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New the genetics... help appreciated!

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » New the genetics... help appreciated! « Previous Next »


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Sonnydeelite
Neonate
Username: Sonnydeelite

Post Number: 1
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 07:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello everyone,
I am new to this genetic thing.. before I guess I did not care. I bought the horse for the horse, not for breeding lol.
I just bought a Paint filly, 2 years old. B.S. Buckskin
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/ajsmommy630/sunnyd50406.jpg

Her sire is Sonny's Painted Investment
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/ajsmommy630/sonny2.jpg
50/50 tobiano

Her dam is Iza Making Due Sugar
cremello tobiano 100% color producer (palomino, buckskin, and grullo)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/ajsmommy630/sugar.jpg (only pic I have so far, I want a better one for my records)

What can I get out of her color wise? The lady I bought her from seems to think I will get color... (as in a Paint, not solid)

Stallion I am breeding her to next year is a Friesian (so black of course)

Could anyone just run through what color combos I could possibly get with a Friesian?? I have been going crazy reading all I can about genetics, but still have not got any real answers to bucksin and black.

Thanks
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 160
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 08:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is my take on this match. First your filly does not look to have any white on her at all. Let me know is she does that doesn't show up in the picture. Even extremely minamally marked tobianos have some white, usually at least one short sock. I don't believe she is carrying the pattern so can not pass it on.
Friesens as far as I know are homozygous black so you will only get black based foals black, smokey black, bay and buckskin. In my opinion they will all be solid.

(Message edited by Cathy on May 17, 2006)
 

Sonnydeelite
Neonate
Username: Sonnydeelite

Post Number: 2
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 08:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually to be honest with you, I wont see her in person until tomorrow LOL, that is the only picture I bought her off from. I am interested in breeding, not for anything special though. I am also going to show her.

I will let you know if she has any white on her anywhere, thanks!

Oh, and now I am confused. On the breeders website they have her dam as a tobiano. But on the pedigree the lady I bought her from, it says she is a tovero. Does that make a difference? *off to look up tovero*

Would it be possible for her to not carry the gene even though both parents do? (again, very new at this sorry)
 

Sonnydeelite
Neonate
Username: Sonnydeelite

Post Number: 3
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 08:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

She has a star :D
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 602
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 08:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

sonnydeelite,
if she is tovero(i have not gone and looked at pics or pedigree) she could carry the overo gene which in turn she could pass the gene. The toby gene you must have toby to pass the toby gene--you must see the pattern. Overo genes can hide in a solid horse so you don't need to see it to get it.
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 161
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 08:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tovero means the horse has tobiano and one of the overo genes, thus tovero. :-)
If neither parent is homozygous for tobiano or one of the overo genes it is very possible to not pass it on and the foal would not carry any paint gene.
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 603
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 08:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hmm, what is interesting is it looks like she might have a "skunk" tail which is a good indicator of a overo gene called the sabino gene. She also appears to have very light almost white in the edges of her main. the photo of her dam is very had to see any color patterns on her face which would also be a indicatior of the overo gene depending where the whit is on her face.
 

Sonnydeelite
Neonate
Username: Sonnydeelite

Post Number: 4
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 08:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From what I see in the photos she does have white in her mane and tail Here are a few other pictures

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/ajsmommy630/right50406.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v43/ajsmommy630/buddies50406.jpg

She is being delievered to me tomorrow on my lunch break, I am taking my camera with me (digital is IN MY PURSE ALREADY!!) and am going to get all sorts of pictures of her so I will post more tomorrow.
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 162
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 08:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kim I have had buckskins for years and almost every one of them had the white on the edge of the mane and tail head. Not another white hair on there bodies. This is from when I had QHs and now with my MFTs.
Isn't the skunk tail from the rabacino gene?
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 604
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 09:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

?? what I have been told and what the paint breeders that I have been around and one is a pretty big operation, with 100 foals a year or more refer to the "skunk" tail with the white on the tail base-refering to the sabino gene.This fellow registers a ton of foals with APHA and they know who he is too, I all have to do is mention the fellows name when I have called regarding pending papers. I have too had buckskins and never had a white tail base.They have had black tails and tailheads. Don't know what the correct answer is.

I would really like to see the pedigree and better pics of the brood mare she's out of. That could make a world of a difference. I tried to find the dam on all pedigree but no listing--not suprising to me

sonnydeelite... boy that other paint sure has a nice booboo on its leg. Is it doing ok ? Sure hope they are doing something with it or that its a past pic and its healed better yet!
 

Sonnydeelite
Neonate
Username: Sonnydeelite

Post Number: 5
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 09:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/iza+makin+due+sugar

Whoever put her on there put "makin" instead of "making" It cannot be changed

I have emailed the breeder (who now, or at one time, owned the sire and dam of my girl) for better photos of the mare (dam)

As for the injury on that leg, I do not know anything about it. those pictures are from the seller (its not my horse!)

(Message edited by sonnydeelite on May 17, 2006)
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 607
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 09:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

she has overo in her, Miss Pottawatomie is a sorrel overo , so she can carry the overo gene. :-)
Kim
 

Heather Kutyba
Breeding Stock
Username: Heatherck11

Post Number: 218
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 09:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your mare is very pretty. However, with a breeding stock mare...your color tendancies are going to be much lower. Granted there are those few b.s's that seem to toss white all over the place....
Once such line that appears to do so, is the Skipa Star line....tons of quarters out there throwing paint babies (out of minimal mares).

With that said, you are likely to get (and I'd have to check on this)...mostly solid color foals arranging from black, buckskin, palomino's, etc from a buckskin/black cross. You've got your creme gene thrown in there, so you do have some real pretty possiblities.
A friend of mine had a palomino mare bred to a black friesian...and got a stunning buckskin colt. They are good crosses.
 

Sonnydeelite
Neonate
Username: Sonnydeelite

Post Number: 6
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 10:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know Baron and Rachelle of Friesian Spirit Horse Farms. Their pal mare was bred to Baron and made a BEAUTIFUL Buckskin baby!! I would not mind that, but arent my chances low of a buckskin baby because she is not a pal? Or am I wrong?
 

Sonnydeelite
Neonate
Username: Sonnydeelite

Post Number: 7
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 10:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What would make her a BS filly? To be non BS she has to have a certain percentage of white on her right? On closer look at that pic, it looks like she COULD have some white on her belly, of course it could just be the view/lighting/tips of hair too.

By the way, this is why I am not breeding her this year (well and her age and training!) I am going to learn all I can about breeding, from genetics to the safety concerns in it before risking her.
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 163
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 10:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sonnydeelite if you want to learn alot about color genetics I would suggest visiting http://wwwequinecolor.com
There is a talk forum on the site that has some of the most knowlegable color people you can talk to.


Kim here is the link to the rabacino section.
http://www.equinecolor.com/rabicano.html
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 608
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 10:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is the pedigree and name from apha. I hope it comes through ok , had some trouble. she is listed without the g in her name as it is listed at all pedigree and she is listed as a tovero :-)
Kim



APHA 4 Generation Pedigree For: IZA MAKIN DUE SUGAR - 2000 CREMELLO Tovero Mare 00578236
Click on any paint horse in the pedigree to bring that horse forward.
This feature is NOT available for Quarter Horses or Thoroughbreds. Print Friendly Page
Sire Side of Pedigree QUINCY FEATURE
DONTCHA LUV QUINCY Q1300371 CHESTNUT
Q2027536 SORREL DONTCHA SKIP ME
DONTCHA LUV TARZAN Q1284260 DUN
00132793 CHESTNUT T TARZAN DUDE
TARZAN'S STAR 00025000 SORREL T
00042368 BAY T KAREN FIRST
DARE TO COMPARE Q0632765 BAY
00293628 PALOMINO X BUD CHUBBY
CHIEF CHUBBY 00015692 PALOMINO T
00048915 SORREL T MISS POTTAWATOMIE
MS DOUBLE CHUBBY 00006277 SORREL O
00085683 PALOMINO T WON OR LOST
MISS CHUBBY WON Q0852912
00056329 SORREL T MYRT GROVES
00019012 PALOMINO T

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dam Side of Pedigree BIG SHOT DUN
BIG SHOT KING Q0016057 DUN
Q0201405 BILLEN'S COOKIE
BIG SHOT SAN Q0102141
Q1998514 SAN SEBASTIAN
MISS SAN BEE Q0060944
Q0181951 JUNE HANNA
MISS TEXAS ROJO SAN Q0078849
Q3329591 RED DUN MR MEYERS
ROJO MEYERS Q0140353 CHESTNUT
Q0570949 GUTHRIE'S GINGER
CANTANA Q0083715 SORREL
Q1607683 BAY KING'S MR MAN
MR MAN'S MAN DEE Q0128147 SORREL
Q0416349 SKIPPER'S DEB
Q0150845 BAY
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 609
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 10:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Cathy, been there before.
Kim
 

Sonnydeelite
Neonate
Username: Sonnydeelite

Post Number: 8
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 10:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So it is possible that I can get color out of her?

Yeah, I would love a spotted Friesian cross but I will take it solid too!! haha

Thank you for finding out whether she was tovero or not, greatly appreciated!!
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 610
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 10:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ya you have a chance , odds ?? well, depening if the mare through a overo gene and its hiding! She is listed as a tovero and her dam is listed as a tovero as well

Your mare
IZA MAKIN DUE SUGAR-tovero mare(your mares granddam)
DARE TO COMPARE-tovero(your mares g. granddam)

then this is your fillys great, great, great granddam and she is overo--MISS POTTAWATOMIE.

You have a chance of getting a overo from her depending how she is bred will determine your chances of a spoted (overo) foal.
 

Heather Kutyba
Breeding Stock
Username: Heatherck11

Post Number: 219
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 11:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ANYTHING is always possible...your best bet to get color from her (since she does not display color) is to breed her to a homozygous stallion.
Breeding to a friesian....I would be sceptical that a resulting foal would express paint markings.
The best way to know where she is genetically is to have her tested. There are many folks on the board that have used UC DAvis for this. They are premier...

The general colors when bred to buckskin/black are : black, bay, & buckskin
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 611
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 11:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cathy, Here is a link to apha's story!
http://www.apha.com/breed/pdf/TheWhiteStuffJan02.pdf

My current fellow is a frame overo with sabino genes in him-its proven, he comes from Jetletto which is a sabino. He too has a skunk tail but no roaning. It is common amoung paint people that I talk too that without the roaning that they look at a skunk tail as being linked to the sabino gene. I think that this mare that sonnydeelite posted would be common to be linked to the sabino gene and not what some call the Rabacino gene. She does not have any coloring on her hips or flanks that is common with what some call rabacino. ??? Then there is the morgans that list what others call rabacino as roan. I think someplace what I read is that it is truely all linked back to the same gene, just different strokes for different folks! (different terms ???)
It depends on what breed of horse people you talk too.
Interesting. :-)
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 612
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 11:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

sonnydeelite,
If you choose to have her tested for anything I would the choice lab of apha and that is Maxxim labs. This is the lab the is authorized to do any testing for the association and there will be test that in the future are mandated for registration papers which will be done through Maxxim. UCS Davis is good , but more costly than others. It cost me 35.00 buck for a Hypp test through Maxxim whereas UCS Davis was 50.00 bucks. Sometimes they charge more just because of who they are. :-)
 

Sonnydeelite
Neonate
Username: Sonnydeelite

Post Number: 9
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 06:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So what kind of test do I need? Is it called a HYPP? I thought that was for a disease? Sorry guys, I meant what I said "I am 100% new to this!!"

Once I get back on my feet from buying her, I would like to get the testing done on her.

I looked for Maxxim labs online and could only find info on UC Davis anyone care to share a link?

You guys are all brilliant, thank you for your insight.
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 613
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 06:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sonnydeelite,

Sorry the topic changed a bit there.
I used them for detecting hypp(which we tested negitive for !). You would only have interest genitic testing for color pattern possibilities.
Here is the link to Maxxam --- I spelled it wrong the first time. They don't list prices, you would have to contact them, but they are cheeper and apha's contracted lab, so this is who they suggest to use for anything else. You don't have to use them.

http://www.maxxam.ca/

Kim
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 165
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 10:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is a lab I have used for my color testing. It is $25.00 a test.

http://www.animalgenetics.us/index.htm
 

Jet
Neonate
Username: Jet

Post Number: 4
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 03:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You could have her tested for LWO to detect if she is carrying the frame overo gene.

You SHOULD have her tested for it if you are ever going to breed her to anything other than a Friesian.

For instance, if you breed her to a Paint, QH, TB, or even to an Appy... you could get a lethal white foal if you mare is frame and the stallion is too! There is a 25% chance of producing a lethal white with each breeding betwen two frame overo carriers. A lethal white foal is born all white and dies shortly after birth from complications due to an incomplete or malformed intestinal tract. This is the reason there are no homozygous frame overos... they all die.

You could also have your mare tested for sabino1. There are a few different types of sabino, but there is only a test for one type of it so far. I don't really feel that your filly is carrying sabino, because even minimally marked ones usually have some white on the legs. Check her chin and see if there is white on her chin. If there is not, I wouldn't even waste the money on the sabino1 test.

What can you get out of a cross with a Friesian? Well, I think the person who sold you this horse is either uneducated about the pinto patterns, or was just trying to sell you a horse by fibbing about color possibilities. You will most likely not get a pinto, unless the frame gene is there and it pops up. The colors you can get are:

Buckskin
Smoky Black
Palomino
Black
Bay
Sorrel

To get a better determination, you could have your filly tested for Red and Agouti. That would tell us more about what she could produce when bred to certain colors.

I have contacted Animal Genetics (the one Cathy mentioned) via e-mail before regarding color questions and have found them to be very helpful. They are also the cheapest out there! Good luck!
 

Susan Lea
Neonate
Username: Brandysgrandma

Post Number: 3
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 18, 2006 - 06:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.doubledilute.com/color-chart.htm

Try this link. It has a VERY helpful chart in dealing with the cream gene (which your buckskin mare has one of), the agouti gene (she also has at least one of those--that's what makes her a buckskin), and black. It won't really help with the paint question. I bred my hetereozygous black TWH mare (she has one red and one black gene) to a cremello TWH stallion with 2 agouti genes--so I would be sure he'd pass one of them on to her and I would be guaranteed either a buckskin or palomino. Sure enough, I got a gorgeous buckskin filly last month! This site was SO helpful to me in understanding color genetics; it seems confusing at first but is really lots of fun. My family got tired of me lecturing on it! :-)



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