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Passing on white markings

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » Passing on white markings « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Rowena S.
Neonate
Username: Rowena

Post Number: 4
Registered: 04-2011
Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2011 - 02:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am in the middle of looking for at least one more broodmare to start my own small program. My best friend owns a friesian stallion, which of course is solid black. I want to breed mares with some white markings on them to give a little bit of flash since I know the solid friesians will mute a lot of white expression in non-Paint mares.

I was recently told by a long-time breeder of thoroughbreds that mares with uneven socks and stockings have a much greater chance of passing on the white compared to socks/ stockings that are fairly "level" on the legs. And also if the white is higher up, especially above the knees/hocks. The breeder also said that if they have white on their under lip in addition to white on the face, they have a greater chance of passing on white facial markings. Does anyone else agree with this or have heard anything like this before? Just trying to choose mares not only for conformation, but also ability to pass on some "flash." Thanks for any insight anyone can give...
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 3906
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2011 - 05:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What about LWO paint mares?
 

Coco
Breeding Stock
Username: Baraaks_storm

Post Number: 119
Registered: 07-2008
Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2011 - 06:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What breed are you looking at?

I'm in agreement with your friend, but I'm no expert by any means. Just from what I'v seen so far.

Then again I've just had 2 colts with loads of color from two mares with only a star as markings.

Love to hear what everyone has to say- glad you posted this.
 

hedgerow pony farm
Breeding Stock
Username: Lotsofponies

Post Number: 180
Registered: 03-2009
Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2011 - 07:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the breeder is talking about mares with the sabino genes which I believe is different than the Overo gene. I'm not up on the color thing but the friesians have been solid for generations, I think even if all your mares have 4 stocking with a blaze it will be kind of hit & miss if you get some white. I guess it will depend on how much white you expect? My sabino stallion was bred to a solid bay mare who's parents didn't have any white and all her sibblings had no white. The mare's owner calls her a color killer and didn't care if the foal had any white. Below is a picture of the resulting foal and the daddy.

http://s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa170/hacooke/?action=view&current=SANY0004.j pg

http://s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa170/hacooke/?action=view&current=SPARKYCONF 04.jpg
 

Brittany Hindes
Breeding Stock
Username: Bhindes

Post Number: 271
Registered: 08-2009
Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2011 - 07:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think it all just depends on the bloodlines and the individual mare. I have a minimal overo paint mare who is LWO positive and she has been bred 5 times and this year she finally had her first colored foal. With all her other foals she always had a big white face and between 2 and 3 socks but that was it. Then I have a friend who had 2 loud overo mares she bred one mare to a minimal marked stud and the other to a stud with 4 high white socks and a solid white face. One mare had a breeding stock and the other mare had a foal with 4 high white socks but no white on the belly.

Personally if I was looking for a paint mare to throw flash I would look for a loud paint mare to breed so your chances will be greater. Then again sometimes even the breeding stock mares will throw the loudest foals ever. I think it all really depends on the mare and bloodlines. I am no breeder by any means but I havefriends who are paint breeders and this is what I have seen. Hope this helps.

Oh and one more thing at a barn we used to board our horses at the owner bred her mare who had 2 small socks and a stripe to a solid stud and they ended up having a beautiful filly she had a ton of white on her face and 4 white socks. Both parents were AQHA. I guess you will just never know until they come out. LOL Hope this info helps some
 

Colleen Beck
Neonate
Username: High_valley_gypsy

Post Number: 5
Registered: 04-2011
Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2011 - 10:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Get a mare who is homozygous for tobiano. You are almost guaranteed to get some flash with that combo.
 

Rowena S.
Neonate
Username: Rowena

Post Number: 5
Registered: 04-2011
Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 07:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you everyone, for your advice. My friend that owns the friesian stallion has been breeding him to her solid color saddlebred mares, to get Georgian Grand babies. Some of her mares that have white markings pass on some white to the offspring, but not always. She has bred him to a couple of outside Paint mares, and the babies came out Paint. I want to breed thoroughbred mares to get a good sport horse cross.

I have one TB broodmare that has proven to pass on her white to purebred TBs, but she has never been outcrossed to another breed. I want to acquire at least one more mare to start with. I'm not concerned about getting a lot of white. I just want some white to add a bit of flash to the babies since they'll sell better than solid color with no white at all.

I'm particularly interested in the theory that if the mare has uneven white on the legs, as opposed to white that is fairly level or straight across on the leg, means a greater chance of passing on the white. Also, if they have white on their chins (in addition to the face), they have a greater chance of passing it on. If anyone has any advice on this, I'd greatly appreciate it. It would help me narrow down my search. But any suggestions are also welcome! Thanks again!
 

Rowena S.
Neonate
Username: Rowena

Post Number: 6
Registered: 04-2011
Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 03:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hedgerow, I've been thinking about what you said in your post earlier. Is there any way to guesstimate if a TB mare carries the sabino gene just by looking at their markings, or do you have to test for it? I've never given any thought to color genes until now, so am trying to learn all I can. Personally, I'm completely ambivalent about whether a horse has any white markings or not, but I have to think about what would be more sellable down the road.
 

Mylitta
Neonate
Username: Mylitta

Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2011
Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 07:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In Arabians, the Sabino gene usually shows up on the stockings as not being even, and having the white go upwards, like an arrow, sometimes the white is above the knee, but not always. The upward white color usually indicates the Sabino gene. Also, with this gene there can be white under the chin, and on the lip. Sometimes the blaze continues down to the lip and chin. This was told to me by someone who has been breeding Arabians for 25 years, and who also breeds rabicano Arabians.
 

hedgerow pony farm
Breeding Stock
Username: Lotsofponies

Post Number: 182
Registered: 03-2009
Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 11:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If I remember correctly, several years ago there was a woman (Airdrie Stud Farm) that bred sabino TB to sabino Tb and sabino QH she got some "extreme" sabinos, she was quite famous for it. There was an article about her in the QH or Paint Journal, I'll see if I can find it. Her foundation stallion was Airdrie Apache then he was sold to Shadow Mountain Stables. A couple of his get are pictured at
http://www.angelfire.com/on3/TrueColoursFarm/Chestnut_Sabinos.html

Here is some more info on him, he sired a bunch of white foals when bred to sabino mares.
"The sabino white Thoroughbred, unlike overo paints, is not susceptible to Overo Lethal White Syndrome and is not albino." (taken from the article linked below)

An article about one of his white sons. http://www.bloodhorse.com/horse-racing/articles/30257/white-thoroughbred-sire-mo ved-to-lexington#ixzz1JYe0Oygd
http://www.shadowmountainstables.com/airdrie_apache_pedigree.htm

It would be cool to get a sabino mare by Airdrie Apache, they have a lot more white than just stockings.

Here is a picture of my Section B Welsh sabino stallion, he looks to be roan but it is from the sabino gene not the roan gene. I'd try and get mares marked like him. My pony sired one colt that looks just like him.
http://s200.photobucket.com/albums/aa170/hacooke/?action=view&current=Tystrotpic .jpg
 

Rowena S.
Neonate
Username: Rowena

Post Number: 7
Registered: 04-2011
Posted on Friday, April 15, 2011 - 08:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you, Mylitta, for your insight. That pretty much backs up what the other breeder told me, and helps give me a better idea of what to look for in a broodmare.

Hedgerow, thanks for the links. Your pony stallion looks awesome! Too bad I'm not breeding for little guys! I knew the stallion Marquetry is one to look for, and I've found a mare out of the stallion Max's Pal (by Marquetry) for sale, but am having a hard time getting in touch with them. I did not know to also look for the Halo bloodline, so that helps me as well.

Thanks again to everyone for their help and advice. I'm really glad I found this website!
 

Terry Waechter P.R.E. foals
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Watchman

Post Number: 1149
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Saturday, April 16, 2011 - 09:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Last night we got a bay colt with four white socks and a star stripe snip mark. This is very unexpected as he is a PRE pura raza espanola. All his brothers and sisters have the sabino gene which also is very very rare in my breed. I couldn't have been more surprised...I expected the roaning but never never thought we would get all that white. [IMG]http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x58/terryberry_bucket/101_4574.jpg[/IMG]
 

hedgerow pony farm
Breeding Stock
Username: Lotsofponies

Post Number: 183
Registered: 03-2009
Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2011 - 12:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey, where is the picture (not availible), don't be a tease?
 

Holly
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Bonny

Post Number: 2413
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Sunday, April 17, 2011 - 07:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am very interested.. I have a roan mare bred to a black stallion thats from tobiano lines... she has socks I would love for her foal to have socks and blaze....
 

Kim Rose
Weanling
Username: Kleonaptra

Post Number: 35
Registered: 12-2008
Posted on Friday, April 22, 2011 - 08:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From what I've heard about Fresians, they DO have white in them but can only be registered if its a small amount. So if thats true there would be brightly marked Fresians out there that arent registered - their genes would likely still be in the pool though.

My mares a grey part arab with an uneven sock, all of her colts had bright markings and one has a splash of white on his chin and belly. An appaloosa breeder once told me that she 'had colour in her' (she hadnt had any foals at this stage) and if she was bred to appy or paint stallions she'd throw 'true colour'. I have no idea how he knew this just by looking at her.
 

Pam Romjue
Yearling
Username: Pammy

Post Number: 86
Registered: 08-2008
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2011 - 12:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

FHANA and FPS registered friesians are allowed to have a small white star on their head but any other white is frowned upon. There are also 2 different colors of black for them. There is the brown black which fades in the summer and then what my boy is and they call that a blue black and he doesn't fade at all. All of his foals have had small amounts of white. We've bred him to sorrels, bays, blacks and one bay tobiano. The paint mare had a bay colt with a small white spot on his nose. She is bred again this year and I'm very excited to see what color she'll have this year. You can see her under Ready and Waiting 2011 Cami's foal watch.
 

Sarah R
Neonate
Username: Sarah_r

Post Number: 2
Registered: 10-2011
Posted on Monday, October 10, 2011 - 06:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sabino in solid horses is relatively rare. Just because your horse has "high whites" doesn't mean it's carrying the SB1 gene that causes sabino overo. Fresians DO NOT carry SB1 that produce the loud, white markings that you are looking for. The are no "brightly marked fresians." They simply do not exist. They do not posess the genes needed for such color. There are however, fresians with socks, coronets, stockings, stripes, etc. that are not registered, but as far as loud color, that as loud as it gets with fresians.
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 4047
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Monday, October 10, 2011 - 07:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

check this one out...bred to an appy.....2 of my favorite breeds!
http://www.friesianheritage.com/Expos%20&%20Horse%20Fairs/MW%20Horse%20Fair%2020 10/Warrior-Domino_0030-041710.JPG
 

Sarah R
Neonate
Username: Sarah_r

Post Number: 5
Registered: 10-2011
Posted on Monday, October 10, 2011 - 11:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Now THAT is what I call loud! GORGEOUS!



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