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Black and white tobiano breed to a bay breeding stock paint

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » Black and white tobiano breed to a bay breeding stock paint « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

melissa
Neonate
Username: Mbgirl

Post Number: 1
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, January 20, 2006 - 03:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What color foal could we get from our horses? We breed our black and white tobiano mare(dam black and white tobiano sire black and white tobiano)to our bay breeding stock paint stud(dam palomino and sire is a black and with overo stud)what do you think we could get also what type of paint foal if one? We also breed our mini bay mare to our gray stud what color foal could they have this year?
Thank you alot for you help,
MELISSA
 

Kassie Finley
Yearling
Username: Jkqh

Post Number: 51
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Friday, January 20, 2006 - 05:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From what I understand, if the mare is not homozygous for tobiano or black, you have the possiblity of a black tobiano foal/solid black foal, bay tobiano/solid bay, an if the stud or mare carries the red gene you would have the possibility for a sorrel tobiano/or solid sorrel. But if it is a paint foal it will be Tobiano since that is the gene the mare carries. But there are many possibilites. Those are the ones I can think of off hand. someone else might post and know more about this.
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 228
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, January 20, 2006 - 05:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You would also have a chace of overo or tovero . The bay breeding stock stud you own can carry the overo gene seeing his sire is overo and there for can produce overo. If the mare throws a toby gene and the stallion throws the overo then you will end up with a tovero , very common combonation when breeding a toby and overo together.

On your mini, I know you would have a chance of gray or bay for sure-some depends on what the base color of the gray is , but there are others on the board that could tell you more. :-)
 

melissa
Neonate
Username: Mbgirl

Post Number: 3
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 03:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kassie and Kim
Thank you both for you all help about the color of the foal we might have with my tobiano mare.I would love to get another paint out of this mare.
I will let you all know what she has, she is due April 2006.Do both of you all own horses?Do you all own paints?Thanks Melissa
 

Kassie Finley
Yearling
Username: Jkqh

Post Number: 53
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 04:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa, I have 8 horses, and one of my mares is going to foal in april as well. So we might be on foal watch together I have Quarter Horses, but two of them also have paint papers. They are solid one is a sorrel and the other is our Cremello colt.
 

melissa
Neonate
Username: Mbgirl

Post Number: 6
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 04:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kassie,
I look at your web site you have nice horses. My other question to you is what all shots are you going to give your pregnant mare at 45 days of the pregnant. My vet says we should give EWT, RHINO FLU, STRANGLES, WEST NILE. The west nile and rhino flu worry me. I have heard bad things about giving them to pregnant mares. We have been giving my mare the pneoabort shots at 5, 7 and 9 mos.Did you see my other question about our Appaloosa mare line back dun mare my children were wanting to breed her to our young stud who is a bay and white tobiano stud colt for 2007. What color do you think we would get out of the line back dun appaloosa mare with a bay and white tobiano stud. I have been looking up genetics for sometime. If you know of any good web sites or anyone who does let me know.
Thanks for all you help
MELISSA
 

melissa
Neonate
Username: Mbgirl

Post Number: 7
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 04:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kassie,
I meant what shots are you going to give 45 days before the due day of your mares. Sorry about the mistake earlier.
thank you
melissa
 

Jenn
Weanling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 29
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 07:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kassie, I'm not sure what you mean by "I have Quarter Horses, but two of them also have paint papers." How can you have paint and quarter horse papers on the same horse? Or are they "enrolled" with APHA for breeding?
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 231
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 07:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kassie,
HI, Yes, we do have horses and currrenty we are at a low of 10 horses which are all paint horses. We are currently in the middle of revamping our herd as we had to put our stallion of 14 year to sleep in the fall of 2004. We are excited as we have a up and coming chestnut overo colt that came from Scenic View Ranch in Monona Iowa . Can't wait to see whats to come !

Kim
 

Kassie Finley
Yearling
Username: Jkqh

Post Number: 54
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 07:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I call them all Quarter horses but two of them also have Paint papers, and I do not mean enrolled for breeding. They actually have Paint papers, it does not say Breeding Stock, it says Solid Paint-Bred on the APHA papers. that is on our colts papers and on the filly's papers. And we will be giving EWT Rhino Flu, Strangles, and West Nile. We also give the pneoabort at 5, 7, and 9 months. Our vet also raises Quarter Horses and they have some very nice horses, but this is what they do with their horses. I have not had a problem with the shots at all, and our vet has not said anything about a problem with them. They have about 16 foals every year. Melissa about the appy mare, I don't know much about appys so keep that in mind. But I do believe a dun has a dilute gene she could pass on and the Bay has the agouti gene that could be passed on, so I would think you could get a variation of colors there, sorrel, bay, dun, buckskin, palomino, and then they could all get the line back. But to learn more about it here is the site where I get most of my information. http://www.equinecolor.com/color.html

phew. lol. Hope that did not sound to run together lol. I was trying to think of all the questions I was aksed. Sorry if it is hard to understand lol.
 

Jenn
Weanling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 30
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 08:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry Kassie, I had just never heard that they could be double registered and I thought that it was a AQHA rule that they couldn't. They may have changed things since allowing cropouts in AQHA and changing the APHA registration classifications. That has been stuff that I have never had to worry about because our Quarter horses are solid and our Paints are colored. Our AQHA mares are "enrolled" for breeding with APHA.
 

Kassie Finley
Yearling
Username: Jkqh

Post Number: 55
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 08:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know, I thought the same thing. I always thought you could only enter a QH as a breeding stock paint, but when we went to buy these two they where advertised as double registered, when I talked with the people about it I found out that both the parents of these two are also double registered with AQHA and APHA. But this is really odd, the father of the little filly is a minimal overo, and he has AQHA papers. I did not think AQHA would allow a horse that had white other than on the face and legs. This stallion had white on his belly all four legs and a bald face. But he had Quarter horse papers and Paint papers. I thought that was very odd. You can look at my website and look under mares, the filly on that page that has the white face, and four white legs is the one I am talking about. I have a question. I don't know much about the paint gene, so since my filly's father has the overo gene does that mean my filly could carry the gene?
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 232
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 09:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes Kassie your filly could carry the overo gene
 

Kassie Finley
Yearling
Username: Jkqh

Post Number: 57
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 09:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do you know if there is a way you can test to see if she does? Like you can test for the agouti, or creme gene?
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 233
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 09:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

the most common test is for the lethel white gene. I have a post someplace on this board too for the one test , Now I can't remember if its is for the sabino gene or the overo gene... ? I did some research a few months back and now I can't remember what I found out ! I think I was at the University of Kentucky website. ?? sorry ,
 

melissa
Neonate
Username: Mbgirl

Post Number: 9
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 09:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kassie and Kim,
Thank you all for your help about my black and white tobiano mare. Kassie there might be a test for a overo gene. My vet said you can test for homonzygous black or tobiano why not overo. My bay breeding stock paint stud papers where APHA not AQHA. My bay breeding stock had very little white on him. My bay stud had a bald face with min white on the legs. I was told by APHA the horses have to have white somewhere other the their face and legs to a register with APHA. Kassie the AQHA told me that the foals could not be register with AQHA if they had white other then the face or legs. I would like to know how to register with both myself.My mini horses I ask you all about early. My bay mare Cricket dam was chestnut and sire was sorrel. My bay grandparents where chestnut pinto and palomino the moms side. My flea bitten gray stud Stud Muffin dam was Dapple gray and Sire was Flea-bitten gray what colors could they had?Kassie you have some nice horses.Kassie so you think if we breed the appaloosa with the bay and white tobiano stud we could get nice color from them.
Thank you all.
MELISSA
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 234
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 09:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can't believe that I found it !! I knew it was someplace.... here is the link to the university of Kentucky http://www.uky.edu/Ag/VetScience/textpages/epvrl.HTM#services

they can test for the sabino gene which is considered one of the overo genes, but that is as far as its gotton at this point. there are alot of frame overo and this is not been achieved yet if so its not public info !

Melissa i believe that there was a point in time in which there was some double registery going on with apha and aqha. But with aqha finally changes some rules i think that has been done away with. Also with apha the white has to extend past a certian point on the face in order for the facial white(pink skin) to achieve regular registry without having white in other areas.
This is from their website
The white on a horse's face can be a qualifying spot, allowing the animal to be registered in the Regular Registry. However, as with body spots on minimal white horses, face white must meet specific requirements to qualify.
 

Kassie Finley
Yearling
Username: Jkqh

Post Number: 58
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 11:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

kim Thanks for the site. I will check it out. I would love to know if my filly carries the overo. I would like to have the possibility of having a paint.

Melissa, thanks I am glad you like me horses, I know i like them a lot lol. And it is possible to get nice color foals from a dun, since they do carry a dilute gene. Now if they are tobiano or not will depend on the sire, if he passes that on to them or not.

I know it is very odd how these horses I have are double registered but I have both papers. And the sire is an overo and has quarter horse papers, however both of his parents where solid Quarter Horses and the overo just popped up in him so he is considered a cropout and that might be why he has Quarter Horse papers. I just learned that tonight I found some information on him just a little bit ago. His name is Smashingly Dignified. I guess we all learn something new everyday.
 

Jenn
Weanling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 32
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 11:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As of, I think this year (possibly last year) AQHA removed the "White Rule" and cropouts with "paint" markings can be registered, however a note is put on the papers stating that they have the markings and it is an "undesireable trait". Also this year APHA changed its rules and is requiring that to be registered APHA the horse MUST have at least one APHA registered parent. I do believe horses born this spring (bred before the rule change) will not be held to the new rule, but all after will be.
 

melissa
Nursing Foal
Username: Mbgirl

Post Number: 11
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 11:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would like to thank you all for your advice about my horses. I am glad I found this site it has been great help. It is nice to ask other people who have been through this stuff. We can all learn from each other and together we can help others with the same questions later.If you all found more information let me know.
Take care you all
Melissa
 

melissa
Nursing Foal
Username: Mbgirl

Post Number: 13
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 12:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello,
I found this web site. I taught you all would like it. www.stallionsdirect.com/calculations.html
When you put in the due date of your mare it will give you a calculation when she might be due, plus when to give pneo
abort shots 5, 7, 9 mos.I think it is great to have.
 

Jan H. (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 68.45.224.165
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 05:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I really like this one for determining approximate foaling date.

Let me know what you think of it.
http://www.equineestates.com/cgi-bin/foal.cgi
 

melissa
Nursing Foal
Username: Mbgirl

Post Number: 15
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 08:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jan,
Thank you for the web site it was helpful.I found another great web site for foaling date,plus the shots calculation.
www.leunenfarms.com.mareandfoalcare.htm. I mess up early the www.stallionsdirect.com/calculations.html didn't have the calculation of shots sorry.
 

melissa
Nursing Foal
Username: Mbgirl

Post Number: 16
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 08:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am sorry the web site is
www.leunenfarms.com/mareandfoalcare.htm
I put a period not a / mark sorry about that.
 

Jan H (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 68.45.224.165
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 08:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Milissa, Interesting site. Thanks for sharing.
 

melissa
Nursing Foal
Username: Mbgirl

Post Number: 17
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 08:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jan,
I like your web site the best of the calculations of the mare foaling. I have been looking for the development of what the foal looks like each month to show my children. The development chart of the fetus is great pictures to show children without all the bad stuff showing. I think everyone needs to use this site. Thank you again for you help. I will tell my friends here at home about this site.Thank again If you find any more nice sites let me know.
Melissa
 

melissa
Nursing Foal
Username: Mbgirl

Post Number: 18
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Sunday, January 22, 2006 - 08:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am so thankful for finding this site. All of you have been helping me out alot with my questions about my horses. I don't think you can ever learn to much about your horses.
 

melissa
Weanling
Username: Mbgirl

Post Number: 31
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 26, 2006 - 03:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello,
Thank you all for you help.I put my black and white tobiano mare with her colt of 2005 on
www.photobucket.com/albums/e329/MBhorses
This is the mare who is breed to the bay breeding stock paint for this year 2006. This is the mare I ask you all about.
Thanks MELISSA
I will put pictuers of the new foal when she has it.
 

melissa
Weanling
Username: Mbgirl

Post Number: 50
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 06:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Update pictures of Annie pregnant 2006
and Little Man
on www.photobucket.com/albums/e329/MBhorses.
Melissa
 

melissa
Breeding Stock
Username: Mbgirl

Post Number: 145
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 09:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello,
I got back my mare Annie's test back she is homozygous for the tobiano gene. The way I understand the homozygous tobiano gene is she will always have a spotted foal. What do you all thinks about this? We breed her to a solid bay breeding stock paint, before we find out she was homozygous for the tobiano gene. I was told she has a good chance of having a bay tobiano foal only. I think this same mare is homozygous for the black gene as well. The mare was breed to sorrel tobiano last year had a bay tobiano foal. She is due APRIL 2006. I will keep you all posted. I also found out her foal from last year is homozygous for the tobiano gene has well.
THANKS Melissa
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 516
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, March 23, 2006 - 10:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa, what is the solid breeding stock bay out of ? Does it have overo breeding in it ? If it does you could end up with a tovero. You don't need to see the overo pattern to get the overo pattern.

Kim
 

melissa
Breeding Stock
Username: Mbgirl

Post Number: 152
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 02:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kim,
My mare Annie is a black and white homozygous tobiano mare breed to a solid bay breeding stock stud. The mare parents were both tobiano. The stud sire was black and white overo the dam was a palomino.Do I still have a change of a tovero foal?I like all the paints. I am glad to know that my mare will always have paint foals. I am also glad to find out her stud colt from last year is also homozygous for the tobiano gene as well. We were going to sell the stud colt, until we found out this week they are both homozygous for the tobiano gene. When the stud gets older, we can stud him out.
THANKS Melissa
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 519
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, March 24, 2006 - 04:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Melissa, you still have a chance of a tovero with having any overo in the bloodlines makes it possible for the overo gene to come through giving you the overo gene. You even do not need to see color to get color

For example, with two solid colored foundation qh's back in the 1950's produced a loud overo stallion "Painted Robin" which went regular registry APHA.

Kim
 

melissa
Breeding Stock
Username: Mbgirl

Post Number: 200
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 01:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello,
To all you who guess with Annie and Skip. She foaled this morning. She had a bay and white filly. I will try to send pictures later. I am thinking she is a tobiano, but maybe tovero. Could someone help me with this? The filly has solid bay face with white star. The filly has bay in the front of her, bay spot on a back, bay spot on the tail that is it, the other parts are white.She also has one blue eye and one brown eye.
THANKS melissa
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 142
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 02:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa it sounds like she has the tobiano and splash gene. Splash is one of the 3 genes lumped together under overo, so that would make her tovero
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 584
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 04, 2006 - 10:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would have to agree that the filly is probabally tovero. The blue eye is a good indication that there is a overo gene someplace, although it is only a secondary characateristic.
congrats!
Have fun with her
Kim
 

melissa
Breeding Stock
Username: Mbgirl

Post Number: 208
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 06, 2006 - 05:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Everyone,
Here are some pictures of Annie's 2006 filly.We are thinking she is bay and white tobiano.
www.photobucket.com/albums/e329/MBhorses/MBAnnie2006filly
TAKE CARE,
MELISSA
 

Jet
Neonate
Username: Jet

Post Number: 1
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 17, 2006 - 01:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Congrats on your foal. For registration purposes, APHA will only allow you to register the foal as a tobiano--because the parents are a tobiano and a solid. You can have your horses tested for LWO for $25 each. That will tell you if they are carrying the frame overo gene. You should have them tested because if you are breeding two frame overos together without knowing it, you have a 25% chance of getting a lethal white foal which will die shortly after birth. Tobianos and solids can both carry the LWO gene. Good luck with your horses, they are very beautiful!
 

melissa
Breeding Stock
Username: Mbgirl

Post Number: 255
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 04:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello,
UPDATE PICTURES OF THE FOAL.
http://s42.photobucket.com/albums/e329/MBhorses/MBAnnie2006filly/
take care,
MELISSA
 

Jan Owen
Breeding Stock
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 102
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 01, 2006 - 05:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Melissa,

She sure is growing! She is darling!

Jan



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