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Red Dun Gene

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » Red Dun Gene « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Renae Brumley
Yearling
Username: Renaecd

Post Number: 60
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 10:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello!

I'm trying to understand the red dun gene. From what I understand, a red dun is a chestnut with the Dun gene (as opposed to a regular dun which is a bay horse with the dun gene). Is this correct?

My friend has a red dun mare who she bought already bred to a red dun stallion. A dun horse would look the same whether they carried one dun gene or two dun genes, right? So since there is no test for the dun gene, we can't know whether the mare/stallion have one or two dun genes. Assuming they have one each, the foal still has the possibility of getting two dun genes, which is why I'm asking. The foal could get two dun genes, one dun gene, or no dun genes.

So basically, she could either get a red dun or a sorrel foal? Let me know opinions, and please correct me if I am wrong!

Thanks!
Renae
 

Saleste Clark, Jessie due 03/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Saleste

Post Number: 144
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 12:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Renae -- I'm not completely sure, but I have a sorrel frame/sabino paint that i wanted to breed to a red dun. i checked the color calculator (awesome little thing: http://www.animalgenetics.us/CCalculator1.asp)and the only possiblities were red dun or sorrel. so i'm thinking you're right, a red dun is a sorrel with the dun gene...
 

charlene birdsall, Baby due 4/2/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Charlie67

Post Number: 807
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 12:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Renae, I have a bay dun. I was also wondering about the very same thing if I bred my mare to another dun stud. I've been researching the color genetic thing for awhile now, and even bought the book "Equine Color Genetics", second edition by D. Phillip Sponenberg. It's a great book. So from what I've read if you breed a dun to a dun and they are both heterzygous for the dun gene, then I'd say that you would have about a 75% chance that the foal would be a dun of some sort, and about a 25% chance or less that it won't carry the dun gene at all. I would think that breeding a dun to a dun that the chances of it being homozygous are about 50%. The only way to know if the resulting foal would be homozygous for the dun gene is to breed him or her to non-dun mates, and if all their foals are dun then you would know. Mabey some day UC Davis will have a homozygousity test for the dun gene. I hope so anyway.
 

Emily West, Gracie Due 04/11/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 509
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, April 07, 2008 - 01:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Renae,
You are right about red dun being the dun gene on a red gened horse and the foal being either red dun or sorrel. Seeing they are both dun you would have a 75% chance for red dun and only a 25% chance of it being sorrel like charlene said. One out of every four foals from that match would be homozygous for dun so that would also be a 25% chance. If one is all ready homozygous then you have a 50% chance that the foal will be homozygous. Hope that helped!! :-)
 

Lori Schaich
Nursing Foal
Username: Lschaich

Post Number: 16
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 12:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Uc Davis DOES have the Dun Gene Test now available. You have to submit hair samples from the horse in question and from one parent.
Our dun stallion was tested homozygous for the dun gene! Yippee!!

I think your correct, when breeding 2 red duns, I think you'll either get red dun or sorrel.
 

charlene birdsall, Baby due 4/2/08
Breeding Stock
Username: Charlie67

Post Number: 813
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 12:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lori, that great news. Now if I breed Jetta or Baby in the future to a Dun, them I can have the foal tested to see if their homozygous right? Do you have any pics of your stud? What is his registered name and bloodlines?
 

Lori Schaich
Nursing Foal
Username: Lschaich

Post Number: 17
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 08, 2008 - 02:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes Charlene,
The test results come back as either:
D/D= horse is homozygous for the dun gene. All
foals will be of dun dilute
D/N= horse carries one dun gene. Foals will be
dun 50% of time.
N/N= Horse does not carry the dun gene

and then they also have "inconsistent" with an explanation of more information required on said horse.
I was so happy when our boy came back homozygous. He's had 32 foals (all duns) so we figured he was, but it's nice to have it on paper.
Our stallion is "Sir Pocolot" AQHA/NFQHA and listed with APHA. He's 4th generation Poco Bueno and Easter King. Stands 15h with no white. He is 90% foundation bred, tested N/N for HERDA and is homozygous for the black AND dun gene. I'm at work right now, so I cannot add pictures, but you can see plenty of him and his foals on our webpage at : www.hawkviewranch.net
 

corina gabel
Weanling
Username: Newyearsbaby05

Post Number: 41
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Friday, April 11, 2008 - 04:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

we have a BSpaint mare out of a red dun mother and a black paint stallion. We ahve a dark bay with a faint line and tips on ther ears and feet and not a paint mark on her. She fell in the 25% of both the paint and the dun genes !!!!!! She got CHEATED!!!!!

Poor thing didnt get alot of brains eather....
 

Lee
Weanling
Username: Leejon

Post Number: 28
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 25, 2010 - 02:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a red dun out of a dunalino sire and a palomino dam and bred her to a sorrel out of a dun sire and sorrel dam my foal was born and is not sorrel or red dun she looks black dun with dark face too ?? what happened ??? lol I got a surprise :-)
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 3252
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Sunday, April 25, 2010 - 08:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hi lee, can you post pics? that would be helpful. Is there any chance she's a chocolate palomino?
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 3253
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Sunday, April 25, 2010 - 08:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just to clarify this thread for the record....there is currently no test for Dun...the above information is not true. The best they can do is a dun zygosity test, which takes your horses markings and ancestry into consideration. IT is not a dna test like the other color tests....it's just a "probability " test, based on your horses physical characteristics, and parentage.
 

Lee
Weanling
Username: Leejon

Post Number: 29
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 06:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am trying to upload pic using photo bucket... but
... just looks like a reg black/zebra dun w/ darker face...
she is buff/fawn brown with black mane/tail and dorsal line,grey leg markings that I assume will be black her face is same as legs grey?/dark...
haired and she has dark shading over of withers and throughout her back ... I rally think she must be a dun but at this time has the dark color on her face like a grulla... but the color calculator didnt give any possibility of anything other than red dun or sorrel ??? just caught me by surprise :-)
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 3267
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Monday, April 26, 2010 - 08:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

well, there must be something hidden in her lines! What a surprise!
 

Audrey Crosby McLellan
Weanling
Username: Accphotography

Post Number: 25
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Tuesday, May 18, 2010 - 05:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is alot more to the dun test than just appearance (photo isn't even required) and parentage (which is also not even required). It is a genetic marker test that has proven highly reliable.

The only options from two red dun parents are red dun and sorrel. Either the pedigree is wrong or one of the parents is not actually a red dun.
 

Diana Gilger
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Kdgilger

Post Number: 3391
Registered: 01-2008
Posted on Wednesday, May 19, 2010 - 01:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry ...this is directly copied from UCDavis' site.
Dun Zygosity Test
Dun is a dominant gene that dilutes the color of body hair, leaving the points and head unaffected. Dun horses also show "primitive markings" consisting of a dark dorsal stripe, leg barring, shoulder stripes and concentric marks on the forehead (spiderwebbing, cobwebbing). The dorsal stripe appears to be a consistent feature of dun horses while the other "primitive marks" vary and may not all be present, or visible. The effect of the Dun gene on the base colors of chestnut, bay and black produces horses with shades that range from apricot, golden, dark gray, olive, and many, more subtle, variations. Dun is inherited independently of other coat color genes and can occur in combination with any other genes that modify the base colors. Dun dilution is present in many breeds of horses including Quarter Horses, Paints, Appaloosas, Icelandic Horses, Norwegian Fjords, Paso Finos, Peruvian Pasos and several of the pony breeds. The names assigned to the various Dun colors vary by breed. For additional information on Dun, D. Phillip Sponenberg's Equine Color Genetics has descriptions, names and photos for these colors.

SUBMISSION FORM - Allow 5-10 business days for test results.

Dun Zygosity Testing
The specific mutation that causes Dun has not yet been identified, and there is no direct test for the gene. VGL has identified DNA markers "associated" with Dun that can be used to determine if a horse has the Dun gene and how many copies. The Dun Zygosity analysis is not a direct DNA test, so the following additional materials should be included to provide the most complete analysis:

Materials

1.Photos of the subject horse
2.A hair sample pulled from the mane or tail of one or both parents of the subject horse
3.Three generation pedigree of the subject horse
If a sample from a parent is not provided, the analysis may not be conclusive for the presence/absence of the Dun gene.
 

Kimberlee Jones
Neonate
Username: Barbhorses

Post Number: 1
Registered: 05-2011
Posted on Monday, May 02, 2011 - 01:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is also a pale version of red dun called claybank. Here is a pic of what that color looks like:

http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff208/barbhorses/IMG05.jpg

Claybank mare's light grulla (black dun) son:
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff208/barbhorses/100_2737.jpg
 

Sarah R
Neonate
Username: Sarah_r

Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2011
Posted on Monday, October 10, 2011 - 06:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The gene you are referring to is simply called the dun gene. It is a simple dominant dilution gene. The horse MUST inherit the dun gene from one of its parents. Which means in order for the horse to be true dun, one of its parents also had to have been dun. The dun gene can effect either base color- red or black. The horse that the original poster refers to is a red dun, which means this is a chestnut horse, with either 1 or 2 copies of the dun gene. The dun gene can affect black horses (called a grullo/a) or bay horses (known as a classic dun). Buckskin and dun ARE NOT the same. As the UCDavis' site says, the specific gene has not been identified. When you send your test into UCDavis, they test for what are called "markers" of the gene.



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