MAIN PAGE
EQUINE REPRODUCTION ARTICLES
SHORT COURSES
OTHER SERVICES AVAILABLE FROM EQUINE-REPRODUCTION.COM
FROZEN SEMEN STALLIONS
CERTIFIED SEMEN FREEZING LOCATIONS
EQUINE REPRODUCTION SUPPLIES
EQUINE REPRODUCTION BOOKS
EQUINE REPRODUCTION LINKS
EQUINE REPRODUCTION E-MAIL LIST
EASILY CALCULATE THE CORRECT VOLUME OF SEMEN AND EXTENDER TO SHIP OR USE ON FARM!
EQUINE REPRODUCTION BULLETIN BOARD
SITE MAP OF EQUINE-REPRODUCTION.COM
CONTACT US

horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
Go to the articles page
 
Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board
 
Topics Page Topics Page Register for a new account Register Edit Profile Profile Log Out Log Out Help/Instructions Help    
New Posts New Posts Last 1|3|7 Days Search Search Tree View Tree View  
Posting is restricted to registered board members only to prevent spamming of the board. We regret the necessity of this action, but hope you will appreciate the importance of the integrity of the board. Registration is free and information provided during the process will not be submitted to third parties.

Baby color

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » Baby color « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Mary Ann
Weanling
Username: Newbie

Post Number: 45
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 02:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just seeing what everyone thinks about this color possibility. I keep reading posts and I'm still not really following all the genetic stuff.

I've got a Bay mare (she looks Buckskin to me, but is that possible out of 2 bay parents?). My mare had a bay sire and his sire was bay and his dam was dun.

On my mares dams side is a bay dam and her parents were a brown and a bay.

My mare has been bred to a gray stud who's parents were both gray. The grandparents on studs side were brown and gray and grandparents on dams side were black and gray.

Is this too much information? Does it matter once you get past the 1st or 2nd generation? From what I've read gray is dominant and there's a 50% chance this baby will be gray...is this right and what are other chances...bay?
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 235
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 03:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Because both of the studs parents were grey he could be homozygous grey. Do you know if he has had foals that didn't turn grey?
 

Sheila Armstrong
Neonate
Username: Sheila_armstrong

Post Number: 6
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 03:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mary Ann,

It is not possible to get a buckskin from two bay parents. A buckskin is a bay horse with a dilute gene, and the dilute gene is dominant so it would show. In other words, if a horse carries one dilute gene then the horse would either be palomino, buckskin or smokey black (if a horse carries two dilute genes, it would be either cremello, perlino or smokey cream). I hope that makes sense. Bottom line is if your mareís sire was truly a bay and not a really dark buckskin then your mare genetically cannot be a buckskin.

You are correct that grey is dominant, and if both of the stallion's parents are grey there is a 25% chance that he is homozygous for grey siring only grey offspring. Do you know if he has sired any foals that are not grey? If he has then he is heterozygous for grey, you are also correct and you have a 50% chance of getting a grey foal.

The one color you could get that would not be visible from the parents is a red based horse -- sorrel or chestnut. The black gene is dominant to the red gene so if you have a horse with one red gene and one black gene the black will show and the red will not. To confuse matters even more, there is another gene call the agouti gene, and it restricts black to the points (mane, tail, legs, etc.) when you have a black-based horse. So, if you have a horse with a black gene and an agouti gene then the horse will be bay (unless you add another dominant gene such as cream or grey).

To oversimplify matters, every horse has some combination of red and black genes. If you have a horse with two black genes, you have a black-based horse that can only have black-based offspring. If you have a horse with a black gene and a red gene, you have a black-based horse that can have either black or red offspring. If you have a horse with two red genes, you will have a red horse. When you add the agouti factor, a black horse will be bay, and a non-agouti horse will be black (Iím not sure how you get brown, hopefully someone else can help there). The agouti gene does not affect the appearance of red horses, it can only affect the appearance of their offspring assuming a red horse is bred to a horse with a black gene (if you breed two red horses you will have a red foal). When you add things like cream, dun, roan and grey, those dominant genes modify the colors to palomino, buckskin, dun, grullo, various varieties of roan, etc.

I apologize if I confused things even more for you, but Animal Genetics has some great information as well as a color calculator on their website at http://www.animalgenetics.us/Equine.htm.

Good luck,
Sheila
 

E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Ev_watkins

Post Number: 158
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 04:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mary Ann- it depends on what the base color of the stallion was. He could have been any color to begin with and could pass that along to your foal (and not pass the gray modifier) If you can find that out, it will help to determine what your colt could be. Good luck, equine color genetics fascinate me, I'm not totally up on them, but I'm learning.. and determined to do some "experimenting" :-) I've had some funny color crosses not come out as I expected. I bred two gray parents.. (not sure of the sire's base color but the mare was chestnut when I bought her) Thought for sure I'd get a gray since the stud threw primarily gray babies.. nope, she's coming three and bay as the day is long. Bred that same stud to grulla mare, color for sure, right??? uh uh.. I have a bay gelding (2 y/o now) with a dorsal stripe, shoulder barring and face masking and a tail that is more white or blonde than black. No white in him other than he's getting some white whiskers on his nose so I'm still hoping he'll go gray eventually.. again, with all those colors, you'd think SOMETHING would present itself other than the base BAY coloring and dun factor.
 

Marti Langley
Neonate
Username: Pair_o_dice

Post Number: 4
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 04:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Man, am I confused, LOL!! So what colors can you get when you breed two bays??
 

Sheila Armstrong
Neonate
Username: Sheila_armstrong

Post Number: 7
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 04:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Marti,

You could get bay, black or red depending upon the genetic makeup of the parents.

I have a bay mare that has two foals by a smokey cream roan (basically a blue roan with two dilute genes), her yearling is a palomino, and her 2007 foal is a palomino roan. My mare is homozygous for agouti (AA), which means I had a 75% chance of getting a buckskin foal each time and I got two palominos. Oh well. We are breeding her to a bay this year, if she has a chestnut foal I am going to wonder what color she really is.

Check out the coat color calculator at http://www.animalgenetics.us/CCalculator1.asp, it is pretty interesting.
 

Mary Ann
Weanling
Username: Newbie

Post Number: 46
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 04:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know about offspring but I will check to see if any turned out anything other than gray. I also wonder if either of mares parents could have been a buckskin but they thought they were bay?? I guess the only way to be sure is to do a dna test??

This is interesting but it's confusing at this point in the little that I know.

Thanks for all the input.
 

Sheila Armstrong
Neonate
Username: Sheila_armstrong

Post Number: 8
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 04:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yep. Animal genetics has a test for cream for $25. All you have to do is pull a few mane or tail hairs and mail them in with a form and payment and you can get your results online within about a week. I have never had a cream issue since my cream horses all clearly show their gene, but I have mine tested for black/red and agouti.
 

Mary Ann
Weanling
Username: Newbie

Post Number: 47
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 04:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

According to offspring records this gray stud has had a bay offspring (unless someone registered the baby before gray started coming through I guess).
 

E Watkins
Breeding Stock
Username: Ev_watkins

Post Number: 159
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 05:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mary Ann- and that makes it all the more confusing, often times horses are registered incorrectly and the paperwork not corrected. It makes it difficult for folks down the line to figure things out! Good luck! Ev
 

Emily West
Breeding Stock
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 194
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 07:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sheila,
I believe brown horses are either really dark bay horses or a black horse that isn't jet black. I could be wrong but I think that is what I read. So I guess the way to determine which one they really are ,( black or bay ),would be to test for the agouti gene.
 

Emily West
Breeding Stock
Username: Paintlover

Post Number: 195
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 07:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mary Ann,
It could be possible if they were registered wrong because I know that happens. Do you have any pictures you can share of your mare?
 

Marti Langley
Neonate
Username: Pair_o_dice

Post Number: 5
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 10:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My mare is a sorrel Paint and she is bred to a Palomino Mustang. I heard I have a 50/50 chance for Paint and a 50/50 chance for Palomino. Reno has little sorrel paw prints around her hooves, is that a sign that she is homozygous for the paint pattern??
 

Heather Kutyba
Breeding Stock
Username: Heatherck11

Post Number: 585
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Monday, June 04, 2007 - 11:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Genetically, a "brown" horse has a modifier to the agouti gene. Kinda has it's own genetic twist. It is represented as "At" on the agoutie allele.
Not a lot is known about it, but what is known, is that research has shown that it is, genetically speaking, a distinct color.

For instance, my mare is brown. Her dam was brown and her sire was black.
My mare has produced:
1 brown foal (sire is Bay, Homozygous EE)
1 bay foal (sire is bay, heterozygous Ee).

3rd foal is cooking (by an Bay EE stallion), so it will be VERY interesting to see what pops out!
 

Mary Ann
Weanling
Username: Newbie

Post Number: 48
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 09:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

She's actually a mare I was in the process of buying but this morning I checked my email and the owner has decided not to sell her . I don't know what happened I was going to pick her up tomorrow. Maybe she'll change her mind or it just wasn't meant to be.
 

Sheila Armstrong
Neonate
Username: Sheila_armstrong

Post Number: 9
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 10:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Marti,

If your mare is heterozygous for the tobiano gene you would have a 50% chance of tobiano and 50% chance of palomino. In other words, 25% palomino solid, 25% palomino tobiano, 25% sorrel solid, and 25% sorrel tobiano.

Many homozygous horses have "paw prints" on their bodies. If you are referring to dark spots around her coronet band I do not think those are considered paw prints but I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong. Also, some homozygous horses do not have paw prints. Do you know what color her parents are?
 

Marti Langley
Neonate
Username: Pair_o_dice

Post Number: 6
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 12:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

APHA was trying to help me, but the breeder was not good at sending in required paperwork!! I am not giving up, but if I can't get her papers that is okay. She is a super special athletic mare, and very beautiful. Looks like an Indian horse!!
 

Sheila Armstrong
Neonate
Username: Sheila_armstrong

Post Number: 10
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Tuesday, June 05, 2007 - 11:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Marti,

You could probably get pinto papers on her. The Pinto Horse Association accepts horses without proof of pedigree.

Good luck.
 

Marti Langley
Neonate
Username: Pair_o_dice

Post Number: 7
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Wednesday, June 06, 2007 - 01:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, I am thinking of registering her Pinto, and maybe the American Indian Horse Registry, too. I took bunches of pics of Reno to send to the registries, already. Thanks.



Please note that opinions, product information, advice or suggestions posted on this bulletin board are not necessarily those of the management at Equine-Reproduction.com nor does the maintenance of the post position indicate an implicit or any endorsement of that information, opinion or product.

Further, although we have the greatest respect for the posters offering assistance here, you are advised to seek a consultation with your veterinarian prior to using information obtained from this board if it is of a veterinary nature.

Proud to be sponsored and supported by:
IMV Technologies - makers of Equine AI Equipment
Equine A.I. Equipment Supplies
Universal Medical Systems Ultrasounds
For your Veterinary Ultrasounding Needs
Hamilton Research Inc - Home of the Equitainer
Hamilton Research Inc - Home of the Equitainer
Exodus Breeders Supply - Your one-stop shop for all your reproductive needs!
Exodus Breeders Supply
Har-Vet: An Industry Leader in Equine Veterinary Products
An Industry Leader in Equine Veterinary Products!
Reproduction Resources: Specializing in Artificial Breeding and Embryo Transfer Supplies
Specializing in Artificial Breeding and ET Supplies
BET Pharm: Your Compounding Pharmacy for Reproductive Needs!
Your Compounding Pharmacy for Reproductive Needs!
www.SemenTanks.com - Quality Tanks at Competitive Prices!
Quality Tanks at Competitive Prices!
J.L. Smith Co. - Safe, affordable breeding stocks!
Safe, affordable breeding stocks!
  International Veterinary Information Service
International Veterinary Information Service
 

MAIN PAGE | INFORMATIONAL ARTICLES | SHORTCOURSES | SERVICES
FROZEN STALLIONS | FREEZING LOCATIONS | SUPPLIES | BOOKS | LINKS
EQUINE REPRODUCTION E-MAIL LIST | SEMEN CALCULATOR | BULLETIN BOARD
SITEMAP | CONTACT US