Val both horses are black so it just depends on either being homozygous and whether the stud is homozygous or not for dun. If they are both heterozygous for black you have a 75% chance for a black foal. If one or both are homozygous for black all foals will be black. If the stud is hetero for dun 50% of all offspring will be dun. If he is homo for dun 100% will be dun. So you chance for grulla are 37.5% to 100%
Neither one has been tested. I know my mare is out of two colored paints, I believe overo(papers are at home, can't check right now), the stud is out a chestnut/sorrel dam(not sure if solid or colored) and a black/white overo sire. The black/white overo, states that he is homozygous for black, and his foals have been blacks, duns, grullos and bays; but according to your comment, they all should have been black right? Including this grulla stud, or am I mistaken?
Grullo and bay are black horses with a modifying gene. Grullo is a black horse with the dun gene. (black dun) Bay is a black horse with an agouti gene.(restricts the black to the points) What color was the dun foal you mentioned?
Thanks, it's starting to make sense to me now. Braford's Crazy Horse Ranch Here's the website for the black/white overo. You have to click on the photo album to view pic of his foals. All of the pics just say dun, they don't give an actual color and I can't tell by just looking at the pics.
That worked. Is Bo the stallion you are breeding to? Am I correct that it is his sire that was homozygous black with the dun foals? Very nice either way
Bo is the the homozygous black with dun foals and the sire of the stud that I'm breeding to. The actual one that I am breeding to is pictured under "BO and his foals", then on page 2, he's Flyboy.
My husband tells me that I am going to be a wreck by spring from anticipation of our arriving foals. It is always exciting but this is the first year that we will be breeding our mares to our own stallion. When we bought Boy (the rest of our horses are mares) I would love to hear what other people think about what color foals we will have arriving this coming spring.
Boy is a choclate brown colored tobiano. Here is a picture of him at 2 years. http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e284/JennsPaints/EditedDesktop.jpg Trying to figure out what color he is started my journey into color genetics. He is registered as buckskin and when he was a baby he was. Then he darkened. I think he is a very dark buckskin. His sire is a black tobiano and his dam is a creamello tobiano. He has 2 full siblings, one is palomino tobiano and the other is a solid grula.
Our Mares Buckey - dark bay quarter horse - parents buckskin and bay Denise - seal brown (brown muzzel and inside upper legs)quarter horse - parents gray and sorrel Baby - lighter bay quarter horse - parents sorrel and black Sequel - black based gray tobiano - parents black based gray Tob-Overo and black solid Marty - black tobiano - parents black tob-overo and solid brown
I wish that I had pictures of the mares to attach but I don't right now. Hopefully I can remedy that in the near future.
Okay I sold my black mare to a friend for a riding horse. So there goes my option of breeding her, but she's offered to me to use either her palomino or bay mare to breed to the grulla overo. So what now would my colors options be if I would breed: palimino X grulla overo bay X grulla overo
Val, that is a tough question to answer accuately without more info so this might be confusing, but here it goes....
A Grullo is a black horse with the dun gene, but we don't know if he is homozygous for black or dun (If one of his parents was a red based color sorrel, red dun palomino, etc then he cannot be homo. Unless both his parents were dun he is heterozygous for dun) For the sake of simplicity we will assume he is hetero for dun.
A palomino is homozygous for red and heterozygous cream. If the stud is hetero for black the basic breakdown is that each foal has a 50% chance of getting the black gene, 50% chance of getting cream, and 50% chance of getting dun. So, possible colors are sorrel, palomino, dunalino, red dun, black, smokey black, grullo, and smokey grullo. However, the palomino mare might carry the agouti gene (it cause black color to be confined to the mane, tail, ears and lower legs. Basically turns black into bay. It does nothing on a red based coat color.) If the mare does carry agouti each foal has a 50% chance of recieving it which means that you could also get buckskin, dunskin, bay and dun.
If the stud is homo for black, the foal will be black based so the possibilities are black, smokey black, grullo, and smokey grullo (buckskin, dunskin, bay and dun if the mare carries agouti).
We know the bay mare carries agouti because she is bay, but we don't know if she is hetero for black or agouti. If the bay and the grullo are both hetero for black each foal would have a 75% chance of being black (the other 25% is red), a 50% chance of getting the dun gene, 50% chance of agouti(unless the mare is homozygous for agouti) The possible colors are sorrel, red dun, bay, dun, black and grullo. If one or both of the horses are hetero for black then the possibilities are bay, dun, black and grullo.
If the bay mare or the palomino mare are homo for agouti it will effect any black based color so black, smokey black and grullo would not be options.
If the stud is homo for overo every foal will recieve the overo gene, but if he is hetero for overo, each foal only has a 50% chance of recieving the overo gene.
It is a confusing mix because among the three horses almost all of the common color genes are represented. You have black/red, dun, cream and agouti. I think that is it, but somone may have more to add.
So if a stud is Dun and both of his parents were Dun he is Homo for the Dun gene? Or just possibly? I am actually getting a Dun stallion and this is very interesting to me. He has tons of Dun and Buckskin in his pedigree. If I go back 5 generations there are 1 palomino, 4 bays, 4 sorrels and 2 roans and the rest are Dun or Buckskin. He threw all Dun and grulla foals last year, none of this years crop are born yet And wondering if I breed my Palomino mare to him what colors could we get?
If both of the studs parents were dun he might be homo for dun. Dun is a dominant gene, meaning that if a horse carrys the gene it will show (the cream gene on palomino can bleach out gene markings sometimes, same with perlino and cremello When it comes to horses, every rule has at least one exception) for the sake of simplicity right now we will ignore the exceptions. When you breed a heterozygous dun, each of its offspring have a 50% chance of getting the dun gene. What this means is if you breed 2 hetero duns 4 times you should statistically get 1 non dun, 2 hetero duns and 1 homo dun. You say he threw all duns and grullas last year, do you know how many foals he had? If he has had 10 foals out of 10 non dun mares I would say his odds of being homozygous would be very high.
As for the color cross between the dun and palomino, I have a question. Do you know what what color were the dam and sire of the dun? Also has he ever had any foals that were a red based color?
Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 11:29 am:
Well Dorthy, it sounds like he could be homo for dun and black. Unless the mares who had the seven dun & grullo foals were all duns and grullas themselves, I would say there is about an 80% chance he is homo for both. If he is homo for dun and black the only colors that he can produce are (classic/bay)dun and grullo, and with mares that carry the cream gene (such as your palomino mare) buckskin dun if the foal recieves the cream gene. That really narrows the field of possible colors from him, no red based colors and foals would always have the dun modifier gene. If you were planning on standing him for outside mares, I would recomend getting him geneticaly tested so that you can verify he is homo for black and dun, it could be a selling feature.
Very awesome site you have here! I googled my name & found out that we were mentioned here. I'm Jodi Braford, my husband & I own Crazy Horse Ranch near Brainerd, MN. Bo, aka Big Black Otoe is our pride & joy.(the B/W overo, homo for black stallion- Fly Boy's dad) I just wanted to mention that Fly Boy's dam is red dun overo APHA, granddam is red dun AQHA & grandsire is sorrel tovero. We started out over 20 years ago with the peachy pretty light gold red dun Quarter horses. Our original red dun AQHA stallion always threw red dun or regular dun. We had bred him to a red dun mare & kept 2 of their fillies. One of those mares is Fly Boy's granddam. We bought Bo (our B/W APHA stallion)in 1998 & started breeding him with those mares and started getting regular dun & grullo paints from him. I LOVE DUN FACTORS! Bo has thrown some of his loudest foals with Quarter horse mares. Funny thing though, when we get the regular duns out of him & red dun mares, (black trim) they have red dorsals & often both black & red striping on their legs! Very nice to meet you all! Jo
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It is a confusing mix because among the three horses almost all of the common color genes are represented. You have black/red, dun, cream and agouti. I think that is it, but somone may have more to add.
) for the sake of simplicity right now we will ignore the exceptions. When you breed a heterozygous dun, each of its offspring have a 50% chance of getting the dun gene. What this means is if you breed 2 hetero duns 4 times you should statistically get 1 non dun, 2 hetero duns and 1 homo dun. You say he threw all duns and grullas last year, do you know how many foals he had? If he has had 10 foals out of 10 non dun mares I would say his odds of being homozygous would be very high. 
