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Color possiblities?

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » Color possiblities? « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Jewels
Neonate
Username: Jewels

Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 02:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a Palomino mare that I had bred. Her sire is a Palomino and her dam is sorrel. The stud we had her bred to is bay roan or silver bay. He has black legs, mane and tail, blue body and a dark red head. I am not sure what color his sire and dam are.
What colors can the foal turn out?
Thanks in advance!
 

Kelly Lea Adams
Neonate
Username: Kelly_lea

Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 04:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Jewels,

Depending upon a couple genes your general colour possibilities are:

Palomino/Palomino Roan
Buckskin/Buckskin Roan
Sorrel/Chestnut/Red Roan
Black/Blue Roan (black roan)
Bay/Bay Roan
Smoky Black/Smoky Black Roan

I have to doubt the stallion is a silver bay, if he were you wouldn't be able to tell he was a bay unless he was genetically tested or produced black based foals from mares with no black themselves. Silver bays often look like sorrels/chestnuts because the silver gene always dilutes the black colouring in the points. The points being mane, tail and legs in bays and buckskins. They can look like any sorrel/chestnut colour, or even go up to a flaxen-like colour in the mane and tail and the legs can look lighter than the rest of the base body coat. But you really have to know what you're looking for to spot it. :-)

If you knew more about your mare's and the stallion's colour genes I'd be able to remove some possibilities from that list and help narrow it down even further for you. But as you can see you're open to the whole range of horse base coat colours. :-)

One thing I need to point out with horse colours is that foals are only born with the colours their own parents were born with. They can not inherit previous generations colours. Keeping in mind I'm talking about base coat colours, not the numerous other extention genes that can affect them.

I do not claim to be an expert, but I've been studying horse colour genetics for the last 10 years on my own and have accumulated quite a bit of info during that time and I am 100% positive your foal will be one of those colours listed above based on the colours you've provided. :-)

If you can provide me with more info on your mare's previous foals and the colour of stallions she was bred to, plus this stallion's foals and perhaps the colour of the mares he was bred to I could possibily narrow it down even further. But at best it'd still be a 50% chance of being correct.

Hoping you get the colour you want!!! :-)

Kelly Adams
 

Jewels
Neonate
Username: Jewels

Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 06:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Kelly, thank you for your reply.
I wasn't sure about the sire being a bay roan or silver because he is so unique in his coloring. He was actually born a really dark color that the owners thought that he was going to be blue. But with age, he is a really dark bay roan. (darker than any other bay roan I have seen, in fact he looks blue) However, I just got a copy of his papers today, and he is registered bay roan.
His sire is registered as Chestnut Roan and his dam is a really dark bay.
This is the first foal for my mare as well as this sire. I guess that doesn't help much huh?
Is there any other information I can give you that would help?
Just narrowing it down to those colors you listed, helps out a lot tho. I would be happy with any of those!!
I really appreciate you taking the time to help me.
 

Kelly Lea Adams
Neonate
Username: Kelly_lea

Post Number: 4
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 10:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Jewels,

I would suspect the stallion is indeed a bay roan, so your chances of getting any of those colours are pretty much set. I also suspect the stallion has the sooty/smutty gene which is causing his coat to look darker than some other bays. A lot of bays have been mistaken as blacks/browns and some buckskins as brown because of this gene. Some palominos have been mistaken as sorrels also. Although this is fairly rare.

The stallion will definitely be carrying only one black gene so he has a 50% chance of passing that on and a 50% chance of passing on the roan gene, along with a 50% chance of passing on his red gene. I can't tell exactly what his agouti status is (if he's carrying two genes or not), but he's definately carrying at least one agouti gene for sure (that's why he's a bay roan instead of a blue roan). But even with just one agouti gene he has a 50% chance of passing that on also. (Black horses do not and can not carry the agouti gene if they are truly black, if they carry even one copy of this gene they are bays.)

Your palomino mare has a 50% chance of passing on her creme gene and a 50% chance of passing on her red gene, since she is a palomino and not a cremello.

I would suggest getting both mare and stallion tested for Agouti if you want to rule out some possible colours, but if you're not breeding for blacks or smoky blacks I'd pretty much pass on it unless you're just curious. (I just had one mare done and won a bet with her unfortunately, she's a palomino also and just a buckskin mare left to do and I'm pretty positive I'll be winning that bet also, unfortunately!)

I think you'll just have to cross your fingers and toes to get what colour you'd like out of the mare and stallion. :-)

Will you keep us up to date in Foal Watch about your mare and let us know what her foal is? I'll be visiting there myself with my QH buckskin mare soon. She's due in January, although I can't honestly offer much about her since she's in the US and I'm in Canada, but the support from the great people in there will be much needed and appreciated. :-)

I wish you the best of luck on your upcoming foal and it was absolutely no trouble, I completely enjoyed it!!! It's about time I put some of this knowledge to use to help someone else instead of everyone helping me for all these years! :-)

Kelly Adams
 

Jewels
Neonate
Username: Jewels

Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 12:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Kelly,
Your information is invaluable! There is so much to learn when it comes to genetics. Makes me wish I'd paid more attention to it in college. LOL Anyways, once again, thank you for your time. You have taught me a lot already.
I was just kind of curious as to what color we should be expecting. I really want a foal that looks like the sire. He is gorgeous. A buckskin would be awesome too. But it sounds like whatever she has will be a pretty color. As long as it's heathly!
I have a lot of people anxiously waiting to see what she has.
She isn't due to foal until the middle of June. We had a hard time getting her to come in. Better late than never.
I will definately keep you posted as to what she has.
Good luck with yours too! I'll check in there to see what you get!!
Jewels
 

Kelly Lea Adams
Neonate
Username: Kelly_lea

Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, October 26, 2005 - 09:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Jewels,

I sincerely hope you get what you'd like! But I agree, as long as it's healthy, we can all forgive the colour. :-)

Boy, I can relate to the breeding problems, my own palomino mare was inseminated on two cycles in July herself and never took. But I'm confident I'll get a foal out of her one way or another! :-)

Take care and I can't wait to see your foal!!! :-)

Kelly Adams
 

Anonymous
 
Posted From: 12.28.8.20
Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 01:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kelly, you sure seem to know your stuff so maybe you can help me as well. I have a grulla mare that is out of a dun sire and a brown dam. I was told that she is not a "true grulla", can you explain that term to me? Her foal this year out of a gray stallion showed dun markings on his legs at birth and a dorsal but later turned and ugly bay color, now he's turning gray. (which doesn't surprise me as the stallion produced about 80% gray offspring) This year I have her bred to a chestnut stallion who "usually" produces the color of the mare. Any guess on what my chances are for a dun foal this year?
 

Kelly Lea Adams
Neonate
Username: Kelly_lea

Post Number: 7
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 10:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Anonymous,

A grulla is a black horse with dun factor working on it's base coat colour. A grulla can not have the agouti gene, otherwise it is a bay dun.
It's colouring can range from mouse to silver, and on most you can see leg barring, a dorsal stripe or shoulder striping. Each horse varies in how much dun factor it inherits from it's parents.

If your mare fits the above description, then she could be a grulla, regardless of what her parents were.

Considering her sire was a dun, he has a chance of producing grulla foals if he or the dam were not homozygous for agouti (AA). However, a grulla is never 'true' until it is tested negative for agouti and has no less than one black gene, at least in my opinion.

Some people think that if a grulla doesn't come from at least one grulla parent, it isn't a grulla. This is simply not so. Many grulla ancestors came from horses who were in fact not grulla themselves. Many were dun factored horses like buckskin duns, red duns (when crossed with a black/bay horse) and bay duns, among other dun possibilities. That's the same as saying a palomino can only come from one palomino parent, which is not true, palominos can come from any horse that has a creme gene, even a smoky grulla, which is a grulla with a hidden creme gene. I hope this clears up any confusion and misinformation.

As to your foal possibilities, your mare has a 50% chance of producing a foal with some form of dun factor with each seperate breeding to a non-dun factored stallion. The dun factor percentage improves to 75% if you breed her to a stallion that has dun factor himself.

I must caution you that these percentages are only to be taken as rough estimates. Mares and stallions aren't aware of these percentages and therefore some may produce more or less than what is stated. :-)

Good luck on your foal and I would love to know what your mare has, if it is ok with you! :-)

Kelly Adams
 

Kelly Lea Adams
Neonate
Username: Kelly_lea

Post Number: 8
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 09:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi again Anonymous,

I'm hoping you didn't actually mean a 'dun' as in a buckskin dun, because if that's what you meant then your chances are zero, unless your mare happens to be a smoky grulla and the chestnut stallion has the agouti gene. Then you might actually have a chance. :-)

Kelly
 

E Watkins
Neonate
Username: Evie

Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 11:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kelly,

The mares sire is a yellow dun, she does have a dorsal strip, and if I could figure out how to attach a photo of her, I have one from our trip to Wyoming so that you can at least get some idea about her coloring. From what I've seen in photos online, I'd think a "smokey" grulla would apply to her. However, the more I read, the more confused I become!
 

Kelly Lea Adams
Neonate
Username: Kelly_lea

Post Number: 9
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 06:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi E. Watkins,

Colour can be pretty easy to predict, if you follow a simple rule. Every colour you see on a mare she has a 50% chance of passing on to her foals. Every colour you see on a stallion, he has a 50% chance of passing on to his foals. This doesn't take into account hidden genes or homozygous genes/colours, and for those, you'd actually have to test to even know they're there.

Contrary to what some people believe, you can't really tell a smoky grulla from a normal grulla. I've personally seen over 30 smoky grullas and over 50 grullas myself and there's really no way you'll be able to truly tell until you have your mare tested to see if she carries the creme gene.

Factors like gray, dun (just the factor that produces horses with dun-like markings/colours, like red dun, bay dun, etc.) and champagne are not truly base coat colours in their own right, like black and sorrel/chestnut. A simple way to describe them is like getting your hair coloured, frosted or highlighted. You can dye your hair red, blonde, purple, etc, but if you have black roots, your hair colour is indeed black.

This does not include paints, who follow similar rules yet can have their colour hidden by white painting.

It's safer to assume your mare is a grulla until she's tested or produces a creme/cream gened foal. And so far it sounds like she's produced a gray bay colt, who has no creme gene.

There are many myths and unsubstantiated beliefs surrounding colour. The simple rule to remember is what you see is what you get, or at least you have a 50% chance of getting. :-)

If you'd like, you can e-mail me your mare's picture and I will possibly be able to tell you what she is if the photo is clear enough.
You can e-mail me at: kellylea@gmail.com

Kelly Adams
 

E Watkins
Neonate
Username: Evie

Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 01:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kelly, you should have a couple of photos in your "inbox". Let me know what you think.

EW
 

Kelly Lea Adams
Nursing Foal
Username: Kelly_lea

Post Number: 12
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 04:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi E. Watkins,

BEAUTIFUL MARE! And I sent a reply to you from my home e-mail address. :-)
 

Anonymous
 
Posted From: 12.28.8.20
Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 11:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kelly,

Thanks for the quick response, I sent you a rather lengthy response to that same email address. ( sorry, when it comes to horses, I get chatty, I can't help it..lol) Also sent a couple of photos from two of our foals this
spring. We have 14 coming this year, 5 out of the chestnut stud I told you about and the other 9 are out of a red roan stud we bought just for the breeding season. It will be an interesting to see what kind of color we get this year. (and next as we'll be using a buckskin stud in the '06 breeding season )

EW
 

Danielle Roosen-Runge
Weanling
Username: Rolling_hills_quarter_horses

Post Number: 21
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 08:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Okay... both my mares are due in the next 2 weeks and I am curious what other peoples opinions are on what I might get.

Both mares are bred to the same stud - He is black, both his sire and dam are black.

The one mare is a Bay and her sire is Bay and her Dam is Black.

The other mare is a Bay with what some consider to have dun factor as she has a dorsal stripe. Her sire was a Bay and her dam was a Dun.

Look forward to everyone's input!
 

Laura
Neonate
Username: Horssports

Post Number: 4
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 10:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm glad to find this posting about color possibilities. I am awaiting the arrival of my first foal and I'm wandering about what color it will be.

My mare is black.. or what you might call a black-bay. She has no brown on her muzzle.. but, her color does fade a bit in the summer sun.

Her sire was black. Her Dam was a liver chestnut.

The stallion is a dark bay. His sire is a bay. His dam is a chestnut.

The joke is that since I want a bay or black colt, that I will end up with a chestnut filly.

What are my chances??

thanks,
Laura.
 

Danielle Roosen-Runge
Yearling
Username: Rolling_hills_quarter_horses

Post Number: 73
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 12:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well Laura I would say you could end up with Bay, Black or Chestnut...

I bred my Bay mare who is out of a Black mare and by a Bay Stud to my Black Stud who's parents were also both Black... guess what I got a sorrel! Genetics are funny!
 

Laura
Neonate
Username: Horssports

Post Number: 6
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 10:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Danielle,

arrrrgh... all those bays and blacks and you ended up with a sorrel! Now, I'm really thinking a chestnut filly is in my near future. hehe.

Of course, I'll be happy with a healthy foal and mare regardless of color or sex.

I'm going to start camping out at the barn tomorrow night. My mare is really getting close. I almost stayed tonight... who knows, I may wake up in the wee hours of the morning and head out there. We are both rookies... so, it's hard to know exactly what her pattern will be.

(My barn is about 20 minutes away from the house)
 

Susan
Neonate
Username: Susan

Post Number: 1
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 05:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What color foal would I get if I bred a homozygous cremello stallion to a black mare?
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 119
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 06:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If the mare is not homozygous for black you can get smokey black and palomino. If the cremello has the agouti gene you can also get buckskin.
 

Jewels
Neonate
Username: Jewels

Post Number: 4
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 01:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kelly are you still around? I have not been here for a awhile, but my mare just foaled last night, and the filly looks like she is going to be a red dun. She is all red with the dorsal stripe down her back, with lighter coloring under her belly and fading down her legs. She has a red mane and tail. She is just solid red! Not a spec of white anywhere on her little body! lol
So, beings that her sire is a bay roan, with a chesnut roan and dark bay sire and dam, and the mare is palomino with palomino sire and sorrel dam, how did I get a dun? Ha ha. This is kind of crazy. Let me know what you think.
I will post pics of the filly, sire and dam for ya later on.
Thanks!

(Message edited by Jewels on June 12, 2006)
 

Jenn
Breeding Stock
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 199
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 11:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jewel, many foals are born with a dorsal stipe, it is commonly called "countershading" in this kind of circumstance. It usually goes away with their foal coat. It sounds like your filly is sorrel.
 

Jenn
Breeding Stock
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 200
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, June 12, 2006 - 11:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also, I have never bred roan, but I have heard that sometimes it doesn't show up until later on a horses coat. She could be a red roan.
 

Sandy D
Breeding Stock
Username: Sbr_appaloosas

Post Number: 223
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 11:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My guess would be that Jewels' filly could be a red roan, since she mentioned that the underside of the body is quite light. You will probably notice the roaning once the filly sheds her foal coat. A true roan will have darker legs and head than the rest of the body.
Of course it is quite possible that you just have a plain old chestnut filly!
But your filly cannot be a dun... one parent has to be a dun in order to produce a dun.
Post the pics!
 

Jewels
Neonate
Username: Jewels

Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 11:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am going to try this and see if it works.

This is the stallion...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/TincanChaser/blue.jpg

This is the Mare...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/TincanChaser/naptime1.jpg

Filly...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/TincanChaser/fillylaying.jpg

Filly again...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/TincanChaser/filly.jpg

Keep in mind that she was 2 1/2 weeks early and these pics were taken the day after she was born, so she looks kind of frail, I know. :-) This is also the mares first foal.

Thank you guys for your information! I am a maiden at this as well, haha, so your input is appreciated!
 

Diane Gatlin
Neonate
Username: Dhgatlin

Post Number: 2
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 11:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi everyone,
If you want to see some really interesting genetic possibilities go to www.colorfoal.com
I did it a couple of times and it really works!
Diane



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