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Lethal white gene

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » Lethal white gene « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

tara
Nursing Foal
Username: Tarafawn

Post Number: 11
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Saturday, May 02, 2009 - 12:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We had my APHA mare tested for the Lethal white gene before we had her bred in 2006 because the stallion I wanted to breed to was a carrier of Lethal white. As most of you know LW foals are a heartbreaking nightmare and I did not want to take a chance on that when a simple test is only $50 dollars through UC DAVIS. My mare was tested negative so we went ahead and bred her to him. We are now trying to get this mare in foal to a different APHA stallion he is also negative for the lethal white gene. Does anyone know if this ups the percentage of breeding stock foals when breeding 2 negative horses?
 

Lynn Bellus
Breeding Stock
Username: Lorilynfarms

Post Number: 663
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Saturday, May 02, 2009 - 02:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You should be ok in getting color. Overos throw some terrifically unique patterns, so stay tuned for a wild ride!
 

Beth
Breeding Stock
Username: Beth13

Post Number: 110
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Sunday, May 03, 2009 - 01:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tara, I imagine it would. The less horses that carry this gene the better and the more responsible breeders like yourself who test their horses before they breed them will only help the breed for future generations to come.
 

Kathee McGuire
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Katheekj

Post Number: 1270
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Sunday, May 03, 2009 - 12:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not sure I know the answer to your question, but just for clarity - it is really not the Lethal White gene. It is the Frame pattern gene which can produce magnificent spotted horses when only one parent passes the gene.
http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d106/katheekj/Southern%20Breeze/Babies%20and%2 0Bling/runningbabyhorses05-05-08026.jpg
The problem occurs when you breed horses that both carry that gene and they both pass the gene which creates a homozygous Frame known as Lethal White - 100% fatal. The Frame expression can hide and anyone breeding paints should really have this test conducted on their mare/stallion. If the mare does carry the gene, insist on proof he stallion doesn't or find another stallion (or vice versa depending on which you own). As long as one parent doesn't carry the gene, everything is fine and you can produce a beautiful pattern.

(Message edited by katheekj on May 03, 2009)
 

Joanne Thronberg
Neonate
Username: Jojocountry

Post Number: 10
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Sunday, May 03, 2009 - 06:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree..I had my one mare bred to a minimal paints stud..he only had a wide blaze , high socks and a small spot on his side. My mare did not catch but the owner let me know that she had a foal that following spring with lethal white (which she had to put down) from him and a overo mare.She had previously had 2 other foals from this match that were fine.She was very upset as she did not know either one of her horses had the gene. She sold the stallion making sure it was known that he had the gene. He was still young enough and had a wonderful temperment that he could be gelded and broken to ride. I am testing my mares so that I know if I have to be careful with future studs.
 

Ad TB
Breeding Stock
Username: Ajvtbs

Post Number: 753
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Sunday, May 03, 2009 - 06:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know nothing about colour but I find this discussion interesting. What is the lethal white gene and why do the foals always die?
 

Kathee McGuire
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Katheekj

Post Number: 1275
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Sunday, May 03, 2009 - 07:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The gene commonly called Lethal White gene is really the Frame Overo gene. It is fine when only one copy is passed. The problem is when two copies are passed creating a homozygous Frame with Lethal White syndrome. The foal is born a solid white which is the first clue. It appears healthy in all respects except that it will have an underdeveloped digestive tract that will prohibit it from being able to remove any waste. It is a genetic deformity that has no cure as of yet and the any option is to euthanize the foal before it dies a painful death within a day or two. That is the answer to what happens - they do not know why it happens.

It is completely preventable by making sure both parents do not carry the gene - one parent is not a problem and I hope she didn't geld him just for that reason. Where breeders were making mistakes was they were assessing whether or not the horse carried the gene based on the phenotype - physical expression and not the genotype - actual genetic testing. Frames are usually easy to spot like my example of the black and white frame http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d106/katheekj/Southern%20Breeze/Babies%20and%2 0Bling/runningbabyhorses05-05-08026.jpg
Her dark color "frames" the white on each side. The white doesn't cross over the back - the legs are dark and extensive white facial marking called "baldface". If you could see her chest and throat, you would know they were black like her rear. However, the gene can occasionally be almost completely unexpressed and the horse appear as a solid. Relying on this visual inpection is what causes two Frames to be bred.
 

Ad TB
Breeding Stock
Username: Ajvtbs

Post Number: 754
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Sunday, May 03, 2009 - 07:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for that Kathee, very interesting. Can there be healthy solid white foals born that don't have lethal white syndrome?
 

Kathee McGuire
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Katheekj

Post Number: 1278
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Sunday, May 03, 2009 - 07:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not from the Frame color. When the foal get the gene from each parent it is always solid white and always lethal. Two Sabinos can produce a solid white foal or a Frame and Sabino combination. They are not very common to be totally white. Usually they will have a spot of color on them somewhere or some shading in the mane/tail.
http://search.aol.com/aol/imageDetails?s_it=imageDetails&q=maximum+expressed+sab ino&img=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.adhorse.com%2Fuploadimages%2F23467.jpg&site=&host=http% 3A%2F%2Fwww.colouredcontacts.co.uk%2Fhorseforsale_23467.html&width=127&height=95 &thumbUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fimages-partners-tbn.google.com%2Fimages%3Fq%3Dtbn%3A3l2h6 oRLRqC8XM%3Awww.adhorse.com%2Fuploadimages%2F23467.jpg&b=image%3Fq%3Dmaximum%252 0expressed%2520sabino&imgHeight=336&imgWidth=448&imgTitle=%3Cb%3EMaximum%3C%2Fb% 3E+%3Cb%3Eexpressed%3C%2Fb%3E+%3Cb%3ESabino%3C%2Fb%3E+...&imgSize=130359&hostNam e=www.colouredcontacts.co.uk

This is a pic I found on the internet. They look like grays, but do not carry the gray gene. (Hows that for a long address!)
 

Ad TB
Breeding Stock
Username: Ajvtbs

Post Number: 755
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Sunday, May 03, 2009 - 08:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know there are white TB that are albino but there are also ones born pure white that are not albino. Is it only paint horses that carry this lethal white gene?
http://i629.photobucket.com/albums/uu16/AdTB/patchenbeauty_newcolt1.jpg
http://i629.photobucket.com/albums/uu16/AdTB/whitehorse21.jpg

Sorry for all the questions, I'm clueless!
 

Kathee McGuire
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Katheekj

Post Number: 1279
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Sunday, May 03, 2009 - 08:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes - just the Frame Overo Paint and they are not albino. If a parent carries the gene, there is a 50/50 chance of passing which is not a problem. Two parents with the gene create a 25% chance of a lethal white. Also, the maximum expressed sabino is not an albino.
 

Kathee McGuire
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Katheekj

Post Number: 1281
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Sunday, May 03, 2009 - 09:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Addie - here is an article you may appreciate on Lethal White. It was written regarding a specific case of a paint and QH breeding where the QH was considered a solid color. It's gets a little too "medical" in some parts for me to completely follow but it does a really good job of explaining the issue. It gives more detail as to what is wrong with the intestinal tract.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=339559
 

Emily West, Zita born 4/12
Breeding Stock
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 842
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 03, 2009 - 11:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kathee, is right. Lethal White Overo is actually the frame gene so we don't want it bred out of our horses. The problem isn't that this gene exists the problem is when breeders breed two carriers whether knowingly or not.

Tara, there is no simple answer to your question without more information. You said they were both negative but didn't mention if they were Solid, Sabino, Splash, or Tobiano? If they are both Pinto Patterned then it won't really change your chance.

I'd love to see pictures of both the mare and stallion!!
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 2249
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Monday, May 04, 2009 - 12:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ad TB, lets add to the dilemma by answering your question with this:
There is also a lethal ROAN....
 

Kathee McGuire
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Katheekj

Post Number: 1284
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, May 04, 2009 - 02:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Really?! I don't know that one....time to start researching! Does it follow the same concept? How do you test for it or avoid it?
 

Ad TB
Breeding Stock
Username: Ajvtbs

Post Number: 758
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Monday, May 04, 2009 - 03:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lethal Roan, tell us more. Breeding for colour is beginning to sound dangerous! They better not find a lethal bay gene or all our TB's will be in trouble!
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 2254
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Monday, May 04, 2009 - 04:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.mhref.com/color/genetics/tour/basic8.html
I have read several other articles as well that say recent testing has showed that RN in homozygous form is not lethal....so maybe they're onto something new. Or some new reason the RN foals die.
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 2256
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Monday, May 04, 2009 - 04:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok, in the first place, all of my info on that subject was based on what i've always heard in miniature breeding from the 'old folks'.....haha! That said, here's a quote from a recent article I found on it...
A study published in 1979 examined percentages of roan foals produced by roan parents found fewer than expected for a simple dominant trait. At the time, lethality of genetic conditions was based primarily on statistics, as modern methods of DNA testing and mapping had not yet been developed. [10] Neither finding stillborn or short-lived foals from these roan parents, the researchers concluded that in the homozygous condition the roan gene was lethal to the embryo or fetus. Contemporary studies were beginning to identify conditions such as "dominant white" and "lethal white," and so roan was believed to follow a similar pattern. Genetic science in the 1970s could not provide a clear answer. "Lethal roan" has since been discredited by the identification of homozygous roans and the work of the late Dr. Ann T. Bowling, who found no evidence to suggest that homozygous roan was lethal.
 

Kathee McGuire
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Katheekj

Post Number: 1288
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, May 04, 2009 - 05:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well you raised the question and cleared it up at the same time. Thanks for the information though, next time it comes up I'll feel so very well informed!

Was the article internet based? If so, I would love a link so I can add it to my documentation.
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 2258
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Monday, May 04, 2009 - 06:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kathee, I found that excerpt on http://roanhorse.net
then, while going back to find it, i found this site that is pretty informative as well on different genetics and coat colors
http://www.horse-genetics.com/roan-horses.html
 

Kathee McGuire
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Katheekj

Post Number: 1292
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, May 04, 2009 - 06:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks - roan is one of the genes I have not researched at all. I just check them out as I meet a horse with a certain coloring...usually sparks my interest and I start checking it out. When I was looking at the Leopard gene and it was making a specific distriction between the Varnished Roan and a Roan being two totally separate genotypes, I had decided roan would be my next project.
 

Andrea Barnes
Weanling
Username: Pf_pony

Post Number: 42
Registered: 03-2009
Posted on Tuesday, May 05, 2009 - 11:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just wanted to concur with Diana and say breeders who knowingly breed two frame horses together to "up their chances" of getting color can't do simple math. If you breed non carrier to carrier, you have 50% chance color and 50% no color.
If you breed two carriers, you have 50% chance color, 25% no color and 25% dead. So in reality, you still get 50% color and 50% no color as the second 25% won't count anyway as it'll be dead.
I just shake my head when I see that arguement used by supposedly "knowledable" breeders.

Oh... lethal white foals can have a spot of color on them sometimes. Mostly the tail from what I've seen. But they're not always pure white.

Off my soap box now. It's just a touchy subject as I can't imagine doing something like that on purpose.
 

tara
Nursing Foal
Username: Tarafawn

Post Number: 16
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Tuesday, May 05, 2009 - 04:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Emily , My mare is a Min white Overo trainer said she is considered "Splash" she has a small belly spot but her face is what qualified her. The stallion is a bay overo considered splash.Before we bred this mare the first time I asked a vet that just came fresh out of UC Davis about the lethal roan gene and he said he had heard about this but they did studies and no evidence was found that this is true.
 

Kathee McGuire
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Katheekj

Post Number: 1309
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 05, 2009 - 05:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tara - are you talking about a Lethal Roan gene or the Lethal White?
 

Emily West, Zita born 4/12
Breeding Stock
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 843
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Wednesday, May 06, 2009 - 12:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tara,
With them both being Splash you have a 75% chance of getting some color. Good Luck!!
 

Andrea Barnes
Weanling
Username: Pf_pony

Post Number: 43
Registered: 03-2009
Posted on Thursday, May 07, 2009 - 03:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Please remember horses can carry more than one gene... You could have a horse with splash, LWO, tobiano and sabino in one horse. It's always safer to just test.
 

tara
Nursing Foal
Username: Tarafawn

Post Number: 20
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Saturday, May 09, 2009 - 05:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Emily- I posted a bunch of pictures of my mare and her 2007 filly by APHA stallion Just Zippin Around in the roan gene section that I started .The stallion we are trying to get her in foal to is APHA ALL TIME FANCY. I would post pictures of him but not sure if I could get in trouble for copyright stuff.. But he has a website just google apha all time fancy to see him:-)
 

tara
Weanling
Username: Tarafawn

Post Number: 21
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Saturday, May 09, 2009 - 05:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HI Kathee - I was originally talking about the Lethal white gene when I started the thread. When I re posted and said my vet said he had heard of "lethal roan" but they have done studies and found no evidence that it is a gene that actually exists I was talking about the "Lethal Roan " Diana had mentioned earlier in the thread that there is also a lethal roan gene. I have asked several vets about it and they have heard of people talking about it but all say no evidence has ever been found that proves there is a "Lethal Roan" gene.... I was worried about it before but not now:-) Hope this answers your question..
 

Joanne Thronberg
Nursing Foal
Username: Jojocountry

Post Number: 11
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Friday, May 15, 2009 - 12:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just got the results back on my two paint mares and they both have the lethal white gene. I am glad I got them tested as now I know that I have to be careful which paint studs I breed them to.Unfortunately when I asked the owners of the few paint studs around here if they had the lethal white gene they did not know..so obviously had never been tested.
 

tara
Weanling
Username: Tarafawn

Post Number: 23
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Friday, May 15, 2009 - 01:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good for you getting both tested! Honestly it saves a lot of heartache and expenses...
 

Kathee McGuire
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Katheekj

Post Number: 1382
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Friday, May 15, 2009 - 07:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Joanne - as you select the studs for breeding, it would be worth your while to pay the $25 or $50 and submit their hair for testing so you know for sure if the stallion owner isn't willing to pay.

Or, breeding to a solid could produce some spectacular results!
 

Joanne Thronberg
Nursing Foal
Username: Jojocountry

Post Number: 12
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Friday, May 15, 2009 - 11:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They are both bred to a bay QH right now so I'll see what the foals turn out like..The stud is really nice and quiet with good blood lines so I may just breed them back to him..I am just hoping for some colour..
 

Kathee McGuire
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Katheekj

Post Number: 1385
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Friday, May 15, 2009 - 11:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You have a 50/50 chance with either so odds are that one will produce!

What colors do you mares carry?
 

Joanne Thronberg
Nursing Foal
Username: Jojocountry

Post Number: 13
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Saturday, May 16, 2009 - 10:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

chey is a chestnut but her dad was a grey..she had two smoky grey frame overos and one solid palimino foals from a perlino stud. cowgirl is a sorrel.http://s405.photobucket.com/albums/pp134/jojocountry_album
 

Kathee McGuire
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Katheekj

Post Number: 1387
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Saturday, May 16, 2009 - 01:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Very beautiful girls!! I am guessing that Chey is greying out in addition to all of her white. Correct?

Cowgirl is one of those mares that her frame pattern gets confused for sabino, but she lacks the white legs.

How far along are they?
 

Joanne Thronberg
Nursing Foal
Username: Jojocountry

Post Number: 14
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Saturday, May 16, 2009 - 03:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chey is the dark one with the least white...cowgirl has the most white and is a light sorrel...in the pictures they were around 270 but they are at the 300 day mark now
 

tara
Weanling
Username: Tarafawn

Post Number: 25
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2009 - 02:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I took a college class on Equine Science. Well I was reading through the book and it was printed in 2003 its called THE HORSE Second edition. They have a article in it on Lethal Roan, RN this is what the section says on it right out of the book thought I would share...

The gene causing roan appears to be lethal when homozygous.As with lethal dominate white , a breeder of roans may not be aware of the problem because the RnRn fetus apparently dies early in fetal development. The homozygote can result only from mating of two roans. Thus, roan by solid matings would not show a reduced fertility rate whereas one fourth of roan by roan matings would result in a lethal embryo which would lower the apparent conception rate.

I found this interesting and would like to get to the bottom of it as I like I mentioned before I have been told by vets this isn't true. Just thought I would share.
 

Kathee McGuire
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Katheekj

Post Number: 1407
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2009 - 06:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Tara - you are right about that publication. It gets it's data from a study done in the 70's. It was in 2000-2004 that UC Davis equine department released the results of a study that they claim proves the early study incorrect. There is no test for homozygous roan so the debate will continue. The closest test there is uses a stallions foal crop where roan was always produced. Hancock Horses claim to have several homozygous stallions.
 

tara
Weanling
Username: Tarafawn

Post Number: 28
Registered: 04-2009
Posted on Sunday, May 17, 2009 - 10:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Kathee for that info... makes me feel a little better..



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