a registry. For instance, purebred Arabians do not produce "colour such as palomino, buckskin etc" but only solid colours such as black, brown, bay, chestnut with the greying gene allowed.
Faye
 

AG
Yearling
Username: Tilly

Post Number: 57
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Friday, May 19, 2006 - 07:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks so much everyone thats helped a lot
 

Rousseau
Weanling
Username: Epona5

Post Number: 26
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 01:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a question, this 3 yo filly looks a bay, but she has a dorsal stripe, primitive markings, and the white hair around the tail base.

Her sire is a black bay, the dun gene comes from the mother (grey, but she has it), could it be that this filly would have been a dark bay if she didn't have the dun gene ?
http://62.210.160.29/2006/Images2/40506/epsaKMbLP1D22052006193505580403.jpg
 

Megan A Brown
Breeding Stock
Username: Fabmeg

Post Number: 124
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 01:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

She looks like the white is the start of grey, without seeing her legs, I can't say if it's bay or dun -Because the Dun gene isn't mapped, the expression of it is Still not understood.
 

Rousseau
Weanling
Username: Epona5

Post Number: 27
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 02:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, she's definitely not grey, and it looks like the white the duns have, but I have never seen a dark dun horse, so don't know if it exists;
I'm breeding her to a black stallion, so if she trows grulla, we'll know ! but if she doesn't, well, there isn't a genetic marker yet for dun, I think . thanks for answering !
 

Jenn
Breeding Stock
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 159
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 02:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If all the mare has is a dorsal stripe, it could just be countershading. Does she have other dun markings? She could be a bay with countershading.
 

Rousseau
Weanling
Username: Epona5

Post Number: 28
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, May 22, 2006 - 02:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yes, she has, can't see the zebra marks on the legs any more, because her legs are very dark, but they were there when she was little. her head is a little darker than the rest too.
She is a lusitano; most bays have countershading, but usually not that strong, and no white hair at the tail (no white anywhere else in the coat).
 

Jet
Neonate
Username: Jet

Post Number: 6
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 02:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The white in her tail could be rabicano... I think I remember somebody say Lusitanos carried it. The stripe could be countershading. The dun markings as a foal... well many foals have strange markings when they are born... nature's camoflage, I'm told...

I have a bay colt that has white in the exact same spots in his tail and he is sooty/mealy bay, no dun in sight. I suspect rabicano in him.

Or... she could be a dark dun... http://pub34.bravenet.com/photocenter/album.php?img=31664&usernum=2862716619

Ahh... things will be so much easier when they map that pesky dun modifier!!!
 

Kris Moos
Breeding Stock
Username: Kris

Post Number: 776
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 08:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

is her dorsal solid from mane to tail? if not is broken it is possible that it is countershading, i have been told a duns dorsal should be solid not broken at all, it may be smaller or narrower but connected. also hte white on hte tail does look like a rabacano/rabacino (roan) markings.
if it were on her mane too it could
be "frosting" which can happen in a dun.
so i would say if her dorsal is solid she could very well be a dun, nd hte stripes on her legs should be at the top of her black on her legs, but the wither cross, black ear tips, cobwebs on forehead and modeling on neck are also dun factor.
and yes bredding to a black if you get a grulla she is defineately dun! (unless he too is and the black is masking the dun:-) )
 

Linda Santini
Neonate
Username: Linda_s

Post Number: 3
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 24, 2006 - 10:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Check out CPEA site about color genetics they are a wonderful color board with discussions on different genes and dilutes... In order for a horse to be a dun - one parent must be dun (it does not skip a generation) just like roans - one parent must be roan
 

Rousseau
Weanling
Username: Epona5

Post Number: 31
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 12:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

thank you linda, could you give me the link for that list ?
I am almost positive she is a dark dun; yes the dam carries dun, it didn't show because she was grey, but she has produced 7 foals, 2 born dun that turned gray, one I think was grulla, turned gray too, 2 bays, (one dark, one reddish) , and this filly, dark dun ?
her last foal was the same colour the filly was, but turned gray early, so it's difficult to be sure it's not just countershading, because when they lose their baby hair, they turn grey !!

her first daughter is grey too, born dun, and this is her first filly, out of a black sire; I didn't know what colour it was, but I think it was grulle, she's greying out too.
http://62.210.160.29/2005/Images2/30205/epsaKMbLP1D16022005225412.JPG
 

Linda Santini
Nursing Foal
Username: Linda_s

Post Number: 14
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Friday, May 26, 2006 - 12:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Their site is http://members2.boardhost.com/doubledilute/

I have learned so much from the people on this board....



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