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Buckskin/Grulla Mare - What will the foal be?

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » Buckskin/Grulla Mare - What will the foal be? « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Sam Sisson
Neonate
Username: Victorian_principle

Post Number: 1
Registered: 07-2011
Posted on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 05:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey everyone... I just signed up here so I'll start off by saying, my name is Sam!

My mare Annie is going to foal any day now... and everyone is anxious to see what the foal looks like. Here is the background info on my mare, and the stallion.

Annie is my QH mare and she is either a grullo (black with dun gene)or a super dark buckskin with gold. She has the dorsal stripe and is chocolate in colour. She is registered as a buckskin... not 100% sure about her colouring though. Here is her picture :-) http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d132/dudesam/a6.jpg She was born grey, and if it's needed I can upload one of her then to determine her true colouring.

The sire, is a VERY white paint. He is a Paint/Hano/Draft cross and does not produce paint foals every time as one grey mare had a chestnut foal, and all the other mares he has been bred to were paints.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d132/dudesam/jig.jpg

So basically to wrap this whole thing up, could anyone tell me if my mare is a buckskin? I've had a ton of people tell me all kinds of colours... some I don't even think exist. And what the foal could be from genetics. Hopefully there is enough information given for you to tell. If not let me know and I will do my best to get more information :-)

Thanks so much in advance!
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 4004
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Friday, July 15, 2011 - 10:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

She looks to me like a sooty buckskin....was she born this color?
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii281/kdgilger/misty2011foal/DSC01742.jpg
If so, she's probably a buckskin
 

Sam Sisson
Neonate
Username: Victorian_principle

Post Number: 2
Registered: 07-2011
Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2011 - 10:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d132/dudesam/anniebby.jpg
This is the only picture I have of her, from here papers. Her colouring is a little bit different than the foal you showed me, but I would have to agree now that she is buckskin. Thanks for the reply! :-)
 

Colleen Beck
Weanling
Username: High_valley_gypsy

Post Number: 22
Registered: 04-2011
Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2011 - 10:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just an off the wall question: I know that cream and agouti on a black will make a buckskin. Where does the "dun factor" come in?
 

Sam Sisson
Neonate
Username: Victorian_principle

Post Number: 3
Registered: 07-2011
Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2011 - 11:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was just saying that if she was a grulla it's black with the dun factor, but I'm pretty sure now that she's a buckskin. I've never seen a buckskin with her colouring before so I was just asking. :-)
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 4005
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2011 - 11:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've had 2 that same color, and they are both buckskin...that would be my guess. You can always haver her color tested at www.animalgenetics.us they can tell you EXACTLY what she is! :-)
 

Teresa Byersdorf
Neonate
Username: Tbyersdorf

Post Number: 1
Registered: 07-2011
Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2011 - 08:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If she has a dorsal stripe (cant see it in the picture), then she is NOT a buckskin. Duns has the dorsal stripe and leg bars...buckskin does not. Now, she could possibly be a dunskin...meaning she carries the dun AND the buckskin genes. Without knowing what her parents are, there is no way for any of us to say whether she is dunskin or not.
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 4006
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2011 - 11:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Buckskins should not be confused with dun-colored horses, which have the dun dilution gene, not the cream gene. Duns always have primitive markings (shoulder blade stripes, dorsal stripe, zebra stripes on legs, webbing). However, it is possible for a horse to carry both dilution genes; these are called "buckskin duns" or sometimes "dunskins." Also, bay horses without any dun gene may have a faint dorsal stripe, which sometimes is darkened in a buckskin without a dun gene being present. Additional primitive striping beyond just a dorsal stripe is a sure sign of the dun gene."~ Wikipedia
 

Sam Sisson
Neonate
Username: Victorian_principle

Post Number: 4
Registered: 07-2011
Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2011 - 06:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Annie does have the dorsal stripe, which is what made me think she would possibly be a grulla. She doesn't have any of the leg stripes or shoulder blades though. Her sire is a bay and her dam is a buckskin i believe. Thanks everyone for the replies!
:D
 

Teresa Byersdorf
Neonate
Username: Tbyersdorf

Post Number: 2
Registered: 07-2011
Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2011 - 10:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I bet her mother was not a buckskin...but a dun. A buckskin cannot produce a dun...wouldnt have the gene for it. I don't know if a bay and a dun or buckskin can produce a grulla. You would need to know that...and need to know for sure what her mother was. Or...send in her tail hairs to be tested...they can tell you if she is a buckskin or not. I don't think the dun gene has been isolated yet, so they couldnt tell you if she was a dun...but they are finding new color genes all the time and I'm sure the dun gene is on the list ;)
 

Sam Sisson
Neonate
Username: Victorian_principle

Post Number: 5
Registered: 07-2011
Posted on Monday, July 18, 2011 - 09:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm going to ask my aunt who gave me Annie to check her dams papers (they own her still) and maybe then it will be easier to know. Teresa, do you think she looks like a dun?
 

Teresa Byersdorf
Neonate
Username: Tbyersdorf

Post Number: 3
Registered: 07-2011
Posted on Monday, July 18, 2011 - 10:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think she looks grulla, but I don't know the genetics behind grulla as I've never studied that color. And, her papers may be incorrect...they are only as correct as the person was who sent them in :-) If the person who registered her didnt know the difference between dun and buckskin...she could be registered wrong. I've seen that happen alot!

The little bit of dorsal stripe you sometimes see in bays and buckskin is actually called "countershading". It is not a true dorsal stripe. It's generally alot lighter in color and not as wide as a dorsal stripe. My old quarter horse mare had a countershading stripe. She was solid sorrel (red). Some folks told me she carried the dun gene...but she didnt...just the silly confusing countershading stripe ;)
 

Sandy Smith
Breeding Stock
Username: Sandystone

Post Number: 210
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Monday, July 18, 2011 - 03:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sam - it is very easy to have your mare tested. Diana gave you the website and it so worth knowing. I think it is only $50 or so and all you have to do is pull some mane hairs, including the roots. You will know for sure what genes she carries.
 

Sam Sisson
Neonate
Username: Victorian_principle

Post Number: 6
Registered: 07-2011
Posted on Monday, July 18, 2011 - 07:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was just at the barn to check on her, and while I was there I looked at her markings... the 'dorsal stripe' is fairly faint and sounds like what Teresa was talking about. I don't have the spare money to get a test done at the moment but when I do I think it's worth doing. :-)
 

Teresa Byersdorf
Neonate
Username: Tbyersdorf

Post Number: 4
Registered: 07-2011
Posted on Monday, July 18, 2011 - 10:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well...you can eliminate dun if she doesnt have a true dorsal stripe. That just leaves buckskin or grulla! :-) If she is buckskin...then one of her parents had to carry the creme gene. You mentioned her dam...so then have to figure out if her dam was a buckskin or a grulla. If anyone knows the genetics behind grulla..I would like to know....havent a clue what a grulla is genetically or how it's passed on..is it dominate or recessive?

Your mare would be a "smutty" buckskin if she is buckskin. That's when they have the smutty or "sooty" color modifer. It's a color modifer that can confuse things. I have buckskins...and I avoid the smutty gene as I prefer a medium gold buckskin color. I just sold my one mare that was just the perfect shade of buckskin..just golden with the black points. She had a tad bit of smuttiness around her neck, but not real noticeable. She produced a buckskin colt for me this year and he has a bit more smuttyness than his dam, but not much..lots of gold on him too. Buckskin is my favorite color ;)
 

Holly
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Bonny

Post Number: 2425
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2011 - 01:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Theresa... Grulla is dun on a black based horse....
"Grullo is a color of horses in the dun family, characterized by tan-gray or mouse-colored hairs on the body, often with shoulder and dorsal stripes and black barring on the lower legs."
So if the horse doesnt carry dun it cant be grulla. :-)
 

Holly
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Bonny

Post Number: 2426
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2011 - 01:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sam,
the picture isnt very good to determine what color she is IMO. If you could post a few different pictures from her looking at her side view.

However by looking at her I would also guess sooty buckskin. Here is a picture of a sooty buckskin:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/QK1F3472.jpg/220px-QK1F 3472.jpg
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 4007
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2011 - 02:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Grulla IS a dun...it's a black dun.
 

Sam Sisson
Neonate
Username: Victorian_principle

Post Number: 7
Registered: 07-2011
Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2011 - 07:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is the best I can do for side views... this first one has the sunshine right on her coat, so it looks A LOT different than it usually does... but as you can see there aren't any stripes and she looks golden. http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d132/dudesam/annie5.jpg

This is when I first got her from my aunt, I think these two pictures look like two different horses lol http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d132/dudesam/side.jpg

Hope these help... oh and Teresa, do you know if buckskin is a dominant gene?

(Message edited by Victorian Principle on July 19, 2011)
 

Teresa Byersdorf
Neonate
Username: Tbyersdorf

Post Number: 5
Registered: 07-2011
Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2011 - 10:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Creme is the gene responsible for Buckskin, it's is a simple dominate. If the horse passes it on...you got it and it shows. There are always exceptions to the rule! LOL....if you have the creme gene on a black horse that has no other modifiers...then most of the time you cant see the creme gene..but it's there. These horses are called "smokey black". I have a smokey black filly. Most folks would say she is black, but I can tell she has the creme gene. She has some slight tarnish colored hairs in her flanks and around her muzzel. Most noticeable in the summer than winter. She has also been DNA tested to carry the creme gene. Her mother is a golden buckskin and her sire was a red. She has one black gene, one red gene, and one creme gene. If she had gotten the agouti (bay) gene from her dam, she would have been buckskin...but dam didnt pass it on.

Buckskin is the color the creme gene makes on a bay colored horses....it makes palomino on a red horse. It's a simple dominate in that if you get it, it will always work it's properties (sorta, in the case of smokey black). If a horse carries one copy of the cream gene, it has 50% chance of passing it on.

I have my smokey black filly bred to a bay for next years foal. I have 50% chance of buckskin and 50% chance of bay. No other choices since the stud is homozygous for agouti (bay) and black.
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 4008
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2011 - 10:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Given all the "knowns" that we have, with sire and dam color, etc..and just the general look of the mare, I'm sticking with Sooty Buckskin...even more so with the latest pictures. :-)
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 4009
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Tuesday, July 19, 2011 - 10:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you do end up having this mare color tested, please check back in and let us know the result, it's always helpful to others looking to find articles that were actually resolved.
 

Sam Sisson
Neonate
Username: Victorian_principle

Post Number: 10
Registered: 07-2011
Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 04:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, once I have some spare money I will for sure get her tested! Would I be able to tell what her genes are when the foal is born, if it's a solid?
Thanks everyone for the replies! :-)
 

Teresa Byersdorf
Neonate
Username: Tbyersdorf

Post Number: 6
Registered: 07-2011
Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 08:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The foal has a 50% chance of being buckskin...if the mare is buckskin and passes on the creme gene.

So, the mare could be a buckskin and NOT have a buckskin/palomino/smokey black foal. So, if she doesnt have a buckskin foal that doesnt mean she is not herself a buckskin. Just the color gods didnt roll in your favor on that particular breeding.
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 372
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 09:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am going to jump in here and say that your horse is what is currently being called smokey brown or smokey seal. You get the brown base from the At gene instead of the A gene. They are at the same spot. A makes the red bays and light buckskins, while the At gene makes the dark or brown base and the smokey browns. Pet DNA has the patent on the test for At and it is the only test they do, so you wouldn't be able to have her tested for cream at their lab. If you have her tested at another lab she will come back as A as they don't test for the At.
My stallion is a smokey seal or brown which ever you want to use. He is the same color as your mare. Sooty doesn't typically darken a horse all over like yours and mine.
 

Sam Sisson
Nursing Foal
Username: Victorian_principle

Post Number: 11
Registered: 07-2011
Posted on Wednesday, July 20, 2011 - 10:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oooo I would be so happy if Annie's foal was a palomino! :D (but regardless of the foals colour it will be cute)
And Cathy, should I only send her hairs to the Pet DNA then? If I'm going to be forking out a decent chunk of cash to know what she is then I'd like to spend it wisely haha
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 373
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2011 - 12:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sam Pet DNA only tests for brown ( $40.00). If you want to test for cream (which I bleieve she has) you would need to send it to another lab like animal genetics which I use for everything but brown($25.00)
It would depend if you NEED to know for sure, or are just curious. I am a breeder, so want to know for sure to tell buyers what they are getting. If it is just for you I would say pick what you want to know for sure and test for, and inform others what you believe (based on informed knowlege)what ever else you believe to be the true color.
 

Sam Sisson
Nursing Foal
Username: Victorian_principle

Post Number: 12
Registered: 07-2011
Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2011 - 12:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Alright :-) Thanks Cathy!



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