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Color question??

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » Color question?? « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Jenni Luttrell
Breeding Stock
Username: Bugrace2000

Post Number: 352
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 04:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a sorel mare her mom was sorrell her dad was a blk and white. She is not registered and I dont know if I'll be able to register her so i'm not planning on using her as a brood mare, but if I were to breed her is it possible that she'd throw color. She is a very pretty mare and I love her size for teaching kids on so I may one day decide to let her have a foal.
 

Mary Ann
Yearling
Username: Newbie

Post Number: 55
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 04:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a solid, liver chestnut mare whose father was a sorrel/white paint and mom was solid. I bred her to a black/white overo and got a bay, colored baby so I would say the answer to your question is yes. If you breed your unregistered mare to a registered (APHA) paint and the foal is colored you can register it in the Pinto Association (only gelded colts or fillies can be registered unless both mom and dad are registered too.
 

Mary Ann
Yearling
Username: Newbie

Post Number: 56
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 04:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here's a picture of mom and baby. I don't have a picture of the stud but he was mostly white with black.
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u312/newbie_38/August_07_092.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u312/newbie_38/P6010091.jpg
 

Jenni Luttrell
Breeding Stock
Username: Bugrace2000

Post Number: 354
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 04:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank You Mary Ann your mare has more white on her than my girl does my girl has a small snip and a thin blaze with 2 very small socks. so since I would need a guaranteed color foal for registration what would be my best option. I've never bred for color in my life so I'm completely clueless
Both momma and baby are lookers

(Message edited by bugrace2000 on August 15, 2007)
 

Mary Ann
Yearling
Username: Newbie

Post Number: 57
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 05:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe a Paint that is homozygous for overo, tobiano, etc. would be a guaranteed colored baby. The daddy of my baby was not homozygous but I got lucky and he threw a small amount of color anyway. I'm new to this too but this bulletin board and browsing the internet helps alot.
 

Jenni Luttrell
Breeding Stock
Username: Bugrace2000

Post Number: 355
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 08:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I really apreciate the info on the registration. I know I was supposed to be very happy because she was given to me but I really dont believe in breeding grade horses and she is just to pretty not to breed. So you info makes my day next year I'll be looking for a painted stallion thnx again
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 328
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Wednesday, August 15, 2007 - 09:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jenni, now that you have the patterning and placement of color figured out, you need to decide on pedigree and color. They say a good horse is never a bad color, but I like to breed for color as well as pedigree. I like dilutes myself ( creme gened horses such as perlino, cremello, palomino, buckskin)

I have a homozygous bay, homozygous tobiano mare, and a homozygous creme,(perlino color) homozygous tobiano stallion that she is in foal to for APril 2008

The foal will most likely be buckskin, (75%)since the bay and the perlino both have black genes and black is dominant over red, but definitely homozygous for tobiano as both parents are homo tobis.

I crossed that same mare last year with a homo tobi buckskin and got a homo tobi buckskin filly out of that cross.

This years filly has excellent pedigree top and bottom and will join my broodmares once her show career is up.

My stallion is currently on the show circuit and I bred him only to my mare this year. I want something on the ground for next year before he stands to the public.

I like to study the genetics of color and you can sure learn alot on this board about all the color possibilities as well as Agouti etc. which all may help you pick that stallion for your mare in future.

Deb
 

Jenni Luttrell
Breeding Stock
Username: Bugrace2000

Post Number: 356
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 09:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Deb thanks for the info I'll take all of it I can get. I have bred appedix horses my entire life however color was never a thought in our breeding program. In fact I've only owned 3 paints my entire life all three of wich were sold rather quickly. All of our horses were bred for their conformation and brains. Our biggest color delemia was when our roan stallion somehow managed 5 Palomino foals in one year which I thought was impossible for him to do beings the mares were 2 blks 2 sorrels and 1 palomino.
I really dont care what color I get as long as I get registerable color. My main thing is keeping her build and size in the foal. She is short but very refined and athletic looking. Im guessing she'll mature at 14 hands no bigger. I think she'll do well for children on barrels and poles or even jumping. If she wasnt an exceptional little mare I wouldnt even consider breeding her but I would love to have another one built like her for my kids. ( I have 3 5& under and one on the way) I also used to teach children to ride and she is perfect for the task. Just the right size with that quarter horse mind. so many small horses are high strung or stuborn ponies.
So now that Ive used 1/2 a pg telling you all what I want anyone got any ideas for a stallion. I looked localy and wasnt impressed.
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 330
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 03:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry I cant help much. I breed paints. You can try the website www.thestallionplace.com They have lots of studs on the site. Might find something there that interests you. Also other equine sites such as equine.com and dreamhorse.com have stud categories you can check out :-)
 

Jenni Luttrell
Breeding Stock
Username: Bugrace2000

Post Number: 362
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 03:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank You Debbie I checked out dreamhorse and found some awsome stallion they just arent what I need for her. Some of them made me want to go and buy a suitable mare lol.
 

Saffron
Breeding Stock
Username: Saffron

Post Number: 270
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 03:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi all...sorry another question..i have seen a stallion who is a palomino tobiano (his father is palomino, mother tobiano i think braun)
What colours can he produce?
Can he be homozygous?
What is stronger palomino or brown tobiano!!?
Thanks and sorry for the dumb questions
 

Jenni Luttrell
Breeding Stock
Username: Bugrace2000

Post Number: 364
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 04:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hey keep asking them I might learn something lol. I would love a nice golden paint if I could be positive thats what I'd get.
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 331
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 06:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A palomino tobiano is a creme gene based horse. He has two red genes as red is recessive to black. If he had one red gene and one black gene and his creme gene, he would be a buckskin. So, we know his genetic makeup is eeCr. Both his parents would have to be paints for him to have a chance of being homozygous for tobiano. If his father is palomino but not a paint, then he cannot be a homozygous tobiano. His mother being a tobiano can throw the tobiano gene to her offspring even if the father does not have one, the resulting foal can be a paint, just not a homozygous paint.

The mare being tobiano, is TT (homozygous) or Tt (heterozygous) for paint.

If she is homozygous for paint she will always throw a T which is show paint. If she is heterozygous for tobiano, she could throw either a T or a t. T you get paint, t you do not.

If the father is palomino, but not tobiano, his makeup would be eett. No paint gene to throw.

As to which is stronger, both are red gened base colors and both are recessive to black. The father can not produce any black based horses on his own (black, bay, buckskin, etc.) as he has no black to pass on.

From what I remember of the color brown, there are no real brown horses according to genetics. Brown isnt really a recognized color. According to genetics, the brown color referred to in horses is a horse too dark for bay and too light for black. Hmmmmm The explaination gets into dominant and recessive allels, which I have no clue as to how they work. Anyone else want to take on the genetics of brown?

Maybe if you look at the mares parents for clues on her color, you might get some other answers as to what her true color is.

Palomino crossed with a dominant black horse could actually give you a buckskin :-) who knows, maybe your "brown" horse is a dominant black that is just a lighter shade of black. Only genetic testing would tell you for sure what she really is.

Lets say for arguement she is dominant black, crossed with your palomino you have possibilities of buckskin, bay, smokey black, you also have other possibilities if she is not dominant black but rather Ee (one red and one black) which brings the red based horses in such as palomino, chestnut, duns, grullos, silvers.

Its like Christmas sometimes, or as Forrest Gump said... Life is like a Box of Chocolates, you never know what you are going to get :-)
 

Jenni Luttrell
Breeding Stock
Username: Bugrace2000

Post Number: 368
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Thursday, August 16, 2007 - 10:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.equine.com/Stallions/ad_details.aspx?lid=211965&search_id=4ac3669e-6c 3e-4bcd-9cc1-8f55ca2294fc
What do you think I could get out of this gentleman hes a little big for her but I really like him and hes not all that far from me.
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 332
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 10:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jenni: Email me privately for comments.


Deb
 

Jenni Luttrell
Breeding Stock
Username: Bugrace2000

Post Number: 370
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 11:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ok here is my email I dont have yours bugrace2000@yahoo.com
 

Jenni Luttrell
Breeding Stock
Username: Bugrace2000

Post Number: 386
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 07:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.equine.com/Stallions/ad_details.aspx?lid=198359&search_id=7a764cb3-69 52-45a0-bae5-dc11fc67755f
Do you know what my chances of color are out of this guy he is a better stallion than the other. Exspecialy for her.
Thank you for your time genetics leave me baffled
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 333
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 10:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jenni:

The description of the stud is Dun, but what kind of dun is he? ALso, you need to know what color your mare is for sure as there is no such thing as brown. What colors were her parents and grandparents?

Heres a little toy for you to play with in figuring out colors based on sire and damn colors. I think its pretty accurate if you know the genetic makeup of the parents - agouti, homozygous or not, etc.

Give it a shot.. its all good fun anyway :-)

http://www.horsetesting.com/CCalculator1.asp

Deb
 

Jenni Luttrell
Breeding Stock
Username: Bugrace2000

Post Number: 388
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Friday, August 17, 2007 - 10:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My mare is sorrel with a sorrell dam and a blk and white sire.
I played with the chart and it seams that most likely I would get a tobiano of some color. most likely zebra dun. I will inquire about his real color one day soon.
Will it increase the foals chance of being "painted" with the dams sire being a paint

(Message edited by bugrace2000 on August 17, 2007)
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 334
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 10:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jenni: If your sorrel (chestnut) mare has a paint gene, she would show it. Since she does not show paint, she has no tobiano T gene to pass. Her father being black and white was heterozygous for tobiano Tt and threw her a t, which is why she is not a paint.

The rule of paint is,,, if you have it, you see it. Therefore, your question, will it increase the foals chance of paint painted if the grandpa was paint? is unfortunately, no. To guarantee a paint foal you need a homozygous tobiano stallion. You could still get a paint foal from a heterozygous stallion but the chance is I think about 50-50 or much less.

Also check with the stallion owner if genetic testing was done. What tests were done if they were... OWLS Aa red gene Ee etc.
 

Saffron
Breeding Stock
Username: Saffron

Post Number: 271
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 02:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok the questions keep coming!!
What colour is this mare? i mean is she tobiano?
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p262/saffron_2007/DSC00558.jpg
So she has had 4 foals by solid stallions and always had a coloured foal..does this mean she is PROBABLY homozygous??
If she was bred to my heterozygous stallion (dark bay tobiano) What are the chances of a homozygous foal (yes i am obsessed with getting a homoyzygous foal)
I can get her tested but i wanted to ask first anyway..she is not my horse but i may loan or buy her!!
 

Jenni Luttrell
Breeding Stock
Username: Bugrace2000

Post Number: 393
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Saturday, August 18, 2007 - 10:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank You Debbie
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 339
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 09:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Saffron: I would suspect she is homozygous. She has the cat paw prints (spots of color on white) and also has given you 4 paint foals from solid studs. I think the general rule of thumb is 10 foals, but in this case I think you are pretty safe to assume it.

What patterns were her parents? She looks tobiano to me though she does have alot of white on her face and underbelly.

I have always thought that tobianos looked like they were splashed with a bucket of paint from the top down, and overos were splashed with a bucket of paint from the bottom up (Marilyn Monroe over the hot air duct scene comes to mind when thinking of Overos) :P

If she is homo for tobi and bred to your tobiano paint stallion, you have a 75% chance of homo foal. 100% chance of a paint and 25% of a heterozygous foal.
 

Saffron
Breeding Stock
Username: Saffron

Post Number: 272
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 09:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh thats sounds hopeful!!
I dont know what colour the parents were...i must ask!I am not familiar with all the colours such as overo etc but she is an odd looking tobiano???
If she wasnt tob..do we still have the chance of a homozygous foal?
Thanks for your help!
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 342
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 10:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is this mare registered? If so I can look her up on the APHA site and see what colors her sire and damn were and if there are any overos in her 4 generation pedigree
 

Emily West
Breeding Stock
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 285
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 11:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Saffron,
She looks like she could be Homozygous to me too. She clearly has a tobiano gene. I believe what Debbie is saying, and I think this also, that based on the white on her face she could carry an overo gene as well making her a tovero. Although without info on her parents it is hard to say. A tovero carries both the tobiano and overo gene so that doesn't change your chance of getting a homozygous foal.
I have attached a webpage that has tobiano breeding tables. Take a look at example 4. That has your anwser as to what percent chance you have of a homozygous foal. http://www.palouse.net/Paint/tobiano.htm
 

Saffron
Breeding Stock
Username: Saffron

Post Number: 273
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Sunday, August 19, 2007 - 01:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks guys
She is registered in a breeding book for german pintos BUT she doesnt have the real breeding papers so i must ask the old owner...my aim was to breed a filly from her who would also be homozygous and i can refine the genes so to speak...so if she could get a homo filly from my stallion who is fully licenced and tested then i could put this filly to a better stallion again and still be getting colour!! Yes i am aware that she will sure have a colt ha ha but thats not bad he can be sold or used for sport!!!
I just want to try and work out the percentages here but it is difficult without a full history!
First of all i am trying to establish the chance of a homozygous foal from my heterzygous stallion...but it sounds good!!!



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