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What is "black-Bay"??

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » What is "black-Bay"?? « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Teresa Byersdorf
Neonate
Username: Bravehart

Post Number: 9
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 10:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a 2 month old colt. His sire is black and his dam is buckskin. This colt was born almost black. When he dried off, he was a medium bay with a pretty dark head. Now that he is shedding off his baby coat,it's clear he's going to be a very dark bay, almost black. His dam is homozygous for black and bay and his sire is homozygous for black. So, clearly the colt has to be a bay. My question is...if bay (agouti) is limiting the black to the points...what are all these horses doing that are technically bay, but are so dark...the black certainly isn't being limited to the points. He is going to look almost black when he gets shed out. How can the bay gene be limiting the black to the points when a horse can be a "black-bay" and very dark all over?
 

Paula Rollins
Neonate
Username: Paular

Post Number: 9
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 03:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is he a brown? I find alot of brown are mislabeled as really dark bay or faded black or not a true black. Or it could be a really sooty bay, sooty gene is not restricted by the bay agouti gene, Brown is an agouti gene.

Here is a good site to explain further:
http://colormorgans.tripod.com/basecolors.htm
 

Teresa Byersdorf
Neonate
Username: Bravehart

Post Number: 10
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 04:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting link! He could be brown. His dam is a sooty buckskin, but only sooty on her neck/shoulder areas, the rest is a medium buckskin color. Maybe he got a really full dose of sooty making him look so dark. I know the pedigree for several generations back..and there are no dark bays/browns. There are many bright mahogany bays on the dams side. The sire side is like 10 generations true black. Not sure if the brown and pop up when no close relatives are brown?
 

Heather Kutyba
Breeding Stock
Username: Heatherck11

Post Number: 606
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 12:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Teresa,
Dunno if this helps any...but here are some pics of my "brown" colt when he was born.
This horse was by a bay stallion, out of a brown mare.
[IMG]http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/HeatherCK11/P1010030.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/HeatherCK11/P1010049-2.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f298/HeatherCK11/Buddy4.jpg[/IMG]

]
 

Teresa Byersdorf
Nursing Foal
Username: Bravehart

Post Number: 11
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 08:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Heather. He's not that dark yet, but judging by the color under his foal coat...he will get very close to that. His foal coat is definatly bay although his head/neck are pretty much black..the body and rear end are bay with almost all black under the baby hair. He's also tobiano..so the contrast between the white markings and dark coat are pretty drastic.
 

Wendy Burnside
Neonate
Username: Riddlebrook

Post Number: 5
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 07:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi there. Im just wondering why you would not consider your foal as a black? My sister has a black foal from a black sire, and a palomino dam. She was black when born, but has lightened through winter, but should darken as she changes her next coat to black.
 

Teresa Byersdorf
Weanling
Username: Bravehart

Post Number: 24
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 09:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The foals dam was DNA tested as homozygous for agouti (bay), which means to colt cannot be only a black (both parents are homozygous for black). I've decided he must be a brown as brown does carry the agouti gene. The colt is sold now and just waiting to go to his new home at weaning. His new owners love his dark color ;)
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 259
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 09:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

His dam is a sooty buckskin, but only sooty on her neck/shoulder areas, the rest is a medium buckskin color.

There is your answer. The sooty gene can make any color so dark they look almost black. Even if your mare is not real dark with it her offspring can be much darker.
Here is a picture of our sooty buckskin.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v331/colosn/trot6.jpg
 

Teresa Byersdorf
Weanling
Username: Bravehart

Post Number: 25
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 01:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow..you mare is really dark, looks bay to me, not buckskin, at least in that photo. My mare isnt near so dark. She is a gold buckskin except for the sooty..and even that isn't "alot" of sooty, but she does have some on her neck/shoulder area.

I didnt realize they could be soo sooty as to look black when they have the bay gene that is supposed to limit the black to the points..but I guess that does not affect the sooty gene?
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 260
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 05:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually Timber is a stallion.

You are right the sooty gene and agouti gene are separate. Our sooty bay looks black except his flank and muzzle. He was born a beautiful red bay and the sooty became apparent when he shed his foal coat.
Here is another of Timber where he doesn't look quite so dark.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v331/colosn/Scan0001.jpg
 

Teresa Byersdorf
Weanling
Username: Bravehart

Post Number: 26
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Thursday, August 09, 2007 - 08:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ok, I think I understand now. My colt is a sooty bay to the point where he is almost black..the flank and muzzle is the only spots where you can see he is a bay now that he has shed out his baby coat.

I bred the mare to a different black/white stallion for next year..sure hope she passes on the buckskin and not the sooty next time! LOL

Sorry..I didnt look a the plumbing, just the color..Timber is a beautiful stud!



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