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Gray from Non-Gray Parents

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » Gray from Non-Gray Parents « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Tammy Bills
Neonate
Username: Ontquarterhorses

Post Number: 1
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 12:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a gray colt from a bay stud and a buckskin mare. The mare has produced other gray foals. AQHA argues everytime to register her babies. As far as I know, it is impossible to have a gray baby unless one of the parents is gray, so how is this possible? The dam's sire is gray, and he is known to throw interesting colors. He throws duns, buckskins, palominos, grays etc, but sometimes they don't all seem to make sense. Has anyone else ever heard of a baby coming from two non gray parents?
 

E Watkins
Yearling
Username: Evie

Post Number: 76
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 02:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tammy- could it be that your mare does have the white hair in her coat ( the graying ) and it not be noticable because of her light coloring? we have a palomino filly out of a black mare and a gray stallion, the older she gets ( and she's 4 now ) the more we notice the white coming into her coat. I think it's a matter of time before we see her produce a gray foal, and I believe by the time she's older, she could very well be gray or at least mostly gray.
 

Rousseau
Neonate
Username: Epona5

Post Number: 4
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 04:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

exactly, your mare must be grey, sometimes it doesn't show before a few years, but you should notice at least a few white hairs disseminated in her coat, everywhere.
 

E Watkins
Yearling
Username: Evie

Post Number: 85
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 12:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

She has them, but to the casual observer, she appears to be a golden palomino at the age of 4..I bet this summer she'll gray out even more though.
 

melissa
Yearling
Username: Mbgirl

Post Number: 88
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 02:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello,
Our mini stud and filly were both born sorrel and turned gray. www.photobucket.com/albums/e329/MBhorses
The minis were both sorrel with white hairs around the eyes and nose area. Does your horse have white hairs?I was told that most gray are both another color and turn gray.Their names are stud muffin the gray and moose on the site on the second page on the site. I wish I could email you a picture of them when they were born, but I just have pictures the previous owner came me.
I was told that to have a gray one of the parents has to be a gray, but who knows.
take care,
melissa
 

E Watkins
Yearling
Username: Evie

Post Number: 90
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 02:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa, that is what I've been told as well, but I think our palomino could produce grays or babies that would gray eventually. How do you register a horse like that though?? she's palomino now, but I'd just bet eventually she won't be. Her sire was gray and her dam black, she took the red gene from her sire (who was sorrel before graying out) and the creme gene from here dam. Interesting for color combos in the future.
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 340
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 03:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

E Watkins,
Been there done that. Thinking a baby was a solid at birth, no signs of grey . You just register them that color and then do a color change when they get older. Not expensive to do either. And it is advisable to keep the colors on the papers correct seeing that you could sell a baby and have it change color down the road and the association would say well, the sire or dam is not grey so how can this horse have turned grey. I had it happen to me. A filly that did not have a spec of grey on her and greyed out , I never changed it ...duh. and then had one of her babys be grey right away. Before the association would do the new babys papers, I had to submit changes on the mare,that greyed out that was out of a grey stallion....

Hope I made sense!

Kim
 

E Watkins
Yearling
Username: Evie

Post Number: 91
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 03:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't doubt they will have issue with it when it happens, we just got the palomino changed this year from "dun" (which she never was, but that was what was on her papers when we bought her as a foal) to palomino. Who knows what QH will say when we want to change it again..lol, I can see them requiring a 2nd DNA sample.

My dark colored filly (she looks smokey black to me) is out of that same "black mare" who is actually registered as a chestnut but has produced at least 3 palomino babies out of gray stallion so she HAS to carry the creme gene. The dark filly I speak of is registered as brown, she's bred to a sorrel, watch her throw a palomino and I'll have a REAL paperwork nightmare..lol
 

Kris Moos
Breeding Stock
Username: Kris

Post Number: 163
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 08:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

E-soes your palomino have a dorsal stripe or leg bars? if so it would be a dun, and years ago a dun was a dun whether red or standard.
That is funny that AQHA qould register something as a dun that was not because half the time when you want to register a dun they argue with you...(like my filly ive posted on new baby photos, I had to send dna and lots of pics to get her registered as a dun...and she is as obvious as anything!!!)
it will be interesting to see what your combo gives you...
 

Tammy Bills
Neonate
Username: Ontquarterhorses

Post Number: 2
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 09:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, this baby is truely gray, and the dam is truely buckskin and the sire is truely a bay. AQHA has argued everytime they register one of the dam's gray babies. They have here DNA on file. No gray on the dam. Not turning gray, and she is 9 yrs old. However, her sire is gray.
As far as the one talking about the smokey black, I also had a smokey black mare that threw a buckskin baby, I had no problems with AQHA. Black is a dominant gene and covers the creme, as long as somewhere in the blacks lines there is a creme, they don't give you any problems.
 

E Watkins
Yearling
Username: Evie

Post Number: 93
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 10:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kris- she has no dorsal stripe, no leg barring, how in the world the folks came up with her being dun I'll never know. She was only 4 months old when we bought her, but I will say the breeder sometimes is a little off on his colors when he registers his foals. (she's not the first we've bought from him, he has good horses.) I have her photo on my computer, I'll see if I can remember how to put it on the photobucket so you can see her.

Tammy- interesting..it's good to give AQHA something to think about now and then..lol. Let them earn that $$ for those fees.. The problem with my mare is she's registered as brown, so if she throws a palomino baby, they'll question it I bet.
 

Kris Moos
Breeding Stock
Username: Kris

Post Number: 168
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 11:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

that is intersting, because like I said i had to argue having my obviously dun filly as a dun.
good luck with registration if you get a palomino! hopefully you do just to make them work!!!
 

E Watkins
Yearling
Username: Evie

Post Number: 96
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 01:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'll probably have to do a DNA on the foal if it comes out anything but sorrel or bay, and chances are, it will be a red based foal, but with this line of mares, there always seem to be surprises. Hopefully, we'll get to see it soon, whatever color it comes out!
 

Jenn
Breeding Stock
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 113
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 02:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The problem with the registries is that they go by phenotype (appearance) instead of genotype (genetic make up). Tammy's mare may eventually go gray, however it is unusual that she hasn't started graying yet. It might be worthwhile to have her genetically tested for the gray gene just so that you have an official paper to wave at the folks at AQHA. I have a gray APHA mare that is expecting her first foal this spring and (to my shame) she is still registered as black. I am planning on updating her info when I register her foal. Here is an interesting page with info on gray. http://www.equinecolor.com/grey.html. Also Tammy, AQHA has her DNA on file, but they do not "read" the genetic make-up (ex- color genes). They only use it for parental verification of foals when the need arises. I think that if I were you and AQHA gives a hard time registering foals I would be tempted to just get genetic testing done for the gray gene. UC Davis does genetic testing.http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/

As for the dun problems, I have heard of horses incorrectly being registered as duns before. One reason that I have heard is that some foals are born with a dorsal stripe that will disapear when they shed out. It is believed to be "natural camoflauge (spl?)" like the spots on a fawns (baby deer) back.
 

E Watkins
Yearling
Username: Evie

Post Number: 99
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 02:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jenn- that is an interesting site about the "grey" modifier. One of the stallions we used last year was registered as a red roan (incorrectly I believe) IMHO I believe he was really a rose grey. However, neither of his parents were registered gray either, his sire was registered as a red roan. I'll be very curious to see what color our foals are this spring out of him. (and likely arguing with my husband as to what color we should register them as..lol)
 

Jenn
Breeding Stock
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 115
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 03:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is a side note that may be of interest. The gray mare that we have (Quincys Miss Burtee is her registered name, Sequel is her barn name. Here is a picture http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e284/JennsPaints/Mares/31430021.jpg) is 7 yrs and still registered as black, and on her papers her sire is also registered as black, but when you look at APHA's website he has now been changed to gray. I would not be surprised if the stallion you mention is actually gray because I almost changed Sequels color to blue roan. I have heard that most horses gray on their face and around their eyes first, Sequel started graying on her sides which left her head and legs darker like a blue roan for a couple of years. She was pitch black until she was 6 months old. If genetic testing for color was every done on all horses registered, I wouldn't be surprised if 10-25% of horses were registered the wrong color. Also, the limited range of colors that horses can be registered as can cause a lot of confusion.

Good luck with your foals Evie.
 

E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Evie

Post Number: 102
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 03:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think you would likely be correct on your estimation of the number registered incorrectly. I have two "true roans" and I tried to explain the difference in my hubby's stallion and them to him but he's a little old and stubborn..lol. I've decided to let him think what he will. I'll post photos when the foals start coming, watch for the posts and we'll guess the colors! Thanks for the well wishes!

Evie
 

Sara B
Neonate
Username: Countercanter

Post Number: 1
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 05:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

fyi, there is no test for the grey gene. Currently they can test for the base color (black or red), agouti, frame, cream and tobiano. Other tests are in the works.
 

Jenn
Breeding Stock
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 119
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 07:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Sara. I did not know that gray couldn't be tested for. You learn something new every day.
 

delia Kramer
Nursing Foal
Username: Delia

Post Number: 19
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Sunday, November 05, 2006 - 01:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have an Andalusian mare that looked Dun until she turned 10. By 12 was totally grey. It was that fast. Check her tail and see if she has just a few silver hairs. Her 06 filly is a blk/bay. And going to stay a bay.



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