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Does size pass on genetically???

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » Does size pass on genetically??? « Previous Next »


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True Colours Farm
Neonate
Username: Truecoloursfarm

Post Number: 2
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 08:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is a question for all of you. MOST people want over 16hh. MOST people wont look at a stallion that is under 16hh or breed a mare that is under 16hh (and I am talking hunter/jumper/dressage breeding here and not Quarter Horses, Paints, Arabians, etc).

16hh seems to be the ***Magic Number*** that everyone just HAS to have.

What about bigger? I mean - W-A-Y BIGGER!

Have any studies ever been done to anyone's knowledge where very very tall horses consistently produced very very tall foals if bred to tall (over 16hh stallions or mares)?

Are the really tall ones genetic freaks or is there some basis for them to pass on their "tall" genes to subsequent generations?

Yes - there is a reason for me asking

On the weekend I bought this lovely 3 year old TB mare off the track, that measures at 17.3 1/4!

I am assuming that at 3 years of age, she is still not done growing and once she comes off the track and lets down, she may well put on another inch or two over the course of the next few years (and hit 18hh - 18.1hh???) . She will, of course, get bred to Guaranteed Gold to produce some lovely and hopefully VERY tall palomino babies!

Has anyone out there had TB mares this tall and if so - what did they consistently produce? I dont think WB mares would be the same as they generally have more generational "tall" genes to pull from. I am just very very curious as to whether a TB mare this tall can consistently pass on her height to successive foals.

It sure will be fun to find out!

She is a really nicely balanced and well put together mare for her age and size.

Here are a few links to pictures of her:

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/BM1.jpg

and:

http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/images/BM.jpg

I wonder also if genetically - you have a better chance of a tall foal if you breed an 18hh mare to a 16.1hh stallion, rather than vice versa - an 18hh stallion to a 16.1hh tall mare???

I have never heard of any such studies being done before though ...

I would think about the only casual examples might be the larger Clyde mares bred to the generally smaller TB stallions, but I dont think any breeding has been done within an actual breed itself to see if there is a difference in size in the resultant foals ...

Anyone else?
 

Jos
Board Administrator
Username: Jos

Post Number: 10332
Registered: 10-1999
Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 10:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Knowledgeable persons in the h/j/d world agree that bigger is not better. In the hunter circuit it makes it difficult for the horse to get the "correct" striding. In the jumper circuit it makes it difficult for the horse to achieve sharp tight turns. In the dressage circuit, unless the horse is very talented, it is more difficult to hold them together. On top of that, bigger horses tend to have more soundness issues.

As far as research into heritability of size, there has indeed been such research, and it has found that the mare is the primary driving force behind setting the height of the foal. If the mare is big, and the stallion is small, the foal will be only slightly smaller than the mare. If the mare is small and the stallion big, the foal will be only slightly larger than the mare.
 

Terri Berwanger
Neonate
Username: Terrib

Post Number: 5
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 12:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Man that's big. I have a NH Thoroughbred mare and she is 16.3. Her colt foal this year is 7 months and is 14.1 and 650 pds. He is so big, but luckily not joint issues. His Dutch dad was 16.3 and I think this guy is going to be that. I am breeding to much smaller this year as I don't want too many giants!
 

Amanda (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 65.19.65.21
Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 08:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have bred my TB mare who is 15.3 to a 15.3 arab what are my chances of the foal being atleast 15.3 or 16 hands?
 

Sandy D
Breeding Stock
Username: Sbr_appaloosas

Post Number: 113
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 12:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jos:
I wonder, when you say "slightly bigger than" how much is the slightly?
Are we talking 1-2 inches or could we be talking an entire hand, 4 inches?

And where do genetics come into play when you end up with offspring who stay much smaller than either parent?
Case in point: I have a coming on 3 year old filly whose dam stood 14.2hh and sire was 14.3hh, this filly is currently only standing 13.2hh and she doesn't show any signs of growing any more. She has been this height since she was a yearling.
Is this something due to her genetic makeup or is there something else going on here? I bought her as a weanling with the intentions of using her later for breeding, but now I'm afraid that she will only produce very small foals.
She is a registered Appaloosa, but I'm beginning to think she may be better used for a POA breeding program if this is genetically related.
 

Emma
Weanling
Username: Emma

Post Number: 33
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 07:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sandy,
As a 3 yo i would think that your filly still has a few years growth in her. Keep the feed up to her and she might surprise you espeacially if she had QH breeding. Also we had a stallion who's parents were both just on 15hh and he is only 14.1hh but he is producing tall foals ... he has been fed coreectly his whole life so im not sure what is going on here, but don't think because she didn't go to full height that she can not breed taller foals.
 

Sandy
Nursing Foal
Username: Sandysz

Post Number: 12
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 08:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sandy,

I bought a 5 year old Appy mare,(BEB lineage), that was barely 14H. Now a year and a half later, she has grown 5 inches, and is 15.1. When I first saw her, I measured her and figured another 4, but got really surprized. The previous owner sold her very reasonable to me because of her height. So have patience with your filly and good luck. Who knows, what will happen. I hope I have this right..........take a string, rope, what have you, put one end at the middle of her pastern,streatch the string to the point of her elbow and hold it there, bring the string around from the pastern up over her withers. That should give you an estimate as to how much taller she will get. It has worked everytime for me.

Sandy K.
 

Emma
Weanling
Username: Emma

Post Number: 34
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 06:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Sandy,
I had heard almost the same thing with the string but i was told to hold one end at the corenette band and then go to the middle of the knee. Then turn it up from the knee to over the wither and that gives a estimate on there final height. Interesting because when doing this to the stallion i mentioned before it came up he should reach 15hh. Be interesting to see what height he is in a year.
 

Sandy
Nursing Foal
Username: Sandysz

Post Number: 13
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 10:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Emma, and all
To add a little more to this discussion, I waited until my Appy mare was 6 to get her bred for a late May 2006 foal. She is Sometimes Calypso at 15.1H.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/sometimes+calypso

She is bred to Ima Mcloud, He is 17.2H. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ima+mcloud.

I have always heard and seen that the mare dictates the size of the foal.
I have gotten real excited since I "saw" the foal on the 100 day US. Up until then I wasn't, as she had absorped the first one from the May AI breeding. It looked like it was laying down with it's legs folded under it,and when the vet got near it with the transponder it acted like it was trying to get up. AWESOME!!!!

I sure hope that I don't get the pinto crop out from my BEB crosses. I had a real heart attack when I saw a picture of one on appaloosaproject photos in the yahoo groups.

Take care. Sandy K.
 

Jan H. (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 69.253.11.21
Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 10:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heres one for ya...I have a appendex mare of my own breeding...sire was 15.3 dam was 15.1 this foal is 3 years old and is 17 hands. I owned her Mother and Grandmother and all are 15.1 or 15.even I have no idea where this size came from. Stallions in her line are all 15 to 15.3 hands tall. Could this be a throw back from way back? I just bred her to a 16.3 appendex stallion what can I expect from this breeding?
 

Emma
Weanling
Username: Emma

Post Number: 36
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 05:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thats a fair old height difference Sandy. We had a out side mare foal down with us this year. She was a 14hh QH mare and the sire was a 16hh QH stallion. Had i not been at the foaling the foal and probably the mare would have died as the foals shoulders were so big that it got stuck in the mares pelvis. After a fair bit of tugging (with contractions of course) the foal came out and MAN WHAT A WHOPPER!!! She was HUGE!!! So please watch your mare like a hawk when she is due. Good Luck with her ... i hope her preganancy goes well!
Jan that is very strange, must be a throw back. Maybe the mare will produce foals of 15hh just because it's there in her history. Or maybe she is just a freak of nature .... you will have to let us know the out come of this one!
 

Sandy D
Breeding Stock
Username: Sbr_appaloosas

Post Number: 115
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 05:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for all of the words of encouragement. The Appy filly doesn't have much QH breeding in her, she is 90% foundation Appaloosa.
The other problem is that I can't keep her feed up the way I would like to because as a yearling the vet determined that she had some DOD going on, epiphysitis, so he told me not to have her on grain or alfalfa, but just on grass hay and there was a supplement that he had me put her on for 6 months, it's supposed to help the correct balance of nutrients in her diet...Conform-Aid. So, I find it kinda strange that the vet told me that she was growing too fast and that's why the epiphysitis, but yet the poor girl isn't growing at all!
 

Jan H. (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 68.45.224.165
Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 09:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Emma I will let you know. I am really looking forward to this foal as my mare is a First Down Dash daughter and she is Bred to a really nice AQHA stallion called Tres Seis, the mare got her ROM on her maiden race as a 2 year old but bone chips on one knee ended her raceing career unfortunately. I will keep you informed when she foals. Thanks

Jan



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