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Another colour question

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » Another colour question « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Saffron
Breeding Stock
Username: Saffron

Post Number: 249
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 04:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok since I am not very good at genetics I will ask you guys to help me again!

I now have my Pinto stallion (hooray) He is a dark brown tobiano (he has had 20 foals and mixed colours)

Now i have been offered a very good 2 year old mare for breeding next year and she is a reg. pinto but is bay....her father is a tobiano, is this enough to give me a reasonable shot at a tobiano foal? or is it still a high possibility of a bay? I was only thinking as she must have some colour in there somewhere it must up the chances or not? Thanks
 

Teresa Byersdorf
Neonate
Username: Bravehart

Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 05:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is the mare tobiano? If both your stud and the mare are tobiano, you have a 75% chance the foal will be tobiano. If your mare is solid, then you have 50% your foal is tobiano because your stud is.

Tobiano is a either you got it or you don't type gene. It does not matter what the other horses in the pedigree are. Tobiano is a simple dominate gene. If you have it..it can be passed forward. If you don't have it on the horse (physically showing)...then the horse does not have it to pass on.

Overo is not like that..it is a totally different type of color gene..but you don't say that the horses involved might carry it.
 

Saffron
Breeding Stock
Username: Saffron

Post Number: 250
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 09:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ah I see...the mare is brown solid! So that means she has no better chance of having a tobiano foal than any other solid mare? I thought she would carry it somewhere...ok then i know...i had better stick to coloured mares if i want a coloured foal!!
Thankyou!!
 

Teresa Byersdorf
Neonate
Username: Bravehart

Post Number: 3
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 10:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Right..she has no more chance of having a colored foal than any other solid colored mare...when your talking tobiano.

Unless the stud you bought is homozygous for the tobiano gene..if he is, then he will pass it on 100% of the time no matter what color the mare is. Otherwise, he will pass it on 50% of the time.
 

Saffron
Breeding Stock
Username: Saffron

Post Number: 251
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 01:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks...and the stallion is unfortunately not homozygous!
So out of my 4 solid colours i can hope to get 2 tobianos? No it works by chance so it is possible that i get none? Or 4?
Is there a very weak colour?, I mean of all my mares one brown, one grey, one bay and one black..is there a weaker colour there that makes it more likely to get a tobiano? Sorry if i sound like a complete idiot I cant grasp it all!
 

Teresa Byersdorf
Neonate
Username: Bravehart

Post Number: 4
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 01:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The base color of the horse makes no difference. The tobiano gene acts independtly of the base color genes. And yes, it's the overall average will be 50%..so you could get all 4 being tobiano or get none or something in between. Over the years, the average should work out to be about 50% tobiano.

There are only two base colors..black and red. Black is dominate over red. Grey and bay are color modifiers, although bay is always going to be black based. A grey horse could either be red or black based. I'm not sure what the story on brown is...get conflicting theories. Are you SURE the mare is brown and not black bay?
 

Saffron
Breeding Stock
Username: Saffron

Post Number: 252
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 03:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Whats the difference?
She is almost black but with brown points..muzzle is brown!
Does that mean then if black is dominant and red not then the black mare has less chance of a tobiano than a red based grey? Or once again it doesnt matter?
If a horse has a recessive color(dont actually know what color is recessive) and the stallion is tobiano which is dominant...surely then you will get a tobiano foal? or not?
 

Joyce
Weanling
Username: Luv2ridesaddleseat

Post Number: 45
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 01, 2007 - 05:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Saffron, the color gene is a totally different gene from the tobiano gene. Say for instance your mare is homozygous for black, your foal will come out either a black foal or there is a 50% chance the sire will throw the tobiano gene and the baby will be a blk tobiano. "Color" has nothing to do with whether or not the foal will be "tobiano." If one parent is a tobiano and not homozygous for tobiano, there is a 50% chance the foal will be tobiano.
 

Saffron
Breeding Stock
Username: Saffron

Post Number: 253
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 04:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks guys...it seems to be very black and white (ha ha) I will see what my luck brings!!
 

Valerie Myers
Neonate
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 8
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 02:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, I've just bred my APHA Bay Overo mare with an APHA Cremello stallion trying to get a Buckskin or Dun with color. Both the Stud and the Mare have a wonderful temperament and confirmation too. My mare has had 1 foal before and she is a nice Bay Overo with a little color. I've been wanting a Buckskin Paint for a long time.. done my research and this stud has thrown all Buckskins when crossed with Bays so here's hoping!!!
 

Valerie Myers
Neonate
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 9
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 02:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry, that should have been a AQHA Cremello Stallion!
 

Joyce
Weanling
Username: Luv2ridesaddleseat

Post Number: 46
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 05:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Best of luck to you Valerie!! I have a black and white tobiano, (homozygous), and someday I hope to breed her for a dream foal for myself. I hope everybody here gets their dream baby next year!!!
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 300
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Monday, July 02, 2007 - 09:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Saffron: The tobiano gene is the color gene. It dictates whether your horse will have white or not. If the horse is homozygous for tobiano (TT) then no matter what color the other horse is, it will be a tobiano or paint foal. Tobiano is a pattern of color placement on the horse. A tobiano looks like it has been splashed with white paint from the top down, and an Overo patterned horse looks like it was splashed from the bottom up (if that makes sense) Overos are usually more white faced than tobianos too. I think there is a link on here someplace that talks about the pattern placement on a horse.

Now, for the actual colors, like Teresa said, theres two basic ones... black and red.
Black is a dominant color over red, so if the horse is homozygous black and homozygous tobiano his genetic markers would be EE (black) and TT for tobiano. If he is not homozygous for black, then he would be Ee (one black and one red gene) and not homozygous for tobiano would be Tt or tt if it is a breeding stock (no tobiano pattern showing)

You can cross all colors of horses and unless you know their genetic makeup, its hard to know for sure what you are going to get....
For example, if the horse is homozygous for tobiano you are guaranteed a paint foal every time since the homzygous horse will pass a T gene (Tobiano pattern) to its foal. The other mate could be TT or Tt or tt and still with the one T from the homozygous mate, the foal will be a paint.

Now, if the horse is homozygous for black (EE) and the other horse is chestnut (ee), then you will get a black horse (Ee) since black is dominant over red.

If that first horse was heterozygous black (Ee) bred to a chestnut (ee), you could get a chestnut if both horses throw an e, or you could get a black Ee.

Now, you can throw in dilute genes (Cr) as in palomino, buckskin, dun perlino or cremello (the last two are homozygous for creme with two CrCr genes... and then you could get some dilute possibilities on top of your regular chestnut or black...

I have a bay homozygous tobiano mare, bred her to a buckskin homozygous tobiano stud last year and got a buckskin homozygous tobiano filly out of that cross this year. I could have also got a bay or a chestnut or palomino from that cross.

I have bred that same bay homo tobi to my perlino homo tobi this year for a buckskin or palomino homo tobi next March. Since the perlino is not homo for black, his genetic makeup is EeCrCrAaTT, and my mare is EeAATT since she is homozygous for both Agouti and Tobiano. That gives me a 75% chance of a buckskin since both horses have a black gene and a red gene and the perlino has two creme genes and will throw one of those into the mix.

Since black is dominant, the foal could be EECrTTAa, or EeCrTTAA or eeCrTTAa or eECrTTAA which gives me the 75% buckskin with the E showing up 3 out of 4 times.

The easiest way to look at it is that the tobiano gene is responsible for the pattern of color, not the actual color of the horse.
 

Valerie Myers
Nursing Foal
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 15
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 04:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Joyce, thanks. I'm excited about my dream foal, but I want them to be healthy more than anything. I'ts our first time from start to finish through an entire pregnancy to birth. So I'm excited about everything right now! LOL
 

Valerie Myers
Nursing Foal
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 16
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 04:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Debbie, my first stud pick was an APHA Perlino, but he didn't work out for live cover or collection, so we had to go AI from a very nice Cremello. I'm just learning about the genetics and the agouti gene myself. Had to do some research to find out what I needed in order to get my Buckskin Paint.
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 302
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 03, 2007 - 10:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My stallion is a perlino, EeCrCrTT, homozygous for creme and for tobiano. Hes trained to collect for AI and I had my mare, a homozygous bay homozygous tobiano crossed with him in April. I expect a homozygous tobiano buckskin foal next March, but there is also a 25% chance of a palomino from that cross if both throw a red gene into the mix.

Buckskins are in high demand, especially if they are homozygous for tobiano and well bred. My mare is Skipper W, Depth Charge, Dual Image etc and my Stallion is QT Poco Streke bred.

You can see them both on my website www.djscoloredcorral.com
 

Valerie Myers
Nursing Foal
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 18
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 01:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You're horses are beautiful! I'll send you mine if you can tell me how to download the pics, I can send them of my mare and give you the website for the stallion. thanks
 

Valerie Myers
Nursing Foal
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 19
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 01:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi, thank goodness for kids, they know how to do everything! I've got the links below. The stallion is Zippo Vanilla Bar out of BTS Country Cowboy (by Zippo Pine Bar) x Quincys McCue Tee, you can see him at the owner's website; http://www.himountaingold.com. My mare is Doc Hobby's Belle out of the Doc Bar and Hobby Horse lines. Both very quiet, kind and well bred horses. Here are the links to my mare's pics: ignore the other pics on my photobucket.. LOL

http://s89.photobucket.com/albums/k218/willows_majik/?action=view&current=horses 012.jpg

http://s89.photobucket.com/albums/k218/willows_majik/?action=view&current=horses 010.jpg
 

Jan Owen
Breeding Stock
Username: 1frosty1

Post Number: 433
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 02:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Valerie,
Very Pretty mare! I really like the stallion you bred too. Very exciting to see if you get color! Aren't kids wonderful when it comes to the techno stuff! :-)
 

Valerie Myers
Weanling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 21
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Wednesday, July 04, 2007 - 12:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Jan, yes kids are great with this stuff. I didn't have great pics of Belle on this laptop so when I get better ones loaded, I'll share. Well I'ts almost a sure thing I'll get a buckskin or dun with color, but with genetics nothing's 100%. It will fun to see what we get.
 

Teresa Byersdorf
Neonate
Username: Bravehart

Post Number: 6
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 05:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Valerie...buckskin and dun are two different color genes and not related. When breeding to a cremello or perlino, you will not get dun unless your mare is dun. A horse could in some instances carry both the creme gene and dun gene...but would have to be tested for that. A "Dunskin" is a horse that that carries the dun, creme, and agouti genes. I don't know what they call a horse that carries the creme and dun gene only...I'm sure there's a term for it.

Used to be buckskin and dun was called the same thing, but not anymore. It's been proven they are two different things. I have two buckskin mares...they do not carry the dun gene at all. They do not have a dorsal stripe or leg barrings, etc that would make them a dun.
 

Emily West
Breeding Stock
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 243
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 08:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Teresa,
I believe it is called a dunalino.
 

Valerie Myers
Weanling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 22
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 01:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey thanks Teresa, I was told it could be either or. But as long as I get a buckskin I don't care! I was told it could be a smokey black as well. Is that not true?
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 303
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 04:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Val: A bay to a cremello will give you a buckskin or a palomino depending on what your bay throws. The cremello has two red genes and two creme genes... would be eeCrCr. Your Bay could be EeAa or EEAa depending on whether she is homo for black or for agouti. Id say your chances are about 50-50 for palomino or buckskin and 50-50 for color since the stallion is AQHA he hasnt got a tobiano gene to pass. Since he is cremello, he has no black, Your mare could throw a T (Tobiano) or t no color if she is not homo for Tobiano.

If you don't get your buckskin this time around, best way to get a buckskin next time is to find a perlino homo tobi that is also homo for black. That way it eliminates the red based gene as black is dominant and you get your buckskin :-)

Like you say, half the fun is seeing what you end up with.
 

Valerie Myers
Weanling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 23
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 06:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok, well this is what I know, the sire is a proven 100% color producer, so I said he was AQHA earlier but that would make him an APHA Cremello, he's APHA Breeders Trust,IAHA Breeders Sweepstakes and AQHA Incentive Fund. My mare is out of Whitebird Hill a Sorrel Overo stallion and her Dam is Hobby Snipper Rey a Brown Tobiano. My mare was bred with Dashing Dandy Trojan, a Solid Chestnut QH, which gave us a filly that is a Bay Overo. So her color had to come from my mare right? Which means both my mare and the Cremello I just bred her too are throwing color. Now the Perlino I tried to breed her to first, would have given me a definite double diluted gene and a Buckskin, is that correct? But the Cremello might still throw me a Palomino with color?
 

Valerie Myers
Weanling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 24
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 07:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok I think I got it, the Perlino cross to my mare would only have given me 75/25 chance at a Buckskin since we don't know whether my mare is going to throw the black gene she carries. With the Cremello, it's a 50/50 shot for the same reason, Do I have it or am I still confused?? So basically, I'm gonna be hoping for black points!! My daughter will be thrilled if it comes out Palomino.
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 304
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 10:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Val.. the cremello is also a double dilute. The only difference between Cremello and Perlino is that a cremello is a diluted palomino and a perlino is a diluted buckskin... so the cremello doesnt have a black gene, where the perlino could have two black genes, or one.. Yes, the perlino cross to your bay, like my perlino to my bay, would give you a 75% chance of buckskin since the bay has at least one black and the perlino has at least one black, and then throw in red gene so you get EE, or Ee or eE or ee, 75% black based horse.

Now, in the cremellos case, your bay would be EeAa or EeAA, and the cremello is eeAa or eeAA depending on the Agouti gene. Has your mare ever had a black bodied foal? A bay is a black horse technically but the agouti gene restricts the black to the points, making it a bay instead of a black.

If your cremello is actually APHA and not AQHA, then hes a tobiano or overo and has a paint gene. Same for your bay mare, so even if neither of them is homozygous for the tobiano gene, you have a 75% chance of a paint foal from two tobiano horses.

As far as the foal color, with a cremello and bay cross, you have the following possibilities:

Offspring Color Probability

37.50% - Palomino Tobiano
32.81% - Buckskin Tobiano
12.50% - Palomino
10.94% - Buckskin
4.69% - Smoky Black Tobiano
1.56% - Smoky Black

Theres a great website for imputting coat color information of sire and dam and getting foal color possibilities...

http://www.horsetesting.com/CCalculator3.asp
 

Emily West
Breeding Stock
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 245
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Thursday, July 05, 2007 - 11:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actaully Zippos Vanilla Bar is a Solid Paint. So unless he has a hidden overo gene you will have a 50% chance of getting a Paint with color. By color I mean spots. You will get a dilute gened foal no matter what.
Debbie, I just found that place awhile back and absolutely love it.

According to the calculator if niether one is AA here are your chances.
25.00% - Buckskin Overo
25.00% - Buckskin
16.67% - Palomino Overo
16.67% - Palomino
8.33% - Smoky Black Overo
8.33% - Smoky Black

And if one is AA.

33.34% - Buckskin Overo
33.34% - Buckskin
16.67% - Palomino Overo
16.67% - Palomino
 

Valerie Myers
Weanling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 25
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 01:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, holy smokes, now I"m really confused! Ok so my mare has only had one foal in the past, and she's a bay overo with black points. The stallion is a 100% color producer. So I think I'm getting color no matter what, but man this should be interesting to see what we get. I'm going to check out that calculator, thanks for sharing.
 

Valerie Myers
Weanling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 26
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 01:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ok so here's another question for you ladies. I have a buckskin mare that is solid buckskin with white socks and a two colored mane and tail. Does that still make her a solid BS paint or a Tobiano.
 

Valerie Myers
Weanling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 27
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 02:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No matter what, my chances of a buckskin body are higher than the Palomino percentage, so that makes me hopeful. color or not= If I get a buckskin I'll be happy. Of course, his palomino babies are gorgeous too! Very interesting. I punched in the info as mostly unknown for my bay overo mare and if I had bred her to the Perlino we first looked at, we had a 25% chance of having a Lethal White foal. Now thats scary...glad we ended up with the Cremello!
 

Emily West
Breeding Stock
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 246
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 08:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Valerie,
Not to confuse you even more but the calculator is incorrect about the lethel white foal. Well put it this way it could be correct but it assumes that both overos carry the lethel white gene. This is not the case. The only way to have known for sure would have been to test both your mare and the perlino stud. Also the calculator assumes that because a horse is not an overo that they cannot carry the lethel white gene. This is untrue. Allthough the highest precentage of lethel white carriers in Paints are the frame overos the gene can be carried by a horse with any other pattern including a solid Paint. So there again the only way to make sure it won't happen is to get both the mare and stud tested.
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 305
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 09:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I checked Zippo Vanilla Bar's progeny records with the APHA. He has had 5 foals, 4 solids and one paint. They were one buckskin paint out of a paint mare, and 4 palominos solids, one of which was out of a paint mare as well (which goes along with the fact that he has no black gene to pass, so hes more likely to throw palomino or red gene horses. Interestingly enough he has had 4 colts and 1 filly out of the 5 that have been born so far.

He is registered as a cremello solid therefore we can assume he has no paint gene to pass and cannot therefore be said to be a 100% color producer as color defined by paint.

The buckskin mare you describe would be a breeding stock and have no paint gene to pass on either. As was said in an earlier posting, if they dont show the paint, they dont have it.

I breed only Tobianos and am not familiar with the overos or the lethal whites. I do not breed Toveros or Overos as the likelihood of Lethals is higher. To be sure, you should always test your mares and if breeding to an overo, be sure that the stallion is also tested for LWO gene. That way you arent going to be waiting a year for a foal only to lose it to a painful and totally avoidable death.


Deb
 

Teresa Byersdorf
Neonate
Username: Bravehart

Post Number: 7
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 12:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The two colored mane and tail might mean she is tobiano...just depends on how much white is showing. I beleive you have to have 8? square inches of white on a mature horse for the APHA to count it as qualifying white. If most of the top of the tail bone is white and some of the mane is white..it could qualify. I too have a horse with a "two tone" tail. A good 8 inches or more of the tail bone is white, the bottom part is black. She has other white on her body..not much, but I think if it was based only on her tail, she would have qualified.
 

Valerie Myers
Weanling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 28
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 01:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Ladies, ok so when they say that Zippo is 100% color producer they must be talking about either Palomino or Buckskin, not color like we would be thinking as in spots.. I'd love a colt so that's cool too. I hope my mare throws some black in there! I really want a buckskin over the Palomino. Is the only way to test to see if she is AA is to have blood work done? And can my regular vet do that?

Oh, so just because my buckskin mare is buckskin and possibly a Tobiano, doesn't mean she's gonna pass any of that on, right? I have a 15 month filly out of her right now that is a Strawberry Roan. My buckskin was bred to a Grey, he's a beautiful darker blue grey with black mane and tail. The filly is very nice, but she is a sorrel that is roaning out big time but keeping her reddish mane and tail.
 

Emily West
Breeding Stock
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 247
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 01:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Valerie,
Correct they are talking about his dilute gene.

You can get the test done with hair usually pulled from the mane. It is really easy and costs vary from $20-$60. The place that has the color calculator does testing as well as UC Davis.

Here is another possible reason for the white at the top of your buckskin mares tail. It is called Rabicano. Someone here or on a another forum mentioned it. I don't know a lot about it. It also could be the reason her filly looks roan seeing you did not mention whether or not either parent was roan. Although if the sire was grey it could be hard to tell. Here is the link to some info.

http://www.equinecolor.com/rabicano.html
 

Valerie Myers
Weanling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 29
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 03:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Emily, wow I didn't know there was another pattern. Well the sire of this little filly who I think is going to be a Strawberry Roan, could be graying out. All of the sorrel babies he's sired have gone gray. But She looks more like she's going to roan out not turn completely.

I live in the Sacramento Valley, so I can get my pregnant Bay mare tested for the AA gene and see if she is Homo for the Black or not. Too late now either way, it'll be whatever it's gonna be and I'll be on pins and needles until then!
 

Valerie Myers
Weanling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 30
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 03:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Emily, I have another question. How do I know if my Bay Overo Mare is a Frame Overo not Sabino? I keep reading that usually Frame Overo's have at least one blue eye. But both of my Bay Overo Mares have brown eyes. And I think they look more Frame than Sabino.
 

Valerie Myers
Weanling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 31
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 03:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just realized that I said I needed to get my mare tested to see if she is Homo for Black and I said AA but it should have been EE. AA would be agouti.
 

Valerie Myers
Weanling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 32
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 03:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Or is that the same thing..This is confusing.
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 306
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 05:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Val: I tested my filly with UC Davis in California. I had to pull 60 tail hairs since she was just a month old at the time. I think with a mature horse you can do mane hairs. You can test for black and also for Agouti. The test will come back with the red/black test and the Agouti test.

If you want to test for tobiano that is a blood test.

if you look up UC Davis website and look for the equine tab, then you can link to the testing requirements and costs. You can download and print off the paperwork required. It even gives you a sheet to tape the mane hairs to and fold. I found it very easy to use. Pay online and mail it off. I had my results in about 10 days from when they received my foals tail hair. They also email you the results before you get them in the snail mail. Ive used UC Davis for all my color testing.

Im not familiar with the tobiano testing requirements as I breed homo tobianos, so all my foals are homo for tobiano. No need to test for that.

EE is homo for black
Ee is black
ee is chestnut
eE is black
AA is homo for Agouti gene
Aa is not.
Cr is one creme gene ( buckskin, palomino)
CrCr is two creme genes (perlino, cremello)

Just to confuse you more, did you know that even if you get a palomino from this cross, it could be homo for Agouti? You could not know since the palomino would have no black to restrict, but it could still be there and would not show until some day you crossed that palomino with a bay or black and never got a black based horse from the cross.

Kinda cool how the genes dictate color and the tobiano gene dictates where the white is going to be placed on the horse

Deb
 

Valerie Myers
Weanling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 33
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 05:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Deb, funny, I just finished registering at the UCD VGL website. I only live 30 minutes from UC Davis,I actually work for the UCD Davis Medical Center in Sacramento. I didn't know about any of this stuff, but it's my first time breeding for color and etc. I am having the Lethal White and the Coat color tests done. I just paid and am waiting for the confirmation with bar codes to send with the sample. The lady I spoke with said it can be mane or tail about 20-30 strands. The Tobiano Requirements are that both parents must be Tobiano. Belle comes from a Brown Tobiano Dam and a Chestnut Overo Sire. So I couldn't test her for the Tobiano gene.
 

Emily West
Breeding Stock
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 248
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 06:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Valerie,
I have seen the picture of your one mare and I would say she looks frame to me. Also we have a frame overo with brown eyes and I have seen many others that do not have blue eyes.

It is all very interesting and equine color genetics have fascinated me for years!!
 

Valerie Myers
Weanling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 34
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 06:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok just so I understand, being Homozygous for (Agouti) means that they will have and will throw the Agouti gene or they have it but not throw it? I guess I'm confused by what you said about this foal if it's a palomino and if it were HOMO for Agouti, and if I crossed it with a Black Based horse, I would only get a non black based horse? What does that mean, I would get a Palomino,Buckskin, cremello etc?

Also if my bay overo mare comes back as Homo for Agouti, does that mean that my chances with Zippo and her will increase for a Buckskin since she will throw the AA and the black will be on the points, so that would be a buckskin? Sorry if you have to explain so much, this is quite confusing and far more complicatd than I originally thought!
 

Emily West
Breeding Stock
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 249
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 06:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just something else to add. Paints can also have partial blue eyes. When you look at their eyes at just the right angle they look deep blue. Most of our Paints have that.
 

Emily West
Breeding Stock
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 250
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 06:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, if she is AA she will always throw the agouti gene. Meaning even if she or another stud that has a black gene were to pass that black gene to the foal it would be bay( providing there is no dilute gene). She could never produce a black horse.
I haven't yet tested our mare for agouti, she is sorrel, but she has thrown two black colts. That means there is a chance she is aa.

Your chances for buckskin would increase slightly because there would be no chance for a smoky black( black horse with one cream gene).
 

Valerie Myers
Weanling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 35
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 06:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Emily, I thought she was a frame Overo but it's so confusing! Interesting, but confusing. I will pull her mane hairs tonight and send them in tomorrow, should get results back in about 10 days they said. So in order to get my buckskin out of these two (Belle and Zippo, also known as Zeus), She needs to have what, (AA, Ae, EE, Ea) to make it a buckskin over the Palomino? My head is starting to hurt!
 

Emily West
Breeding Stock
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 251
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 06:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe you said that your mare was out of a sorrel overo. That means she cannot be EE. She will only carry one black gene. So the only thing that will changes is if she is AA no chance for a smoky black.
 

Valerie Myers
Weanling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 36
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 06:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok I get it finally! The agouti gene acts to lighten the hairs on the body, but it does not affect the legs, mane or tail, which is why they remain black. So on our diluted foal if Belle is Homo for Agouti or AA, I'll get a diluted foal with black restricted to the points giving me a Buckskin! I think I need a nap after this! LOL

I never really thought much of it, but yes Belle's eyes are blue in the middle of brown and so are her daughter's.
 

Valerie Myers
Weanling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 37
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 06:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes she has a sorrel Overo sire so that eliminates the smokey black, well that would have been my 2nd choice! LOL Well I've worn the calculator out and my chances are still good on a buckskin, so we'll have to see what the tests come back with from UCD.
 

Emily West
Breeding Stock
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 252
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 06:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Right, it restricts the black to the points of the body legs, mane, tail,etc. So if she is AA and passes on her black gene you will get a buckskin!!!
 

Emily West
Breeding Stock
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 253
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 06:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It doesn't eliminate a smoky black but it would be a very small chance.

I am really looking forward to when this foal comes so we can see what he or she will be!!!! I hope you get everything you want!!

And that nap is sounding really good to me too!!
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 307
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 08:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Val: Think of Homo for Agouti as a gene that changes a black bodied horse into a bay or buckskin if there is a creme gene in there too.

When I said that even a palomino or chestnut or any red based horse can be homo for Agouti, I was just letting you know that even if you can't see black on the horse, it doesnt mean that the horse hasnt inherited the gene from one or both of its parents.

I am guessing that your mare will come back EeAa or EeAA, depending. Since she has a sorrel parent, she cant be homo for black, she got an e from that parent and an E from the other parent if shes a Bay. I am not sure of the percentages of homozygous Agouti AA in horses and didnt really start looking into it until my own mare came back EeAA. I had wanted a black and white and with her being AA I will never get a black/white foal from her as she will always thrown an A, even if I bred her to a black and white tobiano, the resulting foal would be bay.

If she is AA you wont get a smokey black foal, but a buckskin would be nice :-)
 

Valerie Myers
Weanling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 38
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, July 06, 2007 - 11:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well after many explanations later and alot of patience, I think I finally understand, at least what I need to for now! Thanks for all of your help Debbie and Emily. I pulled her mane hairs when I got home and Debbie you're right, the paper says 50-60 so that's what I did it's sealed and ready for mailing. My breeder has a beautiful Black and White Tobiano stallion,maybe next time, I'll breed my buckskin BS paint mare to him!

I'll definitely keep you posted on Belle's progress. We plan to setup a webcast so I'll be sure to give you the link and let you know when she's close. It is exciting to see what happens, you'll one excited mare owner!
 

Valerie Myers
Weanling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 39
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Sunday, July 08, 2007 - 01:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Emily, I checked my sorrel filly that I thought might be going strawberry roan, and I think you hit it! She very well could be a Rabicano. She has the definite white bars across the base of her tail with roaning throughout her flanks and belly. There seems to be roaning all over but mostly there. The tail markings are identical to the ones shown in the pics on that website. Unless she gray's out, she looks to be Rabicano. Is that considered an actual paint color or just the name for the markings?
 

Emily West
Breeding Stock
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 254
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 08, 2007 - 10:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have never seen it reconized as a Paint pattern. According to my genetics book it is something that is rare and there has not been much research done on it. However it did say that it seems to be a family trait "thing". So there is a good possibility that your mare will throw it again!!!
 

Valerie Myers
Weanling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 40
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Sunday, July 08, 2007 - 12:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's really interesting. I need to read up more on genetics. This stuff is facinating. I read somewhere that the Rabicano is similar to the APHA Sabino.
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 308
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Sunday, July 08, 2007 - 04:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In Canada we refer to the Rabicano as White Ticking.

White Ticking is limited to a few white hairs at the base of the tail and in the flank. On horses with extreme ticking the pattern is lightest in the flank area and can blend into vertical roal stripes over the ripcage. This pattern is rarely extensive enough to be confused with roaning.

Rabicano is the spanish term for the pattern called skunk or coon tail. There is some roaning or striping over the base of the tail and occurs on any base color. It doesnt change or fade over time.

Roaning by contrast is the mixture of white hairs in the base color of the coat. My mare has this on her sides and at the tops of her legs above her knees. Her foal, has birdcatcher spots on her neck on both sides just below her ears, in addition to shadows, which is a black shadow around each transition between buckskin and white in her pattern. Her mother also has the shadows in her coat though not all paint horses have this definition between white and color.
Deb
 

Teresa Byersdorf
Neonate
Username: Bravehart

Post Number: 8
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Sunday, July 08, 2007 - 05:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A true roan horse will also always keep a dark colored head and legs with the body being lighter color due to the roaning. Many folks call the sabino gene "roan" in error. Sabino can vary from just a blaze and leg white (like a clydesdale) to full and complete white of the horse. The head does not stay darker than the body as it does with roan.
 

Valerie Myers
Weanling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 41
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 06:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

my filly is sorrel paint with the scatterd white hairs around her belly, flanks and has the skunk tail. Her dam is a buckskin paint and has the dark bar like shadows on her chest, the skunk tail and is very dappled.
Both of my Bay Overo mares have dark bar like shadows on their chests with some scattered white throughout, no skunk tail. They are all related in fact.
 

Valerie Myers
Weanling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 42
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 07:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Emily and Debbie,UCD has confirmed receipt of my sample from Belle as of Monday, 7/9, so I should have somer results in the next few days. I have also emailed the owners of Zippo (Zeus)to see if they have done any genetic testing on him as well. Hope to know something soon.
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 309
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 09:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Very exciting Val. It took my sample 21 days to get to UC Davis from Canada. I suspect they sat on it at the border for a while before letting it through even though it had import permits attached. You should have your results by the end of the week as it was only 3 days after I got the email that they got my sample that I got the email of the results, then a week later got the snail mail version.

Deb
 

Emily West
Breeding Stock
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 259
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 11:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great, I am looking forward to hearing the results!!
 

Valerie Myers
Weanling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 43
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Friday, July 13, 2007 - 03:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I got the results from Zippo's owners, and am very excited to announce that he is actually Aa for Agouti!!!! At least that's something! Since UCD got my sample within 1 business day, they said they would have my results within 5 days. I only live 20 minutes from there! I can't wait to see Belle's!
 

Valerie Myers
Weanling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 44
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 02:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi All, ok sorry I got the results yesterday but have been swamped.. I'm excited to find out that Belle is AA for Agouti! She is Ee for Red. So after punching all the info into the calculator, I still have no idea what it's going to be LOL.. But this is what it said:
25% Palomino
25% Palomino Overo
25% Buckskin
25% Buckskin Overo

But it's good to know that she is Dominant for Agouti with the AA and Zippo is Aa for Agouti, so there's hope!
It's still gonna be a surprise!!
 

Valerie Myers
Weanling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 45
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 03:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh Jan, the results show that Belle is N/O for Lethal White meaning she does carry 1 copy of the Lethal White gene.. So If she's bred with another horse that also carries 1 copy of the Lethal White gene, the results say there is a 25% chance of a Lethal White Foal..
 

Valerie Myers
Weanling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 46
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 03:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I meant Emnily not Jan, sorry!
 

Valerie Myers
Weanling
Username: Libertybelle

Post Number: 47
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 03:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok I can't spell today, EMILY! LOL
 

Emily West
Breeding Stock
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 265
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 03:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That is great about her being AA. Gives you a better chance at getting that bucksin you have always wanted. Glad you had her tested for olws. It is good to know for future breedings.
Can't wait until next year to see what you get!!
 

Dorthy Brown
Breeding Stock
Username: Dodib

Post Number: 133
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 11:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry to jump on the post but I have a question if I have a breeding stock Paint thats parents were overo--does she still have a chance of throwing Overo foals??? What are the percentages?
 

Emily West
Breeding Stock
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 267
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 12:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have no idea what the percentages would be but there would be a small chance that she is hiding the fact that she is an overo. Does she have any white on her at all? Like socks or a white face? I do know that it can happen otherwise there would never be any cropout foals,( overo baby out of two registered Quarter Horses).
 

Saffron
Breeding Stock
Username: Saffron

Post Number: 259
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 02:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi me again...how do you get a homozygous tobiano?? Presumably from 2 tobiano parents? Can you predict if a foal will be homozygous or is there also a chance factor? or must 1 parent be homozygous or both???
Thanks guys
 

Saffron
Breeding Stock
Username: Saffron

Post Number: 260
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 02:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh yeah i ask because i will be putting my non homozygous stallion to a tobiano mare and wondered if we had a chance of a homozygous tob baby!!
 

Teresa Byersdorf
Nursing Foal
Username: Bravehart

Post Number: 15
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 02:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You would have 25% chance of getting a homozygous baby. 25% chance of getting a solid (assuming the mare is non-homozygous like the stud), and 50% chance of getting a non-homozygous tobiano baby.

So..75% chance of getting tobiano with 25% of that chance being homozygous tobiano.
 

Dorthy Brown
Breeding Stock
Username: Dodib

Post Number: 136
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 03:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To answer your question yes she has a blaze and 2 socks that are up to close to her knees and then like 1/2 a sock on one leg and then jsut a spot of white at the hoof on the other leg
 

Teresa Byersdorf
Nursing Foal
Username: Bravehart

Post Number: 16
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Friday, July 20, 2007 - 03:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dorothy..you would have to test your mare to see if she is carrying the overo gene. Since she is a breedstock out of two overo parents..and overo can be passed along without showing color...she *might* carry the gene and not have color herself. Which means, she would have a 50% chance of passing on color to her offspring. BUT..you need to have her tested to find out if she has the gene..if she does not..she herself has zero chance of passing color on. You could breed her to a colored stallion to get odds of color though.
 

Sandy Smith
Breeding Stock
Username: Sandystone

Post Number: 153
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Monday, July 23, 2007 - 08:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dorothy - I think it totally depends on what stallion you breed to. If you absolutely want color, then breed to a stallion that is homozygous for Tobiano. Check out the sire of my babies, Image of Champions at www.sunrisefarmdawn.com. You can view all his foals and see all the colorful babies! His breeding fee is not outrageous either.



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