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Black/white overo stud and mare = completely white foal, Jos??

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » Black/white overo stud and mare = completely white foal, Jos?? « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 448
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 09:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just got a picture from a friend of mine who owns a black and white loud colored overo mare that just had her third foal - a completely white filly. The stallion is also a black and white loud colored overo. Naturally when I heard completely white I thought Lethal, but apparently the vet has been out and checked the foal, it pooped and seems fine. It has blue eyes and no color at all. How is this possible?

The vet told the mare owner that the filly was a perlino, but this is impossible unless both parents carry a cream gene which they do not as the mare last year had a black and white overo filly and the year before an almost completely black filly. Neither parent is a smokey and no cream genes in the pedigree.

Jos, any ideas what is going on here? The owner says the filly has a few strands of black hair in its tail but is otherwise completely white. He sent me one picture on his cell phone camera but it only shows the filly lying down from the back with the mare standing over it.

Im completely shocked at how this color could occur without the filly being a lethal white.

Any ideas? The owner was hoping for a loud black/white again like last year.

Deb
 

Kim Peavy/ Sweetie 7/3/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Lovemysinbad

Post Number: 172
Registered: 09-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 09:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does it have coloring on it's skin underneath? I've seen some that look all white, but when wet, they have the paint coloring? Just a thought....very strange...I'd love to see a pix
 

Bobbi Govro
Breeding Stock
Username: Hh_farms

Post Number: 342
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 09:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lethal whites can act and be fine for several weeks. Just a thought.
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 449
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 10:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have never heard of a lethal white living for several weeks. It has been my experience from others who dare to breed overo to overo that these lethals live a mere few hours and die horrible painful deaths.

Here is the picture I received last night of the filly.

Also, the vet said to this mare owner ...you have a beautiful little perlino... totally impossible so this vet is obviously not up on the genetics end of the horse breeding business.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/canadianhorselady/whitefilly.jpg

Deb
 

Bobbi Govro
Breeding Stock
Username: Hh_farms

Post Number: 345
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 10:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Debbie: I happen to own a frame overo so I have done alot of homework to avoid breeding combinations that would result in lethal whites. (It is interesting the research that is being done with these genetics). Typically, you are correct, most lethal white foals are affected within 12 hours of birth. I personally had a best friend who ended up with a lethal white and it actually lived for two weeks before it started showing signs and then it went downhill quickly. I also read an article a few months back on a family who got their lethal white to live for 3 months! There is so much about this syndrome that we have yet to understand.

I would be more inclined to agree with the vet...it is probably not a true "white" but rather the perlino. Which, by the way, is a real awesome trait. I know in my area, the perlino horses go for a nice chunk of change!
 

Bobbi Govro
Breeding Stock
Username: Hh_farms

Post Number: 346
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 10:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Deb: Sorry...i re-read your post about the mare/stallion color combinations. Hmmmm...you are right in that these two colors shouldn't have produced a perlino or for that fact, a cremello foal. It usually takes at least one light colored parent to produce a light colored foal.

However...a cremello can be produced as a result of a double dilute of chestnut/sorrel. A perlino can be produced as a result of a double dilute of bay/brown.

I thought you might want to know what about the double dilutes...it really doesn't match up to the whole theory of the "one parent must carry the cream gene"

I would be very interested to know the color genetics of the mare & sire's parents. Might be able to somewhat figure it out from there.

My tobiano solid mare was registered as a "brown"...she is, in appearance, a black...at 5 years old, this year when she shed off she is now a roan...we just updated her registration for the color change. APHA told me not to be surprised if within a few years she actually grays out...bizarre genes these paints have!
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 264
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 11:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It could be maximally expressed sabino.With the black hair in the tail that would be my bet.
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 450
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 12:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is another shot of the filly this morning. Everything seems ok so far. Im still worried its a Lethal, and if not a lethal, a non-lethal white which I just read is also possible.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/canadianhorselady/whitefilly2.jpg

I dont know anything about a maximally expressed sabino I will have to read up on that one and send that guess along to the owner.
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 451
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 12:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bobbi: I own a perlino homozygous tobiano stallion out of a smokey black and buckskin. He is now 3 and standing at stud in my area and shipping into the states. Ive done quite a bit of research on the dilutes and double dilutes as this is our specialty at DJS Colored Corral. I own a Bay, which I got a buckskin filly out of last year crossed with a buckskin stud, and this year got another buckskin, a colt, out of my bay and perlino stud.

You can see him at www.djscoloredcorral.com

I dont own or breed any overos but I do love the look of them with the loud white patterns. I dont know much about sabinos either but am off to do some research on what Cathy guessed as a maximally expressed sabino.

I hope this little filly is not a lethal though with two black and white overos crossed with no info on whether either carries the LWO gene, this little girl has a 25% chance of being just that. The mare owner bought the mare just a few weeks back and has not had her long enough to test her. I did mention that he should contact the stallion owner to see if he has been tested. Both mare and stallion are APHA registered, so I will get registration info on them and do some pedigree research to see what colors are in their pedigrees

Deb
 

Jan Owen
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 1480
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 01:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Debbie~Wow~So lucky that they have you as a friend. She is darling...Fingers, toes, and everything crossed that she is not a lethal white and that she will grow and be strong. Very exciting if she does. Keep us posted!
 

Catherine Owen
Breeding Stock
Username: Cateowen

Post Number: 221
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 01:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That is a precious little girl. I hope all goes okay with her. I know very little about lethal white, but wanted to express what a pretty little gal I think she is. Could she be an albino since she has the blue eyes, etc.? But it looks to me like her skin may be "darkish" and therefore that isn't an albino, right?

Since I know so little about lethal white, I'm probably asking stupid questions. What little I have read about it, I too always thought "lethal white" was an immediate death sentence very early on.

I think she is striking and have always thought that a truly white horse would be awesome to have (except for the clean-up :-)

(Message edited by cateowen on April 29, 2008)
 

Marilyn Lemke - Dora due 7/31/08
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 1279
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 01:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think albino is all white with pink or red eyes, or am I wrong. Hmmmm....
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 452
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 02:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was thinking the same thing Marilyn.. this little girl has beautiful blue eyes. Im totally perplexed and hope shes not a lethal but maybe a nonlethal white or the max sabino cathy mentionned. The owner is very excited with this new baby and I would be heartbroken to hear that it had to be put down in the next 12 hours. I guess I will wait for the next email.

Deb
 

Bobbi Govro
Breeding Stock
Username: Hh_farms

Post Number: 349
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 06:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Deb: You are correct...paints can have a "white" foal and it not be lethal...but extremely rare. I have an Overo Stallion so I am very cautious about breeding arrangements with the potential of the lethal white. That would be why my paint mares are tobianos...so I can rule out that possibility.

The problem I understand with Sabinos and other "paint mixture/combinations" is the risk that they may not be registered correctly and still carry that overo gene. In fact some solids could carry the overo gene and outwardly you may not be able to detect it.

I'm just beating my brain trying to figure out how you would get a white from a black/white overo and black/white overo without it being a lethal white...but these paints are so tricky and there is still so much to be learned about the workings of their genetics.

Keep me posted Debbie...I have my fingers crossed for her!
 

Emily West, Zita born 4/12
Breeding Stock
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 641
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 06:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bobbi,
My tobiano stud carries the lethal white gene. Something I found out about him after I bought him. I was aware of the gene but unaware that 10% of tobianos carry it too. Also I believe that the biggest carriers are frame overos. So sabinos might not be as likely to carry the gene. And yes, many Paints carry overo genes without showing it. It does get kind of tricky. :-)
 

Phyllis Schroder
Yearling
Username: Shadowbend

Post Number: 67
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 07:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think I'd have to go with Cathy on this one and believe that it's most likely a maximum expression of the sabino gene.
Even more rare is the occasional true white, a horse that is born white and remains so throughout life without any change of color. I guess you would consider this the closest thing to an albino since there is no true albinoism in horses.
I love equine color genetics, but they can sure throw you for a loop now and then.
Keeping my fingers crossed it's anything but the LW.
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 265
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 07:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Debbie have you heard if the foal is still doing well?
 

Jan Owen
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 1495
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2008 - 07:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes Debbie we would love an udate and new pics....
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 455
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, May 02, 2008 - 03:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I got an email from the owner this morning before I headed out to work. The little filly died yesterday. She was fine all this time, then started to bloat and went downhill within 3 hours she had passed away. Vet told him that she just shut down.
Poor guy I feel so bad for him. I wonder if the previous breeder knew the mare was LWO positive, and it was also her stallion the mare was bred to. Obviously both are LWO carriers. Id like to find out if this stallion and mare have lost other foals and the previous owner just didnt tell him.

This guy bought the mare only 2 weeks ago. Why would a breeder sell a mare in foal with only two weeks to go? I have lots of questions about this person and the history on the mare and stallion, but its a little too late now.

A horrible ordeal for the new owner. I would guess he will never breed this mare to another overo knowing now that his mare is a carrier of the lethal white gene.

Im glad he has one more mare to foal, a grulla QH so hopefully nothing will go wrong with that one.
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 266
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, May 02, 2008 - 03:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am so sorry for your friend. I was hoping so bad it was something besides LW.
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 457
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, May 02, 2008 - 03:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We are all hoping you were right with your guess of Maximal sabino Cathy. It did give the mare owner a little bit of hope that he would not lose the baby, but it wasnt to be. Such a sad thing.
 

Jane
Breeding Stock
Username: Dizzykizzy

Post Number: 245
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, May 02, 2008 - 05:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh what a terrible sad thing to happen, RIP poor little foalie.
 

Tracy Smith, Tali due 6/08
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 1229
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Friday, May 02, 2008 - 10:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know this is not your friends fault as he only bought the mare and did not breed her but my vent is that it makes me so angry because it is 100% preventable! The previous owners have been completely negligent in not testing their stallion and then breeding to a mare that was not tested.

Sorry for the vent. Please tell your friend I am very sorry he had to go thru this :-(
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 458
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, May 02, 2008 - 11:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree Tracy. I smell a rat in this case. This poor guy didnt have a clue what he was getting into He didnt know about overos or lethals. He was shown two pictures of previous foals out of the same mare and stallion. Its pretty obvious that the previous owner must have known something or he/she wouldnt have sold the mare 2 weeks prior to foaling. Personally I think all overos or any horse for that matter with overo in its background should be required to be tested for LWO and it be on its papers. Its a fault like HYPP and should be on the registration paperwork for any buyer to see before going through this kind of heartache.

What is the most tragic is that I really believe the previous owner knew all the time that this was going to happen When the foal was born he was told it was a rare white and given the opportunity to breed back to the same stallion on the foal heat. Can you imagine the gall? It sickens me to think that this guy was taken in so badly by someone that made a profit at his inexperience and at his expense.
 

corina gabel
Yearling
Username: Newyearsbaby05

Post Number: 67
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2008 - 12:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hey i have a questtion, my stallions mare is overo and his sire is a homo. tobiano. is there a 50% that he carries this as well right? ro is the chance higher?? or will the homo tob. override this? sire is from a long line of homo. tob.'s --- rusty is reg. as a tovero but has no real overo signs. his mothers sire was a result overo-over cross and his mothers dam is QH.

I had compleatly put LW out of mind because he is not a frame by any means. he is a very loud tob. 80 to 85% white.

???? any theorys ???? i will get a blood test if need be but jsut wondering what the thoughts are.


This LW things is scary- i am worried now and we crossed him to a non paint i know no chance but still!
i would be better with losing it at a few hours old but 3 days!! I cried for them that such a thoughtless thing was done. Such a long preg. and short life that could have been avoided to save a few bucks!!!!!
 

Marilyn Lemke - Dora due 7/31/08
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 1298
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2008 - 07:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How sad to lose a life, but not having a chance, sickens me. How can people be so cruel? I feel horrible for the new owners who put their trust in these people, just to get their hearts ripped out. Very tragic!

I definately would want some sort of satisfaction from the previous owners.
 

Laurie A Beltran
Breeding Stock
Username: Prophecy_ranch

Post Number: 192
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2008 - 09:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My Heart goes out to the new owners! May the foal run and play over the rainbow!

Its sickend me to my stomach to know that people can be so cruel, I would think the new owner has some legal ramification on his side!

Seek Legal consel!

I hope his other mare foals a fantastic filly!

L
 

Emily West, Zita born 4/12
Breeding Stock
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 655
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2008 - 09:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Corina,
My homozygous tobiano stud carries the Lethal White Gene. Something I wasn't told before I bought him. From now on even with tobianos I am going to be very careful who I buy. I personally think that every Paint horse should be tested and like Debbie said it should be on there papers.

I feel very sorry for these people. It is always a sad thing to lose a foal but this is even harder.
 

Catherine Owen
Breeding Stock
Username: Cateowen

Post Number: 236
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2008 - 11:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am so sorry this little filly was lost.
 

corina gabel
Yearling
Username: Newyearsbaby05

Post Number: 71
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Saturday, May 03, 2008 - 01:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yes i will have him tested then, i thought it was just a frame/overo thing though!!! i mares i bred him to there is no way this could happen but every time something goes wrong with anyone on here i run out and check her:-) She is a mustang/walker with no paint! so we should be fine.
 

Sandy Smith
Breeding Stock
Username: Sandystone

Post Number: 180
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2008 - 06:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Debbie - please convey my deepest sympathies to these people. They definitely are innocent in this whole thing, but I agree, there's a rat in the bush somewhere. Anyone breeding paints should ALWAYS test for LW. As someone else said, even tobianos, and homozygous at that, can be carriers. A 25% chance of a LW foal is way too high of odds for me. I tested both my mares, one overo and one tobiano before breeding. The homozygous tobiano stallion I bred to, was also tested. I made sure the possibility of LW was 0%. At any rate, I am heartbroken for these people who lost that precious little filly.
 

Laurie A Beltran
Breeding Stock
Username: Prophecy_ranch

Post Number: 199
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Sunday, May 04, 2008 - 10:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My Thoughts and prayers are being sent~
 

Dorthy Brown
Breeding Stock
Username: Dodib

Post Number: 281
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 01:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Very sad--it is terrible but i also know breeders that will breed a mare and stallion that both are carriers............I don't know how they can go through the pain of losing the foal but they seem to not care if they have a chance to get what they want
I also know another breeder that owns a stud that I had looked at buying(before she bought it) that is a carrier(reason I didn't buy him) BUT she does not tell people that(might lose business ya know) people are just rotten
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 270
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 01:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know a breeder that takes the chance breeding two carriers. She won't quit.
The only compassionate thing she does is have the foal euthanized immediately so it doesn't go through the painful death.
 

Bobbi Govro
Breeding Stock
Username: Hh_farms

Post Number: 384
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 04:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Debbie: I am so sorry for your friend. When you first posted, I was uncomfortable and hoped it wasn't a lethal white. This is another lethal white now that I have seen live past 24 hours.

I'm a bit confused as to some of the thoughts on the paints and the genetics being discussed though.

I have a frame overo stallion. I am NO expert but I have done a great deal of research on this as I want to avoid any possible lethal foal issues. Yes, you can get your mare or stallion genetically tested to see if they are carrying this gene. However, almost all (if not all) frame overo's if combined with another frame overo has a theoretical 25% chance of lethal white. It usually does not appear in that high of a percentage but more closely to around 9% of the time due to possible miscarriages or failure to carry to term of some of those lethal whites.

True tobiano can cross with overo without a lethal white issue. This is ONLY if the tobiano and the parents of these were correctly identified as tobianos upon registration. The problem occurs that tobiano and overo (tovero) crosses can combine with frame overos and again, the lethal white issue can be presented. If you breed a frame overo to a true tobiano or a true solid, you should never be at risk to develop a lethal white.

Unfortunately, the "combos" of paint patterns and the incorrect registration of those can create problems for people who "think" they own a tobiano when in fact, they may actually own a tovero with tobiano paint markings. Sabinos are not linked to lethal whites but they range in patterns that look anywhere from a frame overo to a tobiano, to a roan, to a complete white...this leads to many confusing and incorrect registrations.

My best advice to someone wanting to avoid the lethal white paint foal (besides the obvious genetic typing) is to really research the parentage of their horse. I select my personal mares for breeding based on that. For example: I have a full blooded solid quarter horse, a full blooded solid thoroughbred and a true tobiano (one parent tobiano and one parent solid quarter horse, the parents of the "parent tobiano" were also a tobiano and solid quarter horse combo and there were no overos in the parentage). This has eliminated any chances of my mares producing a lethal white. Research the background of your stallion that you are breeding to, request a pedigree that has the colorings so that you can somewhat determine if that gene is an issue. By breeding to solids or confirmed alternate patterns, I increase my odds to get solids but I'd rather have a solid paint as to endure the tragedy of loosing a lethal white foal.

I hope the information that all of us have passed on to you will help your friend in the future in their breeding selections.
 

Bobbi Govro
Breeding Stock
Username: Hh_farms

Post Number: 385
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 04:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

By the way...as a side note. I agree with many others comments.

I WILL NOT breed to an Overo mare. I require all my outside mares pedigrees and I research all lines prior to committing to the breeding. If it is in question, I require a genetics be run on them.

The problem is that frame overos are the most common form of paint horses. There are many people who just don't either research the issue or as I stated earlier, don't know that their "Tobiano" registered horse is really a Tovero with tobiano markings and can't understand what happened. (A Tovero carries a set of "overo" genes and can have lethal whites just as an overo can). A true Tobiano and a true Frame Overo combo should never result in a lethal white. But, the Tovero offspring is produces when bred to an Overo can.

Because of the commonality of frame overos, I can see where people breed their overos to other overos and take the chance. I personally don't do it and won't do it but there are lots of people out there that are willing to take the chance to get that flashy baby. I don't promote my stallion and he doesn't get bred a ton so I'm lucky and can be picky.
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 271
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 07:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think part of the problem is that the term overo is a generic term. There are 3 overo patterns. Sabino, splash, and frame. Some people use it to mean any/all of the 3 patterns as it is meant to be used and some use it to mean frame.
A tovero can have tobiano with a combination of any or all of the overo genes. Frame (which current thinking IS the LWG) can be so minamally expressed to not show at all.
If you breed paints/pintos I think they should all be tested unless from two tested negative parents.
 

Bobbi Govro
Breeding Stock
Username: Hh_farms

Post Number: 405
Registered: 03-2008
Posted on Tuesday, May 06, 2008 - 07:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cathy you are right in that color patterns can be masked completely or expressed maximally. This is where the registration of the pattern has gone to a problem. When owning an overo it is important to know if it is indeed a frame. Most overos are. My stallion could be the classic picture of a frame overo. No doubt.

Testing all would be great but it doesn't solve the issue of the fact that people will still breed Overo to Overo and risk the chance of a LW because they want color.

Being another paint person, I'm not sure how we as avid horse lovers bring about this "culture change". They only way I know how is to handle my own breeding responsibility and pedigree/line research.

You are correct also in the that non-spotted animals can still carry the "overo gene". Out of two mares this year (so far), I have received a very minimal frame overo foal and a solid. Now is my solid actually a "solid" or is he a minimally expressed overo. (Well, genetically in my book he is a minimally expressed overo.) Which means for me (if I were to continue to own him and possibly stand him at stud down the line) that I would not breed him, even though he looks like a solid, to any true frame overos. Only to another solid or a tobiano. Because genetically, the odds are that he carries one set of the overo genes that combined with another frame overo could produce a LW.

I guess that's my point with my solid tobiano mare. There is no way that she could possibly carry a frame overo gene. She is not breed to have that possibility so breeding her to a frame overo is not a problem. Her foals, on the other hand, could have a problem. Her foal, the minimal frame overo marking in all honestly is genetically a "tovero." But if someone didn't take the time to know this combo and just looked at his color markings alone, they would swear he was a straight frame overo breeding.

Its sooooo complicated! Hahaha! What are we doing in paints?!?! Hahahaha!
 

corina gabel
Yearling
Username: Newyearsbaby05

Post Number: 79
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2008 - 03:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am jut getting in to the paint stuff. I have allwayss fallowed the blood lines. I try to read anything i can on color and color patterns now that i have a stallion. I hope he doesnt carry the LW but there is no way i could ever not tell someone that they could have the chance. I am with you bobbi i think that if he is i will screen every mare, i would hate for anyone to have to go threw that!!
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 459
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 09:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My stallion has two toveros in his pedigree, one on the 4th generation and one on the fifth. I had tail hair pulled this week to test for LWO even though hes a tobiano, out of two tobianos, I dont want to take any chances. I have never researched or owned an overo, so I sure dont want to take any chances with my stud. Better to know for sure. So many people ask if he has been tested, I figured for the price of the test, its better to have it done

p.s. I spoke with the owner of the lethal white filly and he told me that he had a conversation with the previous owner of the mare. The owner of the stallion knew it carried the LWO but supposedly never tested the mare that they had owned for several years. Like I said, I smell a rat.

THey didnt even offer him a free breed back, not that he would ever breed to another overo again, but he does have a silver grullo or could have bred to another stallion they owned.. pathetic.

Deb
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 460
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, May 09, 2008 - 09:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bobbi: Are you saying that a tovero to tovero or tovero to tobiano that produces a tobiano and the next generation another tobiano cannot carry the LWO gene?

My stallion has a tovero bred to tobiano on his 4th generation that produced a tobiano, then tobiano to tobianos from that point forward to him. It makes me nervous that there is some overo in his background so I just figured to have the vet pull hair while he was getting his annual shots and coggins for the show season. I also tested him for HYPP although he has no Impressive lines... like I said.. might as well get it all done so I have the paperwork to back it up.

Deb
 

Valerie Myers
Yearling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 62
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 02:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi All, very sad about the little filly. I have a Apha Bay Overo mare that I bred. I wanted a Buckskin Overo. After much research on the paint genes I found out that I needed to have my mare bred to a Perlino or Cremello to get the best chance at my buckskin, and I needed the mare checked and the stallion checked for the LWO gene. I did test my mare with UC Davis and yes, she carries 1 copy of the LWO gene, the stallion owner already had the stud's dna on file with UC Davis and he did not carry any copies of the LWO gene, so we were safe to breed. Bay overo bred to Cremello Solid. 10 days ago we had a healthy beautiful Buckskin Filly, solid though, no overo markings. She's still cute as heck! Val
 

Jan Owen
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 1592
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 03:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Valerie,
Congrates on the new Buckskin Filly please post some pics!
 

Valerie Myers
Yearling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 63
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 04:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Jan, here ya go, " Nara" was added to the herd on 4/30/08!

http://s301.photobucket.com/albums/nn58/mypaints/Buckskin%20Filly%20April%2030-0 8/?action=view&current=dd60b9de.pbw

http://s301.photobucket.com/albums/nn58/mypaints/Buckskin%20Filly%20April%2030-0 8/?action=view&current=61ad6718.pbw
 

Jan Owen
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 1595
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 05:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Valerie~Really a nice size filly :-) She is so cute with that cute white splash :-) Thanks for sharing!
 

Catherine Owen
Breeding Stock
Username: Cateowen

Post Number: 304
Registered: 12-2007
Posted on Tuesday, May 13, 2008 - 06:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Val,
Cool filly. I have always liked buckskins!
 

Marilyn Lemke - Dora due 7/31/08
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Marilyn_l

Post Number: 1351
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 07:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What a nice looking filly. It sure pays to do your homework, cause you got exactly what you wanted. I'm very happy for you!
 

charlene birdsall, Jetta born 3/20/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Charlie67

Post Number: 898
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2008 - 01:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Valerie, congrats. Nara is a cutie. So since my mare is a bay dun, if I bred her to a perlino or a cremello then mabey I could get a dunskin right? Who is Nara's daddy? Does Nara have a special meaning? It's an unusual name, I like it.
 

Valerie Myers
Yearling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 64
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Monday, May 19, 2008 - 04:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi all, sorry it's taking me so long to get back to you I was out at a conference then Hubby's birthday. Thanks on the filly, we kinda like her! Nara in literature, books by Mary H. Herbert, Author of the dark horse series, Nara is a Hunnuli, the mythological word for a "Magical Horse". Hunnuli are a breed of wild horse magically created to partner and protect good magic wielders. They are huge, powerful, and elegant. Held in high regard even when humans forget their original purpose, the Hunnuli are immune to magic, fully sentient, and communicate telepathically with their chosen humans. They are intolerant of evil, and will fight to the death rather than serve an evil master. And yes, I think you may get a Dunskin, but you should defintely do the research to find out for sure. Jan Owen is an excellent source on color genetics. Also Jan, I have a question, I know my little filly is a buckskin, but she seems kinda light, I'm thinking she will darken as she sheds out, I know she's covered in baby fuzz and there is black hair on her legs under the baby fuzz grey. Will she darken?
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 277
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2008 - 09:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Valerie I have had several buckskins and every one of them shed out darker.
 

Jan Owen
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 1640
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2008 - 11:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Valerie....I am no expert at all :-) I think maybe you have me confused but a very nice confusion :-) I know that alot of buckskins are born light and do darken up..sometimes the dark babies lighten up to lighter horses...that is the fun of baby coats. Post some new pics :-) Would love to see Nara....
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 461
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 20, 2008 - 03:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My buckskins are always born darker and gradually lighten up.

Here is a picture of Bailey when she was born: Everyone thought she was a Bay.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/canadianhorselady/102_6170Small.jpg

Here is a picture of Bailey at one year old:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/canadianhorselady/Bailey5210408Small.jpg

This is a picture of Jac, at about 3 days old:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/canadianhorselady/102_1082Small-1.jpg

and here he is today, at about 6 weeks old:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/canadianhorselady/BeckyJac070508Small.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y4/canadianhorselady/102_1220Small.jpg

my buckskins always start to lighten up on their inside of legs and underbellies, and around their muzzles first, then they gradually lighten all over.

Jac is darker with some black hair so I am not sure that he will lighten as much as Bailey did. He might be homo for black, which Bailey isnt.

Deb
 

Valerie Myers
Yearling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 65
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 12:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi All, I'm thinking she's going to darken. I know that there are many shades of Buckskins. Deb, I know you said yours lighten but are born darker. But I think it can go the other way too, cuz this girl is starting to darken around her muzzle, she's starting to shed the baby coat and her muzzle is getting black, also I can see black leg hair under the baby fuzz grey she has now. I'll send new pics in the next day or so and I can show you her little muzzle is changing. Val
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 462
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 02:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Val: A friend of mine also had a filly born golden buckskin color that darkened down to a coppery color, so I know it can also go from light to dark. Like Forrest Gump said, Life is like a box of Chocolates, ya never know what yer gonna get :-)

Deb
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 279
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 21, 2008 - 07:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My 3 buckskin were all born light and shed out darker.
 

Diana Gilger
Breeding Stock
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 462
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 01:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK, after reading all this, I am puzzled...and looking back at some things. My mare that lost her foal this year is one that I posted on another color thread....here she is she has a belly patch and 2 blue eyes...and I've been wondering what pattern to call her...
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii281/kdgilger/mistyreg2.jpg
was bred to this guy...
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii281/kdgilger/537_pic.jpg
And the foal that she lost was completely white with blue eyes and pink skin...
The foal was never born alive though, It had twisted its umbilical cord up pretty severely in utero, and died...sending mare into early labor, and a breech presentation....yuck. What does this mean? Is there a chance my mare carries LWO? Or that the stallion did? Or do you think it's completely irrelevant and unrelated? Just wondering what your thoughts are.
Thanks in advance
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 463
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Thursday, May 22, 2008 - 03:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Diana: You can always email the APHA and ask what they would register her as. I think the email is askapha.com if im not mistaken. They are very good at getting back to you quickly. As to your mare having a completely white baby with pink skin and blue eyes... sounds like a LWO to me considering her color she should not have had a white baby. You can pull hair and have her tested. Its not expensive. I use the University of California at Davis. You can download the forms and instructions off their equine link and send off the hair - 50 strands I think it is - and then in about two weeks after they receive it you will get an email notification of the results. Considering your mare had a completely white foal, if I were you I would have it done.

Deb



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