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How to Tell Black from Smokey Black?

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » How to Tell Black from Smokey Black? « Previous Next »


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Jenn Van Horsen
Neonate
Username: Jennuwynn

Post Number: 1
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 07:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I bought a palomino mare to breed my stallion to, because although he is a bay his mom was black and he does throw blacks. I was hoping for a buckskin, smokey black or black foal and the result last spring was a funny grey-looking foal, not the colour I'd associate with going to be black. He also was not the colour of a buckskin baby ... and his coat went from grey to brown to black, he is very black now (and his eyes went from grey to having the fronts of both being blue)
I was wondering if anyone knew, without sending out to a lab of course - if there were ways to tell if a foal is smokey black, or black.

I have heard from some people that they can look just the same, but still carry the cream gene - I dont' care what he carries, I want to know what colour he is!

I am expecting a full sibling this spring, can't wait to see what it looks like this year!

Any ideas?
Oh. Here's a link to his pictures, he is on the front page jumping with his palomino mom, and also is the black with the white face wearing the antlers - he is on foals 2005 in his baby coats.

http://www.freewebs.com/jennuwynnwelsh/index.htm

Thanks!
Jenn :-)

(Message edited by jennuwynn on February 08, 2006)
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 121
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 08:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jenn:

Smokey black horses are usually not quite black, or described as "off black" They are also usually a flat black color. Usually their points are black, but there are differences in the body color that sometimes are missed by a someone who does not know what to look for. Smokies also frequently have hazel eyes.

Hope that helps

Deb
 

Sandy D
Breeding Stock
Username: Sbr_appaloosas

Post Number: 159
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 01:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jenn,
Here are links to pictures of my smokey black colt that was born in 05. He is a miniature. His dam is a silver black and his sire is a buckskin. You can see the color of his eyes... kind of silvery blue. As he got older he turned a color more of bay, but his eyes stayed that same silvery blue color. I never had him tested, but everyone told me he is a smokey black.
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/sheshai/Cloeycoltface.jpg
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/sheshai/Cloeycoltday1sm.jpg
 

Jenn Van Horsen
Neonate
Username: Jennuwynn

Post Number: 6
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 11:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, Debbie, I had been told that smokies *could* look exactly like blacks, but that didn't make sense to me - I mean, yes, carrying a recessive gene maybe for the dilution, but since he was expressing some sort of weird colour I hadn't seen before, I assumed he had to be a buckskin or smokey black at birth, but then I saw some pics of what a buckskin baby should look like, and that was more of a smutty yellowy brown ... with darker areas - nothing like my guy!

Awwwww Sandy D - he's so cute! That's about what colour my boy was born, and his eyes looked the same. His mom is a sabino too, so his eyes started out that same grey and the fronts wents blue of both, but the back parts went browny/dark hazel. His body coat was about that greyish, maybe a tad lighter.
Thanks! Those pics are helpful! (and cute!!)

Thanks for the replies/info. I am now thinking that maybe another foal he produced is a smokey black instead of the deep liver chesnut we thought, because she was born the same year as one of his jet black babies, and you could almost not tell them apart except one was more delicate looking and had a cuter head, lol, she was that same mousy colour and while her brother went black (and he was out of the white/grey mare, he is solid jet black) she went more brown, and had silver hairs on her mane and tail (we called it frosting, lol) and is darked all the time but this year she is 3, and she is a very dark borwn - almost black, but has that little bit of different lightness on her face around the eyes, and her inner ears are almost browny like my colt I was asking about is.
Huh. Anyone know a place for testing, and about how much it costs? I am in Ontario, Canada.

Thanks!!
Jenn :-)
 

Jenn
Yearling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 87
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 12:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is a web page that shows some pictures of various smokey black horses.http://www.doubledilute.com/smokyblack.htm

I think our stud is either smokey black or very dark buckskin. His sire is black and his dam is cremello. Here is a picture of him in the summer. In the winter he is much darker.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e284/JennsPaints/EditedDesktop.jpg

Sandy, your little guy is so cute. Are you sure that he isn't silver black? Here is a web page that shows some examples of the silver gene.
http://www.equinecolor.com/color.html}
 

Jenn
Yearling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 88
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 12:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is a website for UC Davis.http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/ I don't know of anyone in Canada that does the testing. The university of Kentucky also does testing, but I don't know their website.
 

Sandy D
Breeding Stock
Username: Sbr_appaloosas

Post Number: 165
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 01:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jenn,
Ya, I'm pretty sure he isn't a silver black, his mane and tail are jet black. Silvers will have a white or silver mane and tail. His dam is a silver black and she is a dark gunmetal gray with white mane and tail.
I looked at the picture of your stud... are you positive his dam was cremello? He looks like a typical bay to me. He's very pretty though. Have you had any foals by him yet?
 

Jenn
Yearling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 90
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 01:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I really don't know anything about "silver", I just thought he looked gray/silverer than other smokey blacks that I have seen.
As for Boy, I have seen his dam and she is definately cremello. He has 3 full siblings, 2 palominios and 1 grullo...ish (he is lighter and dustier than a usual grullo). I know the breeder, and I do know that he is not bay, and his mane is not black. We are expecting his first foals this spring. I am hoping that this will help to clear up the color question. He is bred to 2 Paints - 1 black and one black based gray. 3 Quarter Horses - 1 seal brown, 1 classic red bay, 1 sooty bay (possibly sooty buckskin, her underbelly is very light. Her sire was buckskin. This is her first foal). It should be an interesting spring.
 

Sandy D
Breeding Stock
Username: Sbr_appaloosas

Post Number: 168
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 12:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jenn,
In the picture your stallion's mane looks black, just a little sun faded.
He just seems to have a lot of red in his coat, but that could be sunbleaching too. I have never seen a buckskin's coat look that reddish...so he could be smoky black. Are his eyes light colored?
If his dam is a cremello, then you know he has to be carrying at least one copy of the cream dilution. With having 5 foals coming from him, you should hopefully be able to know for sure if he is carrying cream.
 

Jenn
Yearling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 93
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 01:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

His eyes are brown, but a lighter shade than normal. He is a registered Paint and he is two days old in the picture on his papers. He was tan body with brown (but not black) mane and tail. He is registered as buckskin. The picture I posted was taken in July and our horses are pastured, not stalled so he was quite sunfaded. Now that it is winter he is quite a dark brown, but still not quite black. He seems to be similar in color to some of the brown colored horses on the "Double Dilute" webpage that I linked earlier.

At this time I don't see genetic testing for color as productive or necessary, I am just puzzeled by his color. Plus, it helps fill the time until the babies start arriving. I have done several sets of Punnett square for possible colors, I have also done the nail test - 3 fillies, 1 colt, and one mare that wouldn't stand still long enough, I didn't have a halter with me and it is hard to get an accurate read when you are trotting after the mare. If we get a double dilute out of the sooty mare, then that will answer that question too. What would a sooty perlino look like anyway?



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