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In-breeding

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » In-breeding « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Jennifer Shedosky
Neonate
Username: Jen_s

Post Number: 1
Registered: 01-2009
Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 06:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a stud who is stunning and his half sister also stunning. They have different sires, same mare who I own. She is grey, both offspring are not (one palomino, one bay). Is this too close breed? I can't find a fault with the sister, the dam of both is a little close behind and has had a melanoma. The stud has a mildly turned out back foot, but pretty good conformation other than that. All of them have SUPER temperment, great movement and tough feet.
 

Michelle Bee
Breeding Stock
Username: Michellej

Post Number: 348
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 10:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Jennifer. Line breeding can be successful when the family members have impeccable conformation and the qualities they share genetically are the ones a breeder would want. It has been done very successfully with TB's particularly with Nasrullah and Northern Dancer lines. In the situation you describe, the potential dam and sire share genes of their dam who is close in behind and has melanoma. The potential stud also has a conformational error. I believe the likely outcome would be a foal who has these undesireable traits amplified.
 

Michele
Breeding Stock
Username: Mich

Post Number: 128
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2009 - 10:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well said Michelle.
I wouldn't do line breeding unless the the horses had absolutely no visible conformational errors AND I would also get the opinion of a variety of conformational experts.
The best way to do this is to show the horses in halter / in hand classes at as many big shows as possible in their breed classes and in general breed classes where you should get unbiased critiques. What show record do the parents have? If they are unknowns I would absolutely not even think about line breeding - there would be no point.

(Message edited by Mich on January 15, 2009)
 

Terry Waechter P.R.E. foals
Breeding Stock
Username: Watchman

Post Number: 382
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Friday, January 16, 2009 - 01:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Line breeding is a very tricky business and not for the faint of heart. I think you must be able to deal with a failure (heart, mind and pocketbook). Having said that I have line bred twice with good results however, I was copying a very well established line with proven results. The stallion was line bred within many generations and had a significant stamp. It worked for me however I have my heart in my throat when I think about doing it again....Terry
 

amber roberts
Neonate
Username: Circlerstallionstation

Post Number: 2
Registered: 05-2009
Posted on Tuesday, February 23, 2010 - 07:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jennifer,
I call the Pitzer ranch back in 2006 and asked what was the diffrence in "Line Breeding" "in-breeding" and the diffrence to "shotgun breeding" was and the response was its called LINE BREEDING when it works and INBREEDING when it doesnt, and if you look up the Pitzer Ranch you will see they have done a fairly good job on stamping the Two Eyed Jack horses by being careful on what they out cross. the Winscamp ranch linebred his SkipperW horses and he culled out and disposed of(putting down) any foals that were not of standard. You linebreed horses because they show a trait you want stamped in the resulting foals that is how lines become desriable such as the cutting horses for example: alot all of them have Doc Bar due to the Smart Little Lena horse his sire Doc O'Lena and Lena Jewels bars because of his sons Colonel Freckles and Freckles Playboy. Peppysanbadger is another one that has came across on both top and bottom sides on cutting horse pedigrees, however if you do check on gentic defects one that is becoming common in the cutting industry is Herda and they are trying to see where this came from. Many people know of HYPP is found in Impressive horses, he was linbred Threebars. Halter people line bred Imrpessive due to his strong traits of confromtion correctness and muscle mass he produces(what I have been told in my dealings with halter horse trainers), you can tell an impressive horse from a SkipperW horse because this line breeding stamped them. You can tell a Smartlittle Lena horse a Colonels Smoking Gun(Gunner) horse....Smartlittlelena horses tend to be finer boned and long lean faces, Gunner produces big boned, solid built horses, the gunners make great reiners and the smartlittlelena horses have become proven in both the cutting and reining pens. I love the CD Olena horses they have pretty faces and most Doc Olena mares have that pretty head as well (I am trying to add two CD Olena mares to my heard). Now what is "shot gun"? As the pitzer ranch calls it, its taking two highly proven horses that have no simluar blood and breeding them hoping for a great horse, because example breed a TB to a QH race horse and hoping for speed, or say breeding Skipper W to King Fritz mare and hoping for a cute little foundation bred horse with great conformation, it may or may not work(im sure there is a better example out there). So my personal opion if I was looking at breeding a certian mares two foals,If the mare has had several foals that have faults that are simlar like not perfect legs, or foals either have to long of back or too short of a back, I wouldnt breed the two half siblings, because chances are your legs will be messed up, or the backs on the colts will be wrong. I wouldn't cross two horses that have produced foals with really straight sholders if I want a sloped shoulder.... these are basic breeding priciples that apply weather your linebreeding, inbreeding, or shot gunning. If I had a mare that tends to produce staright sholder colts Id breed her to a stud that is proven to produce sloppy sholders, just as Id wan that stud to produce low hocked colts because my mare does a great job of producing that as well and in cutting and reining you want low hocks. If your looking at linebreeding contact ranches that have proven results.
 

Jodi Chapman
Neonate
Username: Qhlady1970

Post Number: 1
Registered: 03-2010
Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 - 09:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi - I am new to the board and I have question about foal color. I think I am jumping the gun, and will either have to have him tested or wait until he sheds - but AQHA needs a color on the registration request..lol My boy Jack has a black mane, black in his tail, and black on the tips of his ears. However, he has 4 white socks and no black below the knees-he is brown like a fawn. His dam is bay - out of a red dun sire and brown mare. His sire is a red roan overo. I've checked the combinations, and I am still at a loss as to why he has some black points, but none on his legs. I appreciate any help and will upload some pics of him. Thanks!
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 3009
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 - 10:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If the white socks have silver above them, that silver will turn black when he sheds out. He's most likely a bay just like mom.
 

Michelle Clarke
Neonate
Username: Cabacha

Post Number: 2
Registered: 03-2010
Posted on Friday, April 02, 2010 - 05:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I utilize both linebreeding and even some inbreeding in our program. Since I do alot of crossbreeding, I tend to choose bloodlines that are linebred with the traits I desire so when I outcross them I am more likely to get these strong traits passed.

I have been researching methods of both for fifteen years now and it is commonly used in many other countries, especially Latin ones. I have spoke with countless breeders and vets abroad...especially on the subject of keeping the stallions traits strong for a prepotent sire.

For example, a common formula for creating a good stallion that will stamp those babies (positively if you have choosen your breeding stock right), is to start with your main stallion, breed him to four mares. From those pairings, choose two pairs of males/females to breed. From those pairings, choose one male/female and a colt from that result should be pretty consistant and predictable when they are bred.

To "reproduce" a stallion, you either breed him to his mother or daughter. You will also see your recessives, whether good or bad with these pairings.

I have bred half siblings together with great results, which these are the horses I desire to stay in the breeding program for outcrossing later on. I have also bred sire to daughter for the first time and the foal is expected next month. Personally, this is not something I want to do often. I have seen alot of son to mother breedings, which honestly, I saw issues in the foals with. The ones I have seen have been either one extreme or the other: quiet and kind of dull or overly sensitive and excitable. I have seen more consistant results with sire to daughter.

Just my experience...!!

http://www.ranchobayo.com
 

Gypsy Cob
Nursing Foal
Username: Gypsy_cob

Post Number: 14
Registered: 01-2010
Posted on Sunday, October 17, 2010 - 10:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Are there any really good books on the subject of successful line breeding?



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