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What + what can = a buckskin?

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » What + what can = a buckskin? « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Jennifer
Neonate
Username: Kidchaser5

Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 04, 2006 - 10:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I looked all over for a color chart, but couldn't find one. Really, I want to know if a grullo and a palomino can produce a buckskin?
 

Danielle Roosen-Runge
Yearling
Username: Rolling_hills_quarter_horses

Post Number: 92
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 03:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes they can... the dilute gene of the Palomino can create a buckskin.
 

Lori aka " Raven"
Breeding Stock
Username: Raven

Post Number: 199
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 06:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is some links to color charts:

http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/service/horse/coatcolortable.html

http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/~lvmillon/coatclr.html

http://www.cinderellastables.com/color_crosses.htm

http://www.doubledilute.com/color-chart.htm

http://www.equinecolor.com/

Hope they help.
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 121
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 10:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jennifer a Grullo is a black horse with the dun gene. The palomino has the cream gene, so we know you have two to of the 3 genes nessecary to create buckskin. What you would have to know is if the palomino carried the agouti gene. If so you can get buckskin.
 

Jennifer
Neonate
Username: Kidchaser5

Post Number: 4
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 10:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are some pics of Lucius(Jags Dejablu Illusion)

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58/kidchaser5/luciusonmylap.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58/kidchaser5/luciusoneweek.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58/kidchaser5/luciusexcited.jpg
 

Jennifer
Neonate
Username: Kidchaser5

Post Number: 5
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 10:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Raven, I didn't have a couple of those sites! Yes, they helped!
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58/kidchaser5/jenspics064.jpg
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a58/kidchaser5/jenspics012.jpg

Here are a couple more pics of him(and his mom)
 

Heather Kutyba
Breeding Stock
Username: Heatherck11

Post Number: 170
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 11:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jennifer,
Ok, hmmm. If you didn't have the genetic testing from UC Davis...
Considering that he comes from dilution color lines, I'd swear on any given day that your colt is a cremello. However, I can't get a close up look at him by the pics, and I'm not sure what color his eyes are.
He sure looks like a cremello. I'd have to do some research to see if that is even a possible color combination. But, he looks the farthest from a buckskin that I've ever seen!
In the same respect, UC Davis is renouned for their work. I'd be more likely to tell you to call them....send them pictures of sire, dam, and your colt....and request another test.
 

Jennifer
Neonate
Username: Kidchaser5

Post Number: 7
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 11:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heather,

I did get him teseted at UC Davis. I thought he was a cremello too, except for the sabino spots on the skin! But the results came back, and he is a genetic buckskin!!!!! WEIRD, HUH? Oh, and he does have two blue eyes!
 

Heather Kutyba
Breeding Stock
Username: Heatherck11

Post Number: 174
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 11:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the world of UC Davis. Like I said, if you hadn't had it....I would have swore otherwise...but you DO! I'm still a bit sceptical, but would always accept what they say....but would send the pics and go over this with them "just in case".
Jennifer, you have certainly brought something very interesting to the table!!!!! Talk about mind boggling!
 

Jennifer
Neonate
Username: Kidchaser5

Post Number: 8
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 06, 2006 - 05:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I did send pictures to them with the hairs, per their request, so they are completely aware that he is all white!

I guess it's not the usual thing to see, but the way she explained it did seem to make sense. Genetically, he has to be a color! I think it would be even more rare for him to come out all white, and TEST WHITE! I sure am learning alot about genetics with this boy! I mean not that a white horse is unusual, but with his lineage, it would be! Ya know what I mean?

His dam is a grullo(sabino/overo), and on her papers is alot of blacks and grullos.

His sire is a palomino/overo(splashed,minimal white), and on his papers are alot of chestnuts and palominos.

There are other colors there too, but BOTH parents have minimal white, so he really should have alot of color no matter what! The breeder thought he was a lethal white when he was born!

That is the only test I haven't done, but if I decide to keep him a stud, I will do it! That's another thing UC Davis said. LWO could contribute to his color as well! I don't know if she meant if he was positive or not, but it could be a contributing factor!

Definitely confusing and fascinating at the same time, these genetics can be!
 

Elena Vieira
Yearling
Username: Opheliaimmorttal

Post Number: 100
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 11:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

a red dun and cremello can make a buckskin or a bay and cremello.
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 129
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 08:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Elena while you're correct about the bay and cremello being able to create a buckskin the other combination can not. Red dun and cremello are both red horses. Buckskin requires a black gene and neither of those have a black gene.
 

Jennifer
Nursing Foal
Username: Kidchaser5

Post Number: 11
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 08:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello all,

I got the information back from UC Davis, and my horse is a genetic buckskin! It's really neat to at least know what color he is! Being all white, it's been the question of the hour! So at least I know if I kept him intact, what color he genetically is! Thanks all!
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 130
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, April 24, 2006 - 10:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jennifer good news!!! Isn't it exciting to finally know?
 

anita howard
Weanling
Username: Mofoxtrottr

Post Number: 39
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 06:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

sorrell + cremello = Palomino
bay + cremello = Buckskin
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 131
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 09:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

bay + cremello= buckskin sometimes.
 

Kris Moos
Breeding Stock
Username: Kris

Post Number: 699
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 27, 2006 - 04:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

dun (but carries a cream gene) + chestnut = buckskin
 

Megan A Brown
Yearling
Username: Fabmeg

Post Number: 52
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 01:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dun carring a cream gene, from my experience looks verry diffrent from dun that does not carry a cream gene.
 

Kris Moos
Breeding Stock
Username: Kris

Post Number: 707
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 02:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

well the dun i bred to is a golden black point/zebra AQHA dun, but he obviously carries the cream gene because i have a bay roan mare that gave me a buttermilk buckdkin(by dna) dun roan, and now my chestnut arab mare with same stallion gave me a real light buckskin...so he has to pass on a cream gene! althouh he himself doesnt really appear to be buttermilk/cream.
i cant explain...just happened...she has not had him dna for color to see if he is really a buckskin dun, but he almost has to be. he throws buckskin or duns a good 90% of the time regardless of the color he was bred to...in the last two years only one that was not, and it was a sorrel foal from a sorrel mare.
stallion[IMG]http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/krismoos/100_5326.jpg[/IMG]
this years foal ("quarab") and his arabian mom[IMG]http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/krismoos/101_7068.jpg[/IMG]
this is last years AQHA foal with her mom in hte far background.
[IMG]http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e222/krismoos/101_6981.jpg[/IMG]
 

Megan A Brown
Yearling
Username: Fabmeg

Post Number: 53
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 03:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I see the cream in him, but most of my mares are dun, or dun with cream. Though they haven't been DNA typed, I know this mare is Just dun http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j49/fabmeg/Sparkle.jpg
Where as this mare is dun with a cream http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j49/fabmeg/dream.jpg.
 

melissa
Breeding Stock
Username: Mbgirl

Post Number: 192
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 03:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello,
My friend breed her black and white tobiano mare to a palomino and white tobiano stud, it produce a buckskin and white tobiano.
melissa
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 576
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 07:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I could get "buckskins" out of my red dun overo(with zebra markings) bred to my gray xqh mare, never had the mare typed for color as she was pretty grey from the get go. Would guess that she was of a black base.
 

Rousseau
Nursing Foal
Username: Epona5

Post Number: 18
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 04:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

while we are on this topic, I have 2 fillies from the same breeding;

Mom is grey, probably homozygous for grey (had 4 greys out of 4 foals although that's no proof 3 with coloured father, 1 with heterozygous grey), she was born bay dun, with zebra markings, she's hetero for agouti, since she had a black foal (greying).

Dad is black, heterozygous for black with a cream gene (he has produced at least 1 cremello that I know of).

Now, 1st baby was born like this :

http://62.210.160.29/2005/Images2/30205/epsaKMbLP1D16022005225412.JPG

a few month later, she was like this :

http://62.210.160.29/2006/Images2/40406/epsaKMbLP1D2904200610562311532.jpg

my guess is black with dun and cream, what do you think ?
unfortunately, she is greying out, so don't know what it would have been.

second filly was very dark bay, with zebra markings, and greying out too, although very slowly, I was thinking maybe blak with dun but without cream ? but she's not a grullo.
http://62.210.160.29/2005/Images2/10505/epsaKMbLP1D01052005215346659576.jpg

she's darker now; don't know how she could carry dun and still be so dark ?

they are lusitanos,

thank you !
 

Heather Kutyba
Breeding Stock
Username: Heatherck11

Post Number: 196
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 11:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From the pics, the first filly looks like she's a grulla...does she have a dorsal strip?
 

Rousseau
Nursing Foal
Username: Epona5

Post Number: 19
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 30, 2006 - 02:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

oh yes, she has, all my foals have, except the one that is born black, and that one, at one year old is grey with white mane, usually mane stays black, so I suppose he is the only one without the dun gene !
 

Jennifer
Nursing Foal
Username: Kidchaser5

Post Number: 12
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 12:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

GUESS WHAT?? Yesterday I was brushing Lucius out, and I found BLACK hairs in his forelock that weren't there before! At first I thought it might just be dirt, but no, definitely black hairs!! Well, that just makes the fact that he's a genetic buckskin a little more believable since he's all white!

I wonder if I can expect to see more color from him in the future? I'm guessing probably in his mane and tail, but maybe elsewhere too? Very interesting. I'll send pics soon.
 

Elena Vieira
Breeding Stock
Username: Opheliaimmorttal

Post Number: 110
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 11:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry that what i wrote was wrong! I bred my red dun mare to a cremello and the color chart/breeder told me 50% palomino/buckskin. I got a palomino!
 

Megan A Brown
Yearling
Username: Fabmeg

Post Number: 60
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 12:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jennifer I know with the roan and rabisco colts I have their color comes and goes. One colt was born solid red, shed his foal coat and had like two white hairs in his tail, as a yearling he has a total skunk butt and roan in his flanks. I don't have any experience with paints but wouldn't be super if he grew a nice little color spot somewhere on his back or withers. If it was black you’d know he is dun!! Seriously, Lucius entertains me; I have way to much fun speculating about what he might be
 

Jennifer
Nursing Foal
Username: Kidchaser5

Post Number: 14
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, May 05, 2006 - 04:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, I think it's cool that he's all white, but at the same time, I wish he would get SOME kind of color somewhere to show me for sure! Either way, I love him!
 

Lori
Neonate
Username: Shstables

Post Number: 9
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Monday, May 08, 2006 - 08:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jennifer that baby of yours is really neat. Congrads on him. I would love to see "timeline" pictures of him as he ages. I have a friend who did that with her baby and it was really neat.

For all of you color gurus - Is maximal sabino associated in any way with the lethal white?
 

Jennifer
Nursing Foal
Username: Kidchaser5

Post Number: 15
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2006 - 12:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not a color-guru, but I'm almost positive that it is only(hate to use that word) the overo X overo that produces lethal white foals. The sabino gene is separate from the overo gene.
 

Megan A Brown
Breeding Stock
Username: Fabmeg

Post Number: 101
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2006 - 12:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes sabino is separate from the overo gene but unless you have the horse DNA tested there is still a possibility that the horse may be a Lethal white carrier. Minimal overo who don't even look overo can be carriers, that is why you can even some times see lethal white in QHs. It is usually associated with the ovetro coat pattern but not all overo are lethal white carriers, so coat pattern may not be indicative of LW status at all. It is still being studied.
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 148
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 09, 2006 - 06:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually sabino is an overo gene. :-)
Sabino, splash and frame are all lumped together under overo. It is the frame gene that is the carrier of the LW gene. Some genetisits even believe that all frame horses carry the gene no matter how minimally marked.
 

Megan A Brown
Breeding Stock
Username: Fabmeg

Post Number: 109
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 03:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From what I have read in genetic journals, not specify equine mind you, the thought is that the Sabino phenotype is more closely related to the Roan gene than it is to the frame overo gene. Rabisco may well be an intermediate mutation that may one day allow the mapping of the roan gene. I realize that the two traditonal genotypes are tabino and overo. Up until this point no one has the bible on paint horse genetics. Dr. Phillip Sponenberg's 1996 study that most people get their information on color genetics from was inconclusive regarding the Sabino phenotype. What I meant above is that Sabino is a distinct morphology from the frame overo morphology that is Not expressed in the same manner, and therefore may be it's own gene or at least it's own allele in the mendellion sense.
As I said no one has the Horse genome just yet, but UC DAVIS is the curent leader.
Here is the website where UC Davis where they tell you about the LWO test and indicate that the lethal white gene is separate from the frame overo
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/CEH/HR20-3lethal.html
and to quote from this link
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/horse/lethalwo.htm
A mutation has recently been discovered that produces one type of sabino pattern. It has been named Sabino1 as it is not present in all sabino-patterned horses. More mutations will probably be identified that account for other sabino patterns.
Horses with 2 copies of the Sabino1 gene, are at least 90% white and are referred to as Sabino-white.

That test shows up under Lucius' results from UC Davis as Sabino 1: N/SB1 meinging eventhough he only has one copy of the SABINO1 GENE he has a maximum expression of it. This pariticular sabino gene is not respocible for all sabino coat patterns( probably not the Clydesdales and Arabians) but it does appear to be common in the Paint horse registry.
Any geneticist that still believes all frame horses are carriers has been on another planet for at least the last five years.

(Message edited by FABmeg on May 11, 2006)
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 151
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 10:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I read the USDavis site you posted and I couldn't find anywhere that it says the frame gene and LW gene are seperate.
In Sponenbergs 2003 edition he states that the frame allele is responsible for the production of lethal white foals. He goes on to say if a frame horse is mated to a nonspotted horse and the match produces a lethal white the nonspotted parent in carrying but not expressing the frame gene.
This statement is from the Animal genetics testing web site. "Lethal White Overo (LWO) syndrome occurs when a horse is homozygous (OO) for the frame overo gene."

This is just one of the reasons for my statement that it is now believed that all frame horses are LW carriers. I haven't been able to find any recent research or genetic sites that state anything else.
 

Megan A Brown
Breeding Stock
Username: Fabmeg

Post Number: 116
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 05:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Not all overos are carriers and some of the other spotting patterns and solid Paints can also carry the lethal white gene."
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/CEH/HR20-3lethal.html
Frame Overo is a coat pattern and therefore it is a Phenotypic trait not a genotipic one, it is true that many (most) phenotypic overo horses are LWO carriers but not all Overos are LWO carriers, and there are horse who exhibit no overo characteristics who are lethal white carriers.
http://www.bates.edu/summit-abstracts-2004.xml
on this site the 2004 study indicates that
"One anomaly associated with LWFS is the lower incidence of reported LWFS foals than predicted by the genetic model. Santschi et al. proposes that modifier genes are the source of this variance."
Which would be evidence that the LWO is not the only gene responsible for the coat pattern. So any horse that has the LWO gene can have a LWO foal, but the FRAME OVERO coat pattern is not indicative, because the LWO gene has variable penetrance.

There are some websites out there that still say that the homozygous roan is lethal!



(Message edited by FABmeg on May 12, 2006)
 

Sachiko
Neonate
Username: T_ontheleftcheek

Post Number: 1
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 10:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello all! I new to the forum but i was talkibg to a Paint breeder last night and she told me that you can get Buckskin from a chestnut X perlino. I couls be wrong but I thought it was 100% of the time.

Sachi
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 152
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 11:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Meagan I don't think we are talking about the same thing. As I stated before there are 3 patterns called overo( only in the US by the way). Splash, sabino, and frame. Splash and sabino are not the carriers of the LW gene. It is the frame gene that is the carrier. In all the cases you linked they are all using the term overo not frame.

With that said what you are quoting is correct. Not all overos carry the LW gene. It is all the frame horses that do.
Sachiko you are correct you can get a buckskin from a chestnut X perlino mating.

(Message edited by cathy on May 14, 2006)

(Message edited by Cathy on May 14, 2006)
 

Megan A Brown
Breeding Stock
Username: Fabmeg

Post Number: 117
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 14, 2006 - 02:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is from the university of Wisconsin study, The Lys118 is the gene that they refer to as O on the UC Davis site
"Of all frame and frame-blend overos tested in the study reported here, 96% possessed the Lys118 allele, strongly supporting the conclusion that in the heterozygous state, the Ile118Lys EDNRB mutation commonly causes the frame phenotype."
96% is not 100% of the Frame overos have the gene
"In addition to the nonframe heterozygotes, there are a few horses of apparent frame phenotype (5% of frame overos)
that do not carry the Lys118 allele."
You are making generalizations about coat patterns that have not been supported by the scientific, or veterinary medical community.
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 154
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 02:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Among experienced horse color researchers/breeders, it is known that patterns may mimic each other. All horses who display a pattern that has characteristics of frame overo are not necessarily frame overo."

I quess we are going to have to disagree on this one. :-)
 

Megan A Brown
Breeding Stock
Username: Fabmeg

Post Number: 118
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, May 15, 2006 - 10:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree there are multiple genes that contribute to create the frame overo pattern only one causes the Lethal white foals. You can't equate genes with coat pattern, which was my point to begin with.
Buy the way I saw a horse advertised today, frame overo buy registration, non LW. I didn't see a website but I'll check next time I'm at Big R.
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 156
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 16, 2006 - 12:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Megan I would love to see the site. :-)



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