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Grey Stud Out of Two Non Grey parents (I'm Stumped)

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » Grey Stud Out of Two Non Grey parents (I'm Stumped) « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Kala Hadley
Neonate
Username: Kala0

Post Number: 1
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Monday, June 25, 2007 - 11:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I always thought that in order to get a gre foal you had to have at least one grey parent. This colt is a 5 year old that we raised and was buckskin when he was born. His mother is a ba out of a dark bay mare and a bay and white tobiano stud and his fathe is a cremello out of a cremello mare and a palomino father. any ideas?
 

Lynn
Nursing Foal
Username: Macbeth

Post Number: 18
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 02:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am sure I am right by saying, there has to be some grey hiding in the parents of this colt. Maybe the cremello sire has a grey gene from its cremello dam. It would be very difficult to see the grey gene's affect on a cremello.

Just a thought. Is it possible to see pics of your boy.
 

Snaffle1
Neonate
Username: Snaffle1

Post Number: 1
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 08:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If both parents carry the recessive gene then it is possible to get a foal of recessive color. Example: Two people have brown eyes but both carry the blue recessive gene. BR for brown and b for blue BR/b (parent one) and BR/b (parent two) then they would have a 25 percent chance of getting a blue eyed child. If one of the parents were BR/BR then they would always have a brown eyed child. Hope this helps.
 

Lynn
Nursing Foal
Username: Macbeth

Post Number: 19
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 08:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That would be true if the grey gene was a recessive one, but as far as I know this is not the case.
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 253
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 09:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lynn I think you hit the nail on the head. I know of a cremello stallion that indeed was gray and could only prove it by the gray foals he produced. You could not tell by looking at him.
You are correct about gray being a dominant gene.
 

Snaffle1
Neonate
Username: Snaffle1

Post Number: 2
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 08:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't disagree that gray is dominant. But the cremello stallion you are referring to in the above post would not carry a gray gene. When offspring is born a recessive color they are double recessive. The mare he was bred to had to be carrying the gray gene which dominated his color gene pool, if she also carrys a recessive they could have either color. So in response to the original question of how this can happen was all I was trying to explain. Dominant will not always win out IF both parents carry a recessive gene. BUT if you get one parent who is a double dominant you will NEVER get a recessive color out of them.
}
 

Lynn
Weanling
Username: Macbeth

Post Number: 24
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 11:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Snaffle, the grey gene has nothing to do with the actual colour of a horse. What I mean by this is every horse is either red (chestnut) or black (black, bay) genetically at birth. Black being dominant, red being recessive. A chestnut horse always carries 2 recessive genes and a black/bay could carry one of the genes, but it will be hidden by the dominant black one.

The greying gene is an additional gene which it has to obtained by a direct parent either sire or dam and is a colour modifier, as is the dilute gene. It does not change the fact that a horse is either red or black at birth and this is were the dominant or recessive question comes. Grey is definately dominant and therefore for this foal to be grey either its mother or father must carry the grey gene. As the mother is a bay, with no greying, the gene must have been aquired from the cremello father. Being cremello it would be impossible to see the affects of the gene on his base colour therefore could easily be missed.
 

Beverly
Nursing Foal
Username: Iluvhorses

Post Number: 15
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 02:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You are correct about the cremello being able to carry a grey gene & not express it. I know of a TWh who is like this. He has also sired a sooty buckskin out of a palomino mare which is IMPOSSIBLE...
 

Teresa Byersdorf
Neonate
Username: Bravehart

Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 02:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sounds like the cremello is really a perlino. I've seen lots of folks calling a horse a cremello when it in fact was perlino. A perlino and palomino could definatly have a buckskin foal.
 

Snaffle1
Neonate
Username: Snaffle1

Post Number: 3
Registered: 06-2007
Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 03:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

{http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equine_coat_color_genetics,http://en.wikipedia.org/ wiki/Equine_coat_color_genetics} This is a fair site at explaing the genetics. If you take a look at the chart it shows that a cremello cannot produce a gray. I am not a genetic expert so maybe they are wrong. I find this all real interesting as I just finished a genetics course in animal sciences and it never failed to confuse me. I did pass though with an "A" Wonder if the instuctor was just kind!! LOL
 

E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Ev_watkins

Post Number: 220
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 05:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Snaffle1- a cremello could carry the gray genetics and not show it.. how would you tell with the light coat a cremello has if there were white hairs intermingled in it?? The cremello stud was out of a cremello mare and she most certainly could have carried the gray modifier. I'd be curious to follow that pedigree back further to be see where the gray came into play. I'd put money that back somewhere in the pedigree there's a gray horse.
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 255
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 09:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'd put money that back somewhere in the pedigree there's a gray horse.

I'd put money on it too :-)


Snaffle the chart is very literal. It means it is not possible without any modifying genes.

(Message edited by Cathy on June 27, 2007)
 

Heather Kutyba
Breeding Stock
Username: Heatherck11

Post Number: 603
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 11:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is an excerpt from the UC Davis equine genetics testing site:

"Since gray is produced by a dominant gene, at least one parent of a gray horse must be gray. If a gray horse does not have a gray parent, then it should be seriously considered that the purported parentage is incorrect."
http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/~lvmillon/coatcolor/coatclr3.html#fig1a
 

delia Kramer
Weanling
Username: Delia

Post Number: 23
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Sunday, January 20, 2008 - 10:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yep I agree with Heather-You have to have a gray to get a gray. It is a modifier not a dilute. Dilutes are born dilutes. Grays are born a base color that will gray out, either slow or fast depending on the gene. One parent must be gray. I would question the the parentage of this horse.
 

susan lewis
Weanling
Username: Luv4mastiffs567

Post Number: 46
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2008 - 10:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I TO HAVE A GRAY STALLION FROM A BLACK AND WHITE TOBIANO STUD AND A SORRELL AND WHITE PAINT MARE. I'VE ALWAYS READ THAT ONE PARENT HAD TO BE GRAY BUT NOW I KNOW THATS NOT THE CASE.
 

Tracy Smith
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 1353
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 01:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan, do you have an extensive pedigree of your stallion with the colors of all the horses? It is impossible to have a grey horse without one parent being grey. My bet is either the stallion or dam has not greyed out yet so they still look black and white or chestnut and white although that would be unusual for the resulting foal to already be grey.

Genetics don't lie though and if you have a grey without one parent being grey then you better notify the Guiness Book of World Records because you just made history!
 

Karen W
Neonate
Username: All4paints

Post Number: 7
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 02:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Are we going just on colors these horses are registered as ? most horses are registered as weanlings. Some owners register the color of the baby {the base color} only after the horse turns grey & registration is never changed.so can happen to have horses in a grey horse pedigree to have showing non grey parents on paper. Also some horses are late to grey out had a friend that had buckskin mare sold her at 4 yrs old yes .person thought she was buying a buckskin mare only to have her turn totally grey by 6 yrs old.
 

Tracy Smith
Senior Stallion or Mare
Username: Tracys

Post Number: 1354
Registered: 08-2007
Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 03:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Karen, that's a very good point. A lot of horses have been registered as one color but then never changed when their true color came out. I'm sure there are plenty of horses that looked chestnut for example but then greyed out, however their papers still state chestnut. Or bay, black, whatever :-)
 

susan lewis
Weanling
Username: Luv4mastiffs567

Post Number: 47
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 09:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WELL I GUESS I'M GOING TO HAVE TO NOTIFY THE GUINESS BOOK OR WORLD RECORDS BECAUSE HE IS GRAY. HE IS A DAPPLE GRAY. I ALSO DONT KNOW THE WHOLE PEDIGREE ON MY STALLIONS BACKGROUND BUT I'M VERY GOOD FRIENDS WITH THE PERSON WHO I BOUGHT MY MINI FROM. I WAS THERE WHEN HE WAS BORN. HIS DAM IS 9 YEARS OLD AND YES SHE IS A SORREL AND WHITE PAINT. NO GRAY AT ALL AND HIS SIRE IS BLACK AND WHITE. NO MISTAKEN HIM FOR GRAY. HE IS 11 YEARS OLD. I DONT KNOW IF HE'S NOT GOING TO EVER TURN GRAY. THAT I DONT KNOW. MY LITTLE STUD WAS BORN A LIGHT CHOCOLATE COLOR WITH A LIGHT GREY MANE AND WHEN HE SHED OUT HE WAS A DARK DAPPLE GRAY.
 

Emily West, Zita born 4/12
Breeding Stock
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 761
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 10:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan,
Do you have pictures to share because I would love to see them!!
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 311
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 10:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan I would say you should have the foal parnatage verified though DNA. If he is grey and indeed neither parent are someone has pulled a fast one.
 

susan lewis
Weanling
Username: Luv4mastiffs567

Post Number: 48
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2008 - 11:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

CATHY, I DIDNT SEE THEM BREED THE MARE AND THE STUD TOGETHER BUT HE WAS THE ONLY ONE THEY HAD AND STILL HAVE RIGHT NOW, OH WAIT!! I DO REMEMBER WHEN I BOUGHT MY COLT THAT THEY HAD AN OLDER GRAY ALMOST WHITE STUD FOR SALE BUT HE WAS DOWN THE ROAD AT THE NIEGHBORS HOUSE. I DID THOUGH GET A BREEDING REPORT FROM THEM. RIGHT NOW HE'S 2 YEARS OLD AND I BOUGHT HIM WHEN HE WAS 9 MONTHS OLD. I KNOW FOR SURE ON THE MOTHER AS I WAS THERE WHEN HE WAS BORN. HE IS REGISTERED BUT I NEVER SENT THEM IN AND THE STUD IS ON THERE AS HIS SIRE. I REMEMBER THOUGH WHEN HE WAS BORN, THEY COULD SEE THE DARK GRAY UNDERCOAT AND WERE SHOCKED AS THEY KNEW HE WAS GOING TO BE GRAY. HES A REALLY DARK STEEL BLUE GRAY.
NOW I'M JUST WONDERING IF MAYBE THE OTHER STUD GOT HER. BUT HE LOOKS JUST LIKE THE BLACK AND WHITE STUD. TO A T!! WHO KNOWS. CAN THEY GET IN TROUBLE FOR PUTTING THE WRONG STUD ON THERE.
HIS SIRE IS BLACK AND WHITE AND HAS BLUE EYES. HE IS DEFENITLY BLACK AND WHITE. HE IS BEAUTIFUL.
I WOULDN'T THINK THEY WOULD LIE TO ME ABOUT HIS DADDY. I HAVE ALWAYS READ THOUGH THAT ONE PARENT HAD TO BE GRAY TO GET A GRAY BABIE AND I TALKED TO MY VET AND HE TOLD ME THATS NOT TRUE. I DONT KNOW. LOL I LOVE HIM NO MATTER WHAT AND HES MY BABY.
I DONT HAVE PICS OF THE SIRE AND DAM BUT I DO HAVE PICS OF HIM WITH HIS WINTER COAT AND SUMMER COAT. IN THE WINTER HE'S A CHOCOLATE COLOR, VERY WIERD, THEN WHEN HE SHEDS HE'S A REAL DARK GRAY.
WHEN I BOUGHT HIM IT WAS KINDA WIERD TO ME THAT A GRAY CAME FROM THOSE TO MIXED TOGETHER BUT THEY HAD JUST TOLD ME THAT WITH MINIATURE HORSES ITS A GAMBLE WITH COLOR.
WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK...
 

Emily West, Zita born 4/12
Breeding Stock
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 762
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, July 07, 2008 - 10:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan, if they knowingly put the wrong stud on the papers they could get in trouble but this isn't the first time I have heard of there being a mix-up and it could very well be they didn't know the other stud bred the mare. :-)
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 312
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, July 07, 2008 - 04:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan After reading your discripion of your horses color it sounds like he may be a black silver. Check out this link and scroll down to the black silver mini's and tell me if this is what he looks like.
http://equinecolor.com/silver.html
 

Emily West, Zita born 4/12
Breeding Stock
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 764
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, July 07, 2008 - 06:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cathy, I had been wondering if it was possibly a silver gene. Thanks for sharing that link.
 

susan lewis
Weanling
Username: Luv4mastiffs567

Post Number: 49
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Monday, July 07, 2008 - 11:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK GUYS I GOT THE PICS ON PHOTO BUCKET SO I CAN SHOW YOU. IN THE FIRST PIC YOU CAN REALLY SEE HOW DARK HE IS. THE SECOND PIC YOU CAN SEE HE HAS SOME CHOCOLATE COLOR ON HIS BACK THIGH AND LEGS. WIERD COLOR. WHAT COLOR DO YOU THINK HE IS.
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm148/luv4mastiffs567/juniorspiritandbryon028 .jpg

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm148/luv4mastiffs567/juniorspiritandbryon010 .jpg
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 315
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 12:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Now after seeing pictures of him I am convinced he is silver. There is a test for silver now if you want to test him to make sure. If you are going to use him as a stallion I would suggest you do it, so mare owners know what color they can get.
Here is a link to a lab that does the test for $25.
http://www.animalgenetics.us/Equine.htm

I wish you had pictures of his parents so we could see their color also.
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 316
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 12:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Emily I have always thought it was the best color site on the web. They also have a forum.
 

susan lewis
Weanling
Username: Luv4mastiffs567

Post Number: 50
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 12:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

SO IS HE BLACK SILVER OR CHOCOLATE SILVER. I'VE BEEN LOOKING AT DIFFERENT COLORS AND I'M NOT SURE. IN THE WINTER HES A LIGHT CHOCOLATE COLOR WITH THE WHITISH GRAY MANE AND TAIL. LOOKS MORE WHITE BUT WHEN HE SHEDS OUT HES SOOO DARK WITH DAPPLES AND HIS MANE AND TAIL NEVER CHANGES. ON HIS LESG AND THIGHS THOUGH THE CHOCOLAT COLOR STAYS. SO THATS WHY I WAS THINKING CHOCOLATE SILVER. COULD I BE RIGHT?
SHOOT I ALWAYS THOUGHT HE WAS JUST GRAY... LOL I DONT HAVE ANY PICS OF HIS MOM OR DAD BUT I DID READ THAT CHESNUTS ARE CARRIERS FOR THE SILVER GENE. SOMETHING I DIDNT KNOW I EVEN HAD... LOL
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 317
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 12:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan at least you now know he is not grey.
You can have him tested for black if you wanted to know for sure.
Like I said before, if your going to breed him I would want to know for sure.
 

susan lewis
Yearling
Username: Luv4mastiffs567

Post Number: 51
Registered: 05-2008
Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 12:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

YOU KNOW I WAS WONDERING THINKING HE WAS GOING TO GET LIGHTER AND LIGHTER TO ALMOST WHITE WHEN HE WAS DONE GREYING OUT BUT HE IS 2 NOW AND IS THE SAME COLOR IF NOT DARKER NOW THEN BEFORE. THE CHOCOLATE IN HIS COAT ALWAYS THREW ME FOR A LOOP BUT OH WELL.
YEAH I REALLY DO WANT TO GET HIM TESTED. I BRED HIM THIS YEAR TO MY BAY MARE AND SHES DUE APRIL OF 2009. I'D REALLY LIKE TO KNOW WHAT I COULD POSSIBLY GET.
ONE MORE QUESTION. SO HE IS NOT GRAY BUT HE CAN HE THROW GRAYS WITH A BAY MARE. OR IS SILVER ITS OWN LITTLE COLOR.
JUST WONDERING. I CANT BELIEVE I THOUGHT ALL THIS TIME HE WAS A GRAY DAPPLE. LOL
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 318
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 08, 2008 - 09:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Susan he can not pass on grey if he does not carry it himself. Silver is a seperate gene. If you go to the link I posted above for you it explains about the silver gene.



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