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Foal color???

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » Foal color??? « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Val
Neonate
Username: Northwoodcolors

Post Number: 1
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 02:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm breeding my black BS paint mare with a grulla overo stud.
What are my chances of getting a grulla foal?
}
 

Cathy
Yearling
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 83
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 04:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Val both horses are black so it just depends on either being homozygous and whether the stud is homozygous or not for dun.
If they are both heterozygous for black you have a 75% chance for a black foal. If one or both are homozygous for black all foals will be black.
If the stud is hetero for dun 50% of all offspring will be dun. If he is homo for dun 100% will be dun.
So you chance for grulla are 37.5% to 100%
 

Val
Neonate
Username: Northwoodcolors

Post Number: 2
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 04:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Neither one has been tested. I know my mare is out of two colored paints, I believe overo(papers are at home, can't check right now), the stud is out a chestnut/sorrel dam(not sure if solid or colored) and a black/white overo sire. The black/white overo, states that he is homozygous for black, and his foals have been blacks, duns, grullos and bays; but according to your comment, they all should have been black right? Including this grulla stud, or am I mistaken?
 

Cathy
Yearling
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 84
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 06:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Grullo and bay are black horses with a modifying gene.
Grullo is a black horse with the dun gene. (black dun)
Bay is a black horse with an agouti gene.(restricts the black to the points)
What color was the dun foal you mentioned?
 

Val
Neonate
Username: Northwoodcolors

Post Number: 3
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 12, 2006 - 11:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, it's starting to make sense to me now.
Braford's Crazy Horse Ranch Here's the website for the black/white overo. You have to click on the photo album to view pic of his foals. All of the pics just say dun, they don't give an actual color and I can't tell by just looking at the pics.
 

Cathy
Yearling
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 85
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 03:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Val the site doesn't seem to work for me.
 

Val
Neonate
Username: Northwoodcolors

Post Number: 4
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 06:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

www.horsehomepages.com/crazyhorseranch/
Okay, let's try this.
 

Cathy
Yearling
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 86
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, January 13, 2006 - 06:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That worked.
Is Bo the stallion you are breeding to? Am I correct that it is his sire that was homozygous black with the dun foals?
Very nice either way
 

Val
Neonate
Username: Northwoodcolors

Post Number: 5
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 09:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bo is the the homozygous black with dun foals and the sire of the stud that I'm breeding to.
The actual one that I am breeding to is pictured under "BO and his foals", then on page 2, he's Flyboy.
 

Cathy
Yearling
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 88
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 11:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Val very cute baby. To bad there isn't a picture of him now I bet he is stunning.
 

Val
Neonate
Username: Northwoodcolors

Post Number: 6
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 14, 2006 - 01:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sending you a pic.
 

Jenn
Weanling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 21
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 07:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My husband tells me that I am going to be a wreck by spring from anticipation of our arriving foals. It is always exciting but this is the first year that we will be breeding our mares to our own stallion. When we bought Boy (the rest of our horses are mares) I would love to hear what other people think about what color foals we will have arriving this coming spring.

Boy is a choclate brown colored tobiano. Here is a picture of him at 2 years.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e284/JennsPaints/EditedDesktop.jpg
Trying to figure out what color he is started my journey into color genetics. He is registered as buckskin and when he was a baby he was. Then he darkened. I think he is a very dark buckskin. His sire is a black tobiano and his dam is a creamello tobiano. He has 2 full siblings, one is palomino tobiano and the other is a solid grula.

Our Mares
Buckey - dark bay quarter horse - parents buckskin and bay
Denise - seal brown (brown muzzel and inside upper legs)quarter horse - parents gray and sorrel
Baby - lighter bay quarter horse - parents sorrel and black
Sequel - black based gray tobiano - parents black based gray Tob-Overo and black solid
Marty - black tobiano - parents black tob-overo and solid brown

I wish that I had pictures of the mares to attach
but I don't right now. Hopefully I can remedy that in the near future.
 

Val
Neonate
Username: Northwoodcolors

Post Number: 7
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, February 13, 2006 - 11:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Okay I sold my black mare to a friend for a riding horse. So there goes my option of breeding her, but she's offered to me to use either her palomino or bay mare to breed to the grulla overo.
So what now would my colors options be if I would breed:
palimino X grulla overo
bay X grulla overo
 

Jenn
Yearling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 100
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 02:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Val, that is a tough question to answer accuately without more info so this might be confusing, but here it goes....

A Grullo is a black horse with the dun gene, but we don't know if he is homozygous for black or dun (If one of his parents was a red based color sorrel, red dun palomino, etc then he cannot be homo. Unless both his parents were dun he is heterozygous for dun) For the sake of simplicity we will assume he is hetero for dun.

A palomino is homozygous for red and heterozygous cream. If the stud is hetero for black the basic breakdown is that each foal has a 50% chance of getting the black gene, 50% chance of getting cream, and 50% chance of getting dun. So, possible colors are sorrel, palomino, dunalino, red dun, black, smokey black, grullo, and smokey grullo. However, the palomino mare might carry the agouti gene (it cause black color to be confined to the mane, tail, ears and lower legs. Basically turns black into bay. It does nothing on a red based coat color.) If the mare does carry agouti each foal has a 50% chance of recieving it which means that you could also get buckskin, dunskin, bay and dun.

If the stud is homo for black, the foal will be black based so the possibilities are black, smokey black, grullo, and smokey grullo (buckskin, dunskin, bay and dun if the mare carries agouti).

We know the bay mare carries agouti because she is bay, but we don't know if she is hetero for black or agouti. If the bay and the grullo are both hetero for black each foal would have a 75% chance of being black (the other 25% is red), a 50% chance of getting the dun gene, 50% chance of agouti(unless the mare is homozygous for agouti) The possible colors are sorrel, red dun, bay, dun, black and grullo. If one or both of the horses are hetero for black then the possibilities are bay, dun, black and grullo.

If the bay mare or the palomino mare are homo for agouti it will effect any black based color so black, smokey black and grullo would not be options.

If the stud is homo for overo every foal will recieve the overo gene, but if he is hetero for overo, each foal only has a 50% chance of recieving the overo gene.

It is a confusing mix because among the three horses almost all of the common color genes are represented. You have black/red, dun, cream and agouti. I think that is it, but somone may have more to add.
 

Dorthy (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 136.181.195.113
Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 01:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So if a stud is Dun and both of his parents were Dun he is Homo for the Dun gene? Or just possibly?
I am actually getting a Dun stallion and this is very interesting to me. He has tons of Dun and Buckskin in his pedigree. If I go back 5 generations there are 1 palomino, 4 bays, 4 sorrels and 2 roans and the rest are Dun or Buckskin. He threw all Dun and grulla foals last year, none of this years crop are born yet
And wondering if I breed my Palomino mare to him what colors could we get?
 

Jenn
Breeding Stock
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 104
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 05:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If both of the studs parents were dun he might be homo for dun. Dun is a dominant gene, meaning that if a horse carrys the gene it will show (the cream gene on palomino can bleach out gene markings sometimes, same with perlino and cremello When it comes to horses, every rule has at least one exception) for the sake of simplicity right now we will ignore the exceptions. When you breed a heterozygous dun, each of its offspring have a 50% chance of getting the dun gene. What this means is if you breed 2 hetero duns 4 times you should statistically get 1 non dun, 2 hetero duns and 1 homo dun. You say he threw all duns and grullas last year, do you know how many foals he had? If he has had 10 foals out of 10 non dun mares I would say his odds of being homozygous would be very high.

As for the color cross between the dun and palomino, I have a question. Do you know what what color were the dam and sire of the dun? Also has he ever had any foals that were a red based color?
 

Dorthy (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 136.181.195.113
Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 10:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Dun stallion's sire and Dam were both Dun. I only know of foals from last year, he had 7 foals all were Dun or grulla
 

Jenn
Breeding Stock
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 105
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 11:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well Dorthy, it sounds like he could be homo for dun and black. Unless the mares who had the seven dun & grullo foals were all duns and grullas themselves, I would say there is about an 80% chance he is homo for both. If he is homo for dun and black the only colors that he can produce are (classic/bay)dun and grullo, and with mares that carry the cream gene (such as your palomino mare) buckskin dun if the foal recieves the cream gene. That really narrows the field of possible colors from him, no red based colors and foals would always have the dun modifier gene. If you were planning on standing him for outside mares, I would recomend getting him geneticaly tested so that you can verify he is homo for black and dun, it could be a selling feature.
 

Jodi Braford
Neonate
Username: Braford

Post Number: 1
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Friday, March 23, 2007 - 09:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Very awesome site you have here! I googled my name & found out that we were mentioned here. I'm Jodi Braford, my husband & I own Crazy Horse Ranch near Brainerd, MN. Bo, aka Big Black Otoe is our pride & joy.(the B/W overo, homo for black stallion- Fly Boy's dad)
I just wanted to mention that Fly Boy's dam is red dun overo APHA, granddam is red dun AQHA & grandsire is sorrel tovero. We started out over 20 years ago with the peachy pretty light gold red dun Quarter horses. Our original red dun AQHA stallion always threw red dun or regular dun. We had bred him to a red dun mare & kept 2 of their fillies. One of those mares is Fly Boy's granddam. We bought Bo (our B/W APHA stallion)in 1998 & started breeding him with those mares and started getting regular dun & grullo paints from him. I LOVE DUN FACTORS! Bo has thrown some of his loudest foals with Quarter horse mares. Funny thing though, when we get the regular duns out of him & red dun mares, (black trim) they have red dorsals & often both black & red striping on their legs! Very nice to meet you all! Jo



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