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Conformational heredity?

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » Conformational heredity? « Previous Next »


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Marybeth (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 68.212.15.146
Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 11:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How likely would a foal out of a toed-out mare and by a straight legged stallion (who has thrown lovely foals, don't know about the conformation of the mares) be to be crooked? Thanks.
 

Lisa Weir
Yearling
Username: Pals_pal

Post Number: 87
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 06:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, Marybeth. You ask tough ones, don't you?

I'm no expert on the genetics thing, but I can tell you from exprience of what I've seen.

Was the mare born that way? Or did she develop the trait from bad trimming early on, etc? And does she turn out from the fetlock, knee or shoulder? This will have some bearing on the foal.

I would say you have a slim chance of getting one like her, but it does depend on the prepotency of the stallion. By breeding to a correct stallion you have better chances of a good legged foal. A small amount of turning out is correctable with careful and regular trimming early on and so I'd say you have little to be concened about.

Best of luck!
 

Anonymous
 
Posted From: 12.28.8.20
Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 11:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Marybeth

Your mare will have a big infulence on what your foal is, I believe the general rule is about 80% while the stallion inputs about 20%. If you want a straight foal, it's best to start with a mare with good legs. While injuries and bad trimming can affect the growth of their legs, there are many broodmares who never see a farrier that have straight legs and good confirmation.
 

Anonymous
 
Posted From: 66.211.208.211
Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 01:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would have to agree although I don't think its as much as 80%. I wouldn't breed a mare if I wouldn't be happy with a carbon copy of her because often thats what you get. However some mares will suprise you and consistently have babies that are nicer than they are. I guess it would just depend on how bad she toes out whether you would want to risk it.
 

Cathy
Yearling
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 70
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 09:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The fact is that all offsrpring get 50% of there genes from each parent. It is commonly believed that nuture does out do nature as far as temperment goes, but it has nothing to do with genetic makeup.
 

Lisa Weir
Yearling
Username: Pals_pal

Post Number: 92
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 07:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The fact remains, that while each parent has a say in the genes department, some horses will be more prepotent than others. There are many stallions that are known for one trait or another, and their offspring are recognisable instantly. Likewise mares, although they don't have the numbers to make this quite so apparent.

If you have a mare that is not perfect, you better your chances of a good legged foal by using one of these such stallions over her.

Having said that, I have seen foals born from two good legged parents that have had rather shabby legs, so there are no definites.

In this case, unless the deformity is large or originates higher up the leg, a bit of corrective trimming should be all that is needed in the resulting foal.

Without seeing the mare in question, it's hard to know if this is the case.
 

Cathy
Yearling
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 74
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 09:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lisa the horses you are talking about are homozygous for the gene or combination of genes that they are known for. I had a mare like that.
As you say alot can be done for a crooked foal with trimming, bracing ect. That is why we run the chance of gettting crooked foals from two straight parents. The genetics are hidden.
 

Saucy
Nursing Foal
Username: Saucy

Post Number: 16
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Monday, December 19, 2005 - 11:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A few points worth thinking about:

1. As Cathy quite rightly said, foals are made up of 50% of their mothers and 50% of their fathers. It's biologically impossible to be anything but half of each parent.
2. Mares feed and nuture the foal so things like foal size at birth and speed of development are linked to the biological quality of the mare. Foals learn behaviours from their mothers, so things like pawing at feed time and other even less desirable habits can be picked up by foals from their mothers. Interestingly, research on embryo transplant foals indicated that their may be some evidence of foals even copying the gaits of their mother. They finished with a comment along the lines of "so if you want to breed a dressage horse, don't use a shire as a recepient mare!'.
3. As Cathy again quite rightly mentioned, prepotency is not about passing more than 50% of the genes, it's about the type of gene they pass. Prepotent stallions or mares have homozygous genes i.e. both parts of the gene are identical. An easy example of this is the colour chestnut. Chestnuts have a prepotency to get chestnuts because the only colour gene they have (because it's homozygous) is chestnut. Therefore if you extropolate this example (and it's actually much more complex than this because of multiple gene effects and cross-linking of genes), a horse who is homozygous for 'jumping' will pass the jumping gene on because it has a double copy of the same gene therefore whichever one is passed it will carry the jumping attribute.

In answer to your question, conformationally you have a 50% chance that your mares conformation will come through in the foal. HOWEVER, if the stallion you use is prepotent for 'straight legs' that will reduce the liklihood of getting toe-out legs. Also, even if the foal is born toe-out you can mechanically alter this through good farriery so that you end up with something that doesn't toe-out as much as it's mother. Bear in mind though that all foals are born toe-out to compensate for the rotational effect on the forelegs when the chest broadens as a yearling and two year old, so don't think that's it's got poor conformation and try to straighten it out as a foal. If it is severly toed-out as a foal, you will need to take veterinary advice about the cause of it. If the leg is twisted at a joint, you make create more problems by trying to straighten it out by adjusting the foot.
 

Lisa Weir
Yearling
Username: Pals_pal

Post Number: 94
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Tuesday, December 20, 2005 - 09:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Genetics is a whole big can of worms, isn't it?
You can better your chances of getting what you want, but all it takes is a 1% chance and you can get something else entirely.

It's very interesting to read all these posts.

I have a question...If a horse that is homozygous for something is bred to a horse that is homozygous for a different trait in that area...does the offspring have a 50% chance of passing on either trait?

I ask because there is one sireline I know of that is so prepotent for a physical type that it seems that none of the mares in the mix have had any say at all. How is this possible?

I can feel myself getting very fascinated by this whole subject. Not the colour bit so much...thoroughbreds are pretty dull in that respect. But the other aspects...
 

Saucy
Nursing Foal
Username: Saucy

Post Number: 17
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Friday, January 06, 2006 - 09:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lisa,

The answer to your question, is 'dominance'.

In your last example, where 2 homozygous horses are crossed the offspring will receive one gene from each parent. These genes will then be displayed in the phenotype (outward appearance) of the horse based on the order of dominance of the inherited genes.

Lets take an example. Colour is the genetic area most known about. Let's take the example of a homozygous chestnut horse crossed with a homozygous grey horse. In the 'table' of dominance, grey is dominant over chestnut, therefore the phenotype of the horse will be grey. However, it's genotype is a pairing of grey and chestnut (heterozygous). Therefore when crossed to a NON-grey or heterozygous grey horse, this animal could produce non-grey horses.

GG (Grey) + ee (Chestnut) = All 4 combinations of gene mix can produce only 1 possible outcome - Ge
(heterozygous Grey)

So if you then crossed this animal back to a homozygous chestnut horse you get the following possibilities:

Ge + ee = Ge (Grey) or ee (Chestnut)

or crossed it to a heterozygous grey horse (with a chestnut recessive gene):

Ge (Grey) + Ge (Grey) = GG (homozygous grey), Ge (heterozygous grey), ee (Chestnut)

So what phenotype the horse displays will depend on which genes win the battle of dominance...

...get the picture ??
 

Lisa Weir
Breeding Stock
Username: Pals_pal

Post Number: 104
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 09:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ah, excellent! Now I get it.

Thanks so much, Saucy!
 

Jenn
Nursing Foal
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 15
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Sunday, January 15, 2006 - 12:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you are interested in genetics, I personally recomend color as a good place to start the education simply because you can look at a horse and see the effects of the gene, and it is also relatively easy to find out the colors of the dam/sire/grandparents, etc. Genetics becomes slightly less of a mystery once you get a grasp on the "rules" of how genetics work.
 

Lisa Weir
Breeding Stock
Username: Pals_pal

Post Number: 110
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 03:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, especially when looking at thoroughbreds. No dilutes to deal with...lol. I can see myself getting obsessed with all this.

Are there specific gene names for the conformational bits, though? I mean, how can you tell if say an offset knee is going to be dominant?
Practically speaking, this is more of an issue to TB breeders for the racing industry.
 

Jenn
Nursing Foal
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 19
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 11:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Conformation genetics is alot more difficult. I don't really know much about the genetics except what can be seen trough trial and error, but once you know how genetics work it becomes less mysterious. If you have a mare with a flaw in her legs, breed her to a sraight stallion. If the foal also has crooked legs it would appear as though the gene could be dominant. I hope you can find someone with a better grasp on the conformational side than me. I got into the color genetics when we bought a two year old stud as a stallion prospect. He was (and still is) a chocolate brown, but registered as buckskin (he was when he was born). His sire is black and his dam is creamello. He has 2 full siblings, one is palamino and the other is grullo. I think Boy (original, eh. But all of our other horses are mares.) is a dark buckskin. We are expecting his first foal crop in May/June and that should help solve the mystery.
Here is a picture of him at 2 and in July so his coat is as light as I have seen it. Right now in the middle of winter he is much darker, but not black.http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e284/JennsPaints/EditedDesktop.jpg
 

Lisa Weir
Breeding Stock
Username: Pals_pal

Post Number: 116
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Monday, January 23, 2006 - 04:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for your help, Jenn.

Your Boy is just gorgeous! I love his head.
 

Jenn
Weanling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 41
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 24, 2006 - 02:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank-you. When I bought him I was actually at the breeders to look at a black tobiano stud with Hancock breeding that he had for sale, but when I saw Boy it was love at first sight. The colt that I had gone to look at was really "in your face" while Boy quietly stood aside. Friendly but respectful. I used to say I would never own a horse with Impressive in his pedigree (HYPP issues), but Boy made me change my mind (but I did verify he is N/N). I can hardly wait to see his foals this spring.
 

Lisa Weir
Breeding Stock
Username: Pals_pal

Post Number: 118
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 05:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HYPP? Is that the falling down thing?
 

Emma
Breeding Stock
Username: Emma

Post Number: 125
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 08:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No Hypp is a condition QH/paints and appy's can carry. It makes them collapse and fit and they can die from it. It is something that is trying to be bred out of the breeds and it all started from one QH stallion called Impressive. He was stunning and took the QH world by storm. Every one wanted to breed to him but in doing so he passed on this horrible gene. It is carried on by his offspring and when produced in a double dose can be lethal. I know you are a Aussie Lisa and it was brought to Australia by a QH stallion called Profit, a son of Impressive. The gene is not as prelavent here in Australia but there are still quiet a few around. The AQHA have just ruled out any registration of horses who carry a H/H gene(positive). I personally would like to see them also rule out H/N horses so that this horible thing can be bred out completely.
 

Jenn
Yearling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 74
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 10:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Emma, I absolutely agree with you about breeding HYPP out of horses. One of the most upsetting parts of the Impressive story is that for many years breeders with Impressive lines knew there was a problem, but kept their mouths shut and continued to breed his line and not tell anyone about the problems.

If AQHA and APHA would just refuse to register the offspring of a horse with even a single dose of the gene, it would be gone in no time.
 

E Watkins
Weanling
Username: Evie

Post Number: 41
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 12:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry, I just had to put my 2 cents worth in here-

Having owned a couple of Impressive bred horses (the first before I knew anything about the genetic trouble) I can say that there are some very nice horses with that blood line. I do however agree that they need to do their best to eliminate the possibilty of passing the genetic fault on to the next generation. If I understand correctly, a horse that is N/H can be bred and produce a healthy offspring so long as it's not crossed with another Impressive bred horse that is also N/H. (of course you'd still have the possiblity of the N/H carrying on, you'd just have to be aware of what lines you hores has and what you are breeding to) Unfortunately, not everyone is responsible in their breeding practices.
 

Emma
Breeding Stock
Username: Emma

Post Number: 128
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Monday, January 30, 2006 - 07:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You are correct E but i am pretty sure i have read that there are some horses who also show symtoms of Hyyp when they are N/H. I read not so long ago a whole write up on Hypp and it surprised me how many horses actually had it in America. The impressive bred horses are lovely and I have a few here that have Impressive about 5 generations back. Both of them are N/N. The only problem with breeding these N/H horses is there are the people out there who will breed them together and not inform prospective buyers I have also heard of people throwing the papers of these Hypp bred horses away and just selling them as grade horses so they can get more money for them. The only way to get rid of Hypp is to not register the horses that carry the gene IMHO.
 

Lisa Weir
Breeding Stock
Username: Pals_pal

Post Number: 120
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 05:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've read a little about this. But as QH etc aren't my area of interest, I didn't go too far in. It's a horrible thing. But does everyone who buys a horse with this line test for the gene? I don't know what form of perantage verification is done for registration with these horses. Is it DNA testing as TBs do?
 

Emma
Breeding Stock
Username: Emma

Post Number: 129
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Tuesday, January 31, 2006 - 07:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lisa it is tested for and i know here that horses from bloodlines carrying Hypp must be tested before being rehistered. Not every one is aware about the gene and thats how people are selling them on a lot of the time. The first time these owneers here of Hypp is when they get the vet out because there horse has had a episode.
Lisa you have open a whole can of worms here Hypp is a very HOT topic with QH paint and appy people!
 

Lisa Weir
Breeding Stock
Username: Pals_pal

Post Number: 128
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 05:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another question has popped into my head now. How did this start with Impressive? If it's genetic, he must have got it from his parents, surely?

I spoke to a QH owner today, and he'd never heard of HYPP. Scary.
 

Emma
Breeding Stock
Username: Emma

Post Number: 132
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 06:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That is what i was talking about Lisa, a lot of people don't understand or know about it and a lot of breeders do know about it and don't let on they do. From what I understand they don't know how it started but they think it may have been a mutation of a single gene which has been passed on to a lot of his offspring and so on and so forth (i think, maybe some one else is better informed on this side of things?) There is no known cases before Impressive.
 

Jenn
Yearling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 77
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 01, 2006 - 09:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is what I have found out about Hyperkalemic Periodic Paralysis(HYPP is much shorter).
- It seems to be a gene mutation that started in one horse, Impressive. All know cases trace back to Impressive, but not all Impresive decendants carry the gene.
- There is also a human version of HYPP.
- Horses can carry the gene but never have symptoms or problems from it.
- The short version what happens durring an HYPP episode is that nerve endings don't fire properly which can cause symptoms ranging from slight muscle tremors or weakness to as serious as colapse, dificulty breathing, heart attack, and occasionally death.
- I have read that attacks can be controlled through diet.
- Impressive became famous largely (but not only) through his career as a halter horse. At one time is stud fees were $25,000.00 US.
- Many Halter breeders/competitors feel that their chances of winning are higher with a horse that is H/H and so they breed for horses who are homozygous for HYPP.

I find it very sad that there are people out there who feel that "points" are more important than a healthy horse.
 

Emma
Breeding Stock
Username: Emma

Post Number: 135
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 12:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jenn Lokks like I wasn't to far off the mark with all of the info. But I didn't realise there was a human version to HYPP. I too find it sad that breeders keep breeding these sick horses. I have never seen a attack but have read enough about it to know that it is not something I would want to witness
 

Jenn
Yearling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 78
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 11:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Emma, you were correct, I just went into a little more detail. I also have never seen an attack and hope that I never do. I do not even personally know anyone with a HYPP positive horse.
 

E Watkins
Yearling
Username: Evie

Post Number: 55
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 12:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Emma, you are correct, there are people who have Impressive bred horses that are doing just that. In the area where I live, a grade horse will bring more at auction than one that is registered with Impressive blood so the owner will throw the papers away. It's not always possible, but often you can just tell by looking that a horse has that bloodline, they are pretty distinct in their muscularity. It's a shame really, there are some nice, healthy, beautiful horses that don't get a fair chance at a productive life because of the bias that goes along with their pedidree. Because we buy and sell a lot of horses, we just won't buy one anymore with that lineage unless they've already been tested and are NN.
 

Jenn
Yearling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 79
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 02:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It doesn't seem to be a big deal around home, but there are not a lot of Impressive bred horses around here either. When we bought Boy we thought long and hard about it, but once we verified that he does not carry the gene we went ahead and bought him and we have not regreted it for a second. He is a great horse with a wonderful disposition. We are expecting his first foals this spring I am sooo excited.
I guess the bottom line is that you cannot have too much information, there are a lot of unpricipaled horse dealers out there.
 

Emma
Breeding Stock
Username: Emma

Post Number: 137
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 06:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I really like the impressive line, they are awsome looking horses but I to am very wary of buying anything with that line. I have two here and they are both lovely mares who produce stunning babies. One has Hypp a lot closer than the other but both horses are HYPP N/N. If they ever rule to not register these horses (N/H & H/H) we might feel safe at last to purchase horses with these lines and be confident that they don't have this gene.
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 268
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 06:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Hypp gene only goes back to Impressive. There were no know survivors past Impressive to test so that is where it ends. It can't be said that it started with Impressive only that is where the gene pool was able to be identified--with Impressive himself. I Have a colt with Impressive genes. I would not hesitate to breed to a Impressive bred horse or buy one it it were N/N. Since 1998 It is marked on any papers within AQhA the test results of blood tests or that it is a decendant of Impressive and can carry the gene. So if purchasing a horse from 1998 or forward it it safe to know how the horse is with the gene.

It use to be too in our area that same situation with the line of horses, but now that the information is available and knowledge is power people fell safe with it. Impressive is a powerful gene pool in the AQHA and to not allow these horse to be registered from this gene pool at all would be a shame. Labeling it on the papers and making known the results of the tests is the best way to go. AQHA will do the tests for free on any foals to be registered. I have seen some fantastic horses from this gene pool,people just need to be responsiable owners. It must be devestating to those who have tested positive and have worked for a long time to build their herd.
 

Jenn
Yearling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 80
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 08:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Emma, as you mentioned earlier in this post, AQHA will no longer register H/H horses starting with foals born in 2007, and as of 2010 or 2020 (I found conflicting info) N/H horses will not be registerable. I can't help but think that it is about time. Impressive was a good horse that got a bad rap because of one gentic flaw that should have been breed out of his offspring once the problem was discovered and identifiable. Once HYPP positive horses cannot be registered maybe people will feel more comfortable buying them and Impressive bred horses can get some of the credit they deserve.
Kim, you mentioned that is will be devestating to some breeders and you are right. Many have spent years building their herds, but they have also had years replace HYPP carriers, but many have chosen to perpetuate the gene. I have heard that there are many breeders preparing to sue AQHA because of the rule changes.

APHA has no rules regarding HYPP but I think that it would be benificial to at least require testing and place a note on the papers (like AQHA currently does) to give buyers peace of mind when puchasing a horse. I know it would have set my mind at ease.
 

Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk

Post Number: 269
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 02, 2006 - 09:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I could not find anything at the aqha web site in regards to the change for hypp/n/h horses. ?? I think I called them last year , manybe they made mention to me , don't remember. The only thing that has changed was that rule for 1998. I think that is a positive change and should have happened. This is your quote from a post above "If AQHA and APHA would just refuse to register the offspring of a horse with even a single dose of the gene, it would be gone in no time.". This would truely be a misfortune. I am taking this as the impressive bloodlines. There are ways to radicate the the problem gene. And that should be done. The people that already have a horse with the gene should not be allowed to breed to reproduce the gene as fatal and sicking as the gene is. Its sad all the way around. But those that do have positive tested equine should be allowed to continue to show permitting their horses are in sound condition. Do you tell the owners of a positive tested horse just to put it down and don't care about it now. You have a bad gene, we don't want you--yet the association has promoted the animals for years. I guess if I were in the situation that I bought a horse testing postive for hypp now but didn't know a clue about it 10 years ago or more , the association didn't do anything about it then they need to continue to permet those to compete. I agree that APHA needs mandate testing and place results on papers, but to give the genitic line a bad rap is wrong. How many horses are out there that can produce mongolodes and people don't know it because they don't have any genitic testing to see it.... Just the same here. Testing for club foot,parrott mouth or any other bad "trait" that can be produced. I agree totally that the gene needs to be put to a stop, but allowing breeding of a combonation of horses that won't produce the gene in the Impressive line.They have the proven facts of science how. Anyone can set their mind at ease before purchasing a Impressive bred horse and that is to have it tested or asking for results of a test. Plain and simple. And if the Associations continue to allow registrations of n/h and h/h its posted on the papers.

My comment about folks that have built thier herds on impressive bred horses is that is alot of hard work and alot of money. For many years the gene was unknown so their are many that did not intentionally breed horses to perpetuate the gene. It irritates me to see that the FQHA won't reconize anything with Impressive breeding. This is a foundation Quarter Horse, you take the good with the bad. The world is not perfect. There are flaws in it. Reconize it for what it is,learn and go on.

We need to be responsible for our actions, take care of what we create, learn from our mistakes. There will be those in the world that can't take accountabilitty for what they do, but it rests on their shoulders and they will be judged at a later time in life. For those that do have these animals to care for now, lets keep a open mind and not exclude them for choosing to care for their equine friends. Allow them to show and competel.

Just my own opinion.
Kim
 

Emma
Breeding Stock
Username: Emma

Post Number: 138
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 12:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think you may have miss understood the piece you quoted Kim. I think what Jenn meant was that if the AQHA stopped registering horses with even one HYPP gene (not Impressive gene) then HYPP would be very quickly erradicated.

I totally agree with everything else you have said Kim. This is something that needs to be closley moniterd with every association that acepts QH's breeding into there bloodlines. From appaloosa's and Paints right down to Quarter Ponies and the likes. All these horses have as much chance of being given the HYPP gene from a N/H or H/H parent as a pure bred QH does. I know I am in the process (with some piers) of starting up the Australian Quarter Pony Asso here and this has been a consideration of ours and N/H horses will not be allowed on our studbook register.

There is also that other QH gene, can't think of its name but it is linked with the Poco Bueno line and causes the 'glue' in the layers of skin to not work and the skin basically falls off the horse. This is not as known as HYPP but also has the potential to be a HUGE problem if it is not controlled now.
 

Jenn
Yearling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 81
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 01:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Emma, you are correct. Sorry for the missunderstanding Kim, what I meant was a "single dose of HYPP". If I had meant "the line" I would have said the line. The discussion was about the HYPP gene. Please reread my previous posts. There are many outstanding Impressive offspring that do not carry the HYPP gene. I am fortunate enough to own one of them. I also do not think registration should be taken away from horses that are already registered, it is continuing to breed horses with a known genetic defect that will be passed on that I see as irresponsible. There are many other genetic defects that should not be passed on either (as you mensioned parrott mouth, etc). It seems as though the only way to stop the continuation of HYPP is to stop registering new foals with the HYPP gene. I think we are all on the same page here.
Impressive - Good
HYPP - Bad

Emma, starting the Quarter Pony Assn sounds exciting. Good luck. And I have heard about the skin thing.(I cannot remember the name either) Hopefully breeders will breed resposibly.
 

Jenn
Yearling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 82
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 01:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is a liitle info on HYPP and HERDA (skin problem)
http://www.sporthorsemedicine.com/geneticdzqhrse.htm
 

Emma
Breeding Stock
Username: Emma

Post Number: 140
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 05:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thats IT!!!! Herda! I new it started with H just couldn't get the rest. The Quarter Pony thing will be wonderful when set up, it will be a long slow road for us though as we will be building the breed. We have no QP's here so it is a matter of breeding QH's with certain pony breeds and then crossing them back and forth untill we are at a point where what we are producing is a consistant type we are looking for. A LOT of work for the breeders but it will all be worth it! We will also be looking for some American breeders to jump on board so we can import some seman to cut the breeding length in half. Fun and Games!
 

Michelle Laughlin
Neonate
Username: Mlaughlin

Post Number: 4
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 10:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The solution is not to stop registering theses horses but to stop breeding them! As someone mentioned before beeders are knowing breeding HYPP H/H horses and trowing away the papers to sell as grade horses. These dishonest breeders can do that just as easily with an unregistered horse. There is also the issue of the QH and Paints becoming very popular with cross breeds, so if the AQHA and APHA are the only registries banning the registration of these horses the gene can still be passed. I agree that AQHA, APHA should require testing and state the results on the papers. But there needs to be a law of somekind requiring castration of H/H or H/N horses. This will be the only way to stop this horrible gene.
 

Jenn
Yearling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 83
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, February 03, 2006 - 11:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Michelle, as you said the problem is getting people to stop breeding to continue the gene, and one first step is to stop registering the offspring carrying the gene. Controlling HYPP in horses, not just Quarter Horses, will be a long, hard battle. Public awareness is also a very important step because there are a lot of people with no information or misinformation.
Unfortunately your idea of a law to require castration of HYPP carriers would never happen. Things like that are up to registries and individual owners and breeders. As far as I can tell the best we could hope for as far as laws would be if a law were passed to criminalize knowingly breeding a horse with a genetic flaw and not notifying the purchaser (preferably in writting) that the horse carrys the flaw. That should then also cover unregistered horses.

Emma, you will definately have your work cut out for you for the next little while, but it will be worth it.



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