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Palomino from sorrel/bay?

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » Palomino from sorrel/bay? « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Becki Robins
Neonate
Username: Betony1

Post Number: 1
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 11:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello, I have an equine color genetics mystery I'm hoping someone can help solve.

I have a palomino paint gelding, and I'm curious about what color his parents might have been. I know they were both paints and I know from searching for him on the AllBreedPedigree database that his grandparents on his sire's side were a sorrel tobiano stallion and a sorrel mare (which I read can only produce sorrel or sorrel tobiano), and that his grandparents on his dam's side were a bay stallion and a sorrel tobiano mare. Now according to the color genetics calculator at http://www.animalgenetics.us/CCalculator1.asp those combinations wouldn't produce a palomino, so I'm stumped as to how he came into the picture with those genetics.

He does have a lot of palomino on his dam's side, but that's back four generations. One of the mares listed in his pedigree (a great-grandmother) does not have a color listed, so I suppose it's possible she could have been a palomino, but otherwise his recent pedigree is mainly sorrels and bays, some paints some not.

Could there be some throwback gene that popped up from four generations ago? Or maybe the records are just incorrect? I've heard that some palominos are dark enough to be mistaken for sorrels.

Thanks!
Betony
 

Dee Jay
Breeding Stock
Username: Djscoloredcorral

Post Number: 115
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Saturday, February 21, 2009 - 11:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For the palomino to carry a dilute (creme) gene, it would have to have a parent that carried a dilute gene and passed it on. This would mean that one of its parents was misidentified on its papers. Two sorrels cannot produce anything but a sorrel. It is possible that one of the sorrels was actually a dark palomino. Normally foals are registered early, usually before they are 4 months old and we all know how colors can change once a foal coat is shed out in the yearling year. My guess is that one of the sorrels was actually a dark palomino and gave that creme gene to this colt. making it a palomino instead of a sorrel.
 

Becki Robins
Neonate
Username: Betony1

Post Number: 2
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 12:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Dee for your reply. So I think that rules out either of the grandparents on his paternal side being palomino, because his grandfather was a well-known sire with dozens of babies, and the only palominos came from palomino mares. His grandmother came from a long line of sorrels, so it seems unlikely that she could have been a palomino.

On the maternal side his grandfather was a bay, so he can't be the guilty party. That leaves his grandmother, who was listed as a sorrel tobiano. Her sire was a bay and her dam was the "unknown mare."

So now my next question is, if the unknown mare was a palomino and she was bred to a bay, is it possible that their offspring was a dark palomino that was mistaken for a sorrel?

Thank you again!
Betony
 

Dee Jay
Breeding Stock
Username: Djscoloredcorral

Post Number: 116
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 09:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Becki:

Do you know what the parents of the unknown mare were? There has to be a creme gene lurking there someplace. The only color that can hide creme is black. Lots of blacks are actually smokey blacks which nobody notices until they start siring palominos and buckskins where none should exist.

Therefore, since there are no other cremes in the line, the palomino has to have come from the maternal side, most likely the unknown mare color.

Can you search back farther to find out of this unknown mare had any creme in her pedigree - either a palomino out of a black or a buckskin out of a bay etc.

Yes to answer your question, it is possible to mix up a sorrel and a palomino if the palomino is dark enough or if the foal was registered early before it shed out property to reveal its true color. A palomino would have the genetic make up of eeCr and the bay would be EeAa or EeAA, so yes it is possible to get a palomino from that cross and if it was dark enough, for someone to assume it was a sorrel.

It would have been interesting to see foal picture of this horse and then more when it was a yearling, two year old etc. It is very easy to mistake color on a foal.

I myself had a foal born out of a bay and buckskin cross that everyone said was a bay, except one person. That foal was born so dark that I was sure she was bay too.

Here is her newborn picture:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/canadianhorselady/102_6170Small.jpg


And here she is last fall at an APHA show in Quebec.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/canadianhorselady/2008sierrall02Small.jpg


Here is a picture of a palomino tovero colt born Feb 7th this year out of my perlino tobiano stallion. Mare was a sorrel overo.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/canadianhorselady/PoulainK090209002Small.jpg

and this is my stallion:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/canadianhorselady/Woody79-8x10Small.jpg

There is obviously a creme gene hiding someplace in the pedigree for your horse to be a palomino, and it looks like it is in the maternal side back a few generations that has caused many of the resulting horses to be registered as sorrel when they were actually a very dark palomino.
 

Becki Robins
Neonate
Username: Betony1

Post Number: 3
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 05:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you again, your horses are beautiful! I don't unfortunately know who the unknown mare's parents are ... here is the pedigree as it's recorded on AllBreedPedigree.com. I don't have access to the APHA database or it might be useful to double check some of the colors, as I know the AllBreedPedigree database is sometimes incomplete or inaccurate.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/denver+pawnee

I tried Googling my gelding's grandmother and her sire, but there's nothing online besides what I found at that site.

Betony
 

Dee Jay
Breeding Stock
Username: Djscoloredcorral

Post Number: 117
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 09:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have APHA access . What is the registered name of your gelding and I will look it up. With quarterhorses, I am not sure whether the colors are recorded or not, but will let you know once I have a name to start with.
 

Becki Robins
Neonate
Username: Betony1

Post Number: 4
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Sunday, February 22, 2009 - 11:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dee, thank you! His registered name is Denver Pawnee. Sire: Denver; Dam: Miranda Gal.

Thanks again!!
 

Dee Jay
Breeding Stock
Username: Djscoloredcorral

Post Number: 118
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 12:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Becki:

According to the APHA, the sire Denver is registered as a sorrel tobiano, the Dam, Miranda Gal is registered as a palomino.

Mirandas line, says that her sire was Pawnee Watrus, a Bay QH, and Miranda the Dam was registered as a sorrel, which cant be correct for her foal Miranda Gal to be a palomino. hmmm..

Going back another generation, we get the sire Dipsy Red Bar, a bay QH, and then the unregistered Mare out of two unregistered horses, an unregistered thoroughbred sire, and an unregistered paint mare. These unregistered horses are where the problem lies as we dont have any color information or pedigree information to go on. Unless you know someone with AQHA access or ownership info on any of these horses you might be at a dead end as to figuring out exactly where the creme gene came from, but at least we know that Miranda Gal was a palomino, and looking at her picture, a very pretty one too.

Dee
 

Becki Robins
Neonate
Username: Betony1

Post Number: 5
Registered: 02-2009
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 01:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dee, thank you again. You have been a huge help. It's good to at least have it narrowed down to that unknown mare.

I didn't realize the APHA database had pictures ... I have no pictures of any of Denver's ancestors until the fourth generation back. Do all the records have photos or just some of them? Is there a short-term subscription option for non-members or do you need to be an APHA member in order to access the database?

Thank you again!!!
 

Dee Jay
Breeding Stock
Username: Djscoloredcorral

Post Number: 119
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 07:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Becki:

The APHA has an *apha plus* membership option which gives you access to pedigrees with pictures. There is a picture of Denver Pawnee ,his sire and dam only on the pedigree info page. Unfortunately the website does not allow you to copy and paste the pictures or I would have posted them on this site for you to see.
 

Dee Jay
Breeding Stock
Username: Djscoloredcorral

Post Number: 120
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Monday, February 23, 2009 - 08:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Becki:

I managed to copy and save the pedigree with pictures to a pdf file. Email me and I will send the file to you for your records.

djscoloredcorral@sympatico.ca

Dee
 

Dee Jay
Breeding Stock
Username: Djscoloredcorral

Post Number: 126
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Tuesday, February 24, 2009 - 08:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Becki:

I sent the pedigree info on Denver, Denver Pawnee,Miranda Gal and Reo with progeny reports and pictures to your email. Hope you received them ok.

D



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