Hi, I have a minimal Overo Broodmare that is LWO positive. I want to breed for the frame overo pattern, but dont want to risk having a leathal white foal. What would be the best combination to breed her with for the best posible chances of colour? Splashed white? Sabino? I have bred her to a solid stallion this year to see what she produces to solid, but i have heared that a splashed white or a sabino help break up the colour and increase the chances of a coloured foal. Does anyone know much about this?? Any info would really be appreciated.
I am not a expert on color pattern combos, but can tell you that the best way to produce a overo is to breed overo to overo, but your statement is that you don't want to risk the LW--then make sure you choose a stallion that has been tested for the lw gene-- which are very few tested, choose a stallion of a solid color-no white(they may hide the gene, even if you can't see it), or just don't breed paints at all. I also need to tell you to make sure that any stallion that you breed to should be tested then because the lw gene is found in almost any breed, not just paints. They are found in Quarter horse, TB, and Paints. I believe the appy breed also carries the LW gene --don't remember for sure. It is also true that the best way to produce color is the overo gene linked to the lw produces more spotted foals. It is a tricking game to play and your chances are actually slim to none to get a LW foal. It is also true that even a solid color horse can carry the LW gene --with that said that is how you come up with a crop out quarter horse too-- a double registered AQHA and APHA. Now again rules are changing inside the associations . From my own experience if breeding to a sabino(to a frame overo) I have a better chance of getting a sabinao pattern-- just my own experience. From what I have recentley read the sabino color pattern is less likely to carry a lw gene than any other color pattern. I have been breeding paints for about 20 years now and in my 20 years have only experienced 1 lethel white. Any big breeder that I have spoken to says to elimanate the LW gene will be almost impossible as it is carried in any bloodlines and if you were going to start to elimanate bloodlines you would loose you gene pool. It is not a gene that can hurt generations to come like the hypp gene inside the Impressive bloodlines. The HYPP gene can be passed on, the LW gene can be passed on , but once it shows up in a foal the foal will not survive. I hope that I have made it clear how the one negative gene in hypp can continue to hurt where the lw gene while it is a negative impact at the given time will not hurt future generations to come.
I know that many have different feelings about this but until the gene is more researched it is hard to elimante it . There has also been studies that have shown that the lw gene to hide in other genes. So alot more research needs to be done.
As an Appy breeder for 13 years, I can tell you that the LWO gene is definitely NOT found in Appaloosas! Any time you breed Overo to Overo, you run the risk of getting a lethal white 25% of the time. When breeding an Overo to a solid with no known Overo lines, you will get an Overo 50% of the time. The reason why KimK has only experienced 1 lethal white in her 20 years of breeding could be due to the fact that a lot of times when a lethal white is produced, it is reabsorbed early on in the pregnancy, which is found to be the case the biggest majority of the time.
I have never reabsorbed in a pregnancey. Our conception rate was 100 percent on first breeding Except in a top moon mare which she had problems with her own body and developing a folicle and maintaining it . The lethel white that I have experience was in a outside mare that was a solid bay breeding stock mare. ..... It is nice that people can tell you why others experience something only 1 time e when you don't even know our situation. As I stated our conception rate is 100 percent during first breeding cycle..... If you don't want to take the chance of getting a lethel white don't breed them.
I am sorry , like I said as far as the appy thing going I was uncertian about the lw gene, It is linked to roan horses and can be found when two roans are bred together.... I said I was uncertian about it.... gess, it give people something to think about, I never said it was for sure. Again like I said in this post --- the lethel white gene can be found while breeding roans.
Kim k the lethal link in roans is not lethal white. It is that roan in the homozygous form is lethal, This usually causes aboartion early in the pregnancy. There is some speculation though about the truth to this.
Thanks for the info KimK and Sandy. KimK; When you say you have bred paints and only one Leathal foal, are both the parents LWO+? I know that there is a 25% chance of getting a leathal white with this combination, but that is exceptional that you have only ever had one out of two LWO+ horses! I would be very happy with that track record. As i said, i am only just getting into overos, and i was curious to see if there was another way to get a realtively high colour rate without taking this risk. I am only a small farm, and i have four mares. If i were to take the risk, then on average, one out of my four foals each year would be leathal. I know its only an average, but its not very encouraging really. If i were to breed a mare with frame overo background, but tested LWO neg, to a LWO positive stallion, would this produce a decent percentage of colour do you think? I dont want to take the chance if i dont have to, if i can find a way of getting coloured foals from another combination, i will give it a go. Any input?? Thanks again...
When we got into paints there were not any tests at the given time to determine the lw gene. My past stallion was never tested , but when bred to a bay breeding stock mare they produced a lethel white foal. So it is to my understanding that both horses had to carry the gene to produce this. All other overos, and breeding stocks have never produced a lethel white. I have talked to our friends In Iowa, that have bred for 40 years or better and don't hesitate to breed the overo to overo and do not test for it as well as many other breeders because it is there. And their feelings are that they have seen at least one lw foal from almost every stallion out there. I feel our odds have been pretty good. The best chance to produce color from what I have read and been told is to breed the overo to overo and that is also your best chance of the lw gene, If both parents have the gene than you can get the lw foal, the gene is also in the QH and the TB horses. My old time friend use to swear by it and it has been more sceinticfically proven now, but that if I were interested in a QH mare for breeding to buy one with the most white acceptable and that would give me the best chance of getting color out of a QH mare. And now with the AQHA , they had frowned on the white for so long and most folks hid that extra spot of white so that the registration would go through without a problem... If the AQHA would have been more open about it , the knowledge of the gene and where it hides would be more known. I have read many articles about the gene hiding in places so to truely understand where it is , is very difficult. I don't consider myself a big breeder, we have bred local mares before, but the purpose of our stallion had been for our own use. I am running about 7 mares right now and still find our success rate to be very good. I can't honestly answer your question to the neg. mare and positive stallion as we don't test our horses and most people that we do business with don't test either, so enless, that misfortune happens with a lw foal , we don't know who is what. Many people have been taking many unknown chances in this area for years and come out ok, it hasn't been until recently that the test is available. Most that want to breed to a stallion of their choice will take that chance of it happening and going back for a rebreed. Your best chance I feel for a color foal is coming out of a sabino as they tend not to have the lw gene as often(providing it is truely a sabino) but you tend not to get the split color as often--- it is usually a more white horse than a nicely spotted horse. Actually the percentage of getting the lwfoal is really alot less. The other thing would be to bred overo to a tobiano . That would lessen your chances of getting a lw drastically. The tobiona should not carry a lw gene providing they do not have any overo cross in them. If the Toby has a overo line someplace they can carry the gene. You can get some pretty nice color patterns from this cross or you can get a horse close to a medicine hat (horse with alot of white but not much dark color). Don't stress yourself out about it. Give it a try and see what happens. AS I have said that the lw gene is being seen in all breed of these, and with the cross breeding of the paints, qh, and tb it is becoming harder and harder to determine how, who, and where the gene is hiding. You could always test everything and then your search begins . I would take the chance and if it were a cross and you got the lw more than once then i would move on. There has been a few studies and folks that i have heard that crossed the same stallion/mare and kept getting the lw.... that is time to move on, for some reason the gene is strong and kept showing up. Other pairs i have seen bred time and time again and maybe get one lw and then the next 10 babies are not....
That is my thoughts and others that I have spoken to. That is sortta like humans , most would have a baby without testing for genitic defects unless something shows up in a baby and then would reconsider doing it again. Only with horses we can control it and for this genitic problem it stops there at the baby and won't continue to be passed on as the foal will not survive. and we can put it out of its misfortune where as with humans we can't, we must make our offspring suffer with a genitic defect...
The gene is there, its the nature of the horses and just go with the flow... color sells and that is what most people are looking for in the paint breed or else they would be going to other breeds ! Others have tried to figure out how to get color in other ways, this is how it works... overo to overo !!!
Best of luck to you , theses are just my thoughts and would like to share more if you have more questions. kim
Kim, Thanks for the info. As i metioned earlier, i have bred my LWO+ mare to a solid stallion this year, so i will soon see what she produces to solid. If the resulting foal isnt coloured then i suppose i need to try my luck. I am looking at buying a stallion at the moment, he is minimal overo, two blue eyes, big blaze and one white stocking, he is by an extreme frame overo stallion (you can see his sire at http://www.arcadiaminis.co.nz/Rowdy%20Remark.htm ). He isnt tested for the LWO gene, but with his breeding and blue eyes and chin spots i think it is fairly safe to presume he carries it (correct me if im wrong). Do you know how well an LWO+ minimal would throw colour? Is it less likely to than a loud overo? Any experience in this?? Thanks again for all your help!
Let me know what you get with your breeding , would be interested to know. That stallion of the colt you are looking at is very nice looking -- cute too . I would have to say, taking a somewhat educated guess, that the colt you are considering would carry the gene as the eyes are are strong "Paint" gene. I have not experienced any difference with the minimals that would be considered regular registry. Actually I have bred to a breedstock overo mare and gotton color everytime too. From what I have been told too from other breeders and their experience is that it does not matter how much white a regular registry overo has , they have the gene needed --- it just shows up in different patterns. I love the paint breed , it is fun, waiting for the color pattern.
Heres a link to the picture of my future stallions sire. He is a awesome horse.
Kim, Well thats good to know. I have been considering another stallion aswell, that does show the frame pattern (not extensively) but he has a few patches, and i am a little turned off him because of his height (i breed minis so him being overheight is a big factor) and also out of 4 foals he has had one minimally marked overo, and the others werent coloured at all. So he doesnt seem to pass on much colour.. The minimal overo colt i had previously mentioned has some strong overo genes behind him, and should carry the gene.. (like you say, blue eyes, and chin spots) so if you think that he could throw colour just as easily as a louder coloured stallion, then that makes him even better! I really want to breed colourful babies, as gorgeous as this colt is, i would prefer him to throw loudly coloured foals than minimally coloured ones like himself. What do you mean by "it just shows up in different patterns". Are you refering to it being either minimal or loudly coloured? Also what is a "breedstock mare"? Sorry for the silly questions, just unsure.. I love that stallion!!!! He is awsome, and you have some gorgeous foals! So beautifully coloured.. both of them, i love medicine hats! And that bay and white one will be a stunner when he matures too... oh i cant wait to have some coloured babies!!!
Hi Renee, yes that is what i mean by the differnent patterns-- minimal or loud. A breedstock mare(or stallion, or gelding), just means that they have not enough white for regular registry in the Paint horse association.
What was the sire bred to not to pass much color on to ? were they colored ? and if so what pattern were the mares?
No question is silly as far as i am concerened expcept for the unasked ones!
Thank you for the nice comment on my foals. They are both out of our stallion of 14 years that is in a better place now. It was great to get two fillys out of him to add to our breeding program. The picture of that black and white is the daddy of my new stallion prospect. The colt that I bought looks just like him only a nice deep chestnut color--- the patterns of sire and colt are almost the exact same. We are very excited to see our breeding program grow , it was sad to loose our friend but we have a great new direction. The one that appears to be bay color I doubt she will be ?? will have to talk to the association about it , as she has no black on her... I wish she was bay , but i think they will say chestnut-- maybe i should have her tested , that seems to be the thing to do ! LOL
sometimes , i just think not knowing what you will get is the fun of it-- just like human babys -- I never wanted to know the sex of my kids took all the fun out of it !
Kim K. I didn't mean any disrespect when I said that you could have had foals absorbed. It's just that what I have read about LWO indicates that the biggest majority of the time a LW will be absorbed rather than go full term. Which I personally think are the lucky ones. Yes, you are lucky that you've only produced 1 LW, and you are lucky in the fact that it was to an outside mare rather than your own. For anyone who is in the game of breeding 2 overos together to try for that elusive frame, I think it would be extremely heartbreaking to have to wait almost a year for a baby, have it born a beautiful, healthy foal, only for it to literally start dying before your eyes and have to put it down at a few hours old. You have to ask the question: Is it really worth it?
HI Sandy, Thanks for replying , I am aware that many are "absorbed" than delivered live--I think that is why many will take the chance. That is natures way of guarding itself, in all aspects of life, including humans. They say that is why a miscarriage takes place in humans too. As far as being lucky that it was a outside mare... Not so lucky for me -- I would have rather it been mine than an outside breeding-- but for people that take the chance its part of the breeding thing-- The lady did take her rebred that year and a beautiful solid colt was produced and the lady was happy with a breed stock and still owns him today. She got what she really wanted a that was the conformation and temperment of my paint stallion--- a loud colored foal would have just been iceing on the cake ... It is also not just breeding two overos together to get this lw gene to show up, it can happen when breeding others too.... The gene can show up in QH, and TB too. The gene does not just belong to the Paint breed.
It is heart breaking to see this happening, but it is also heart breaking to see many things happen in life, there are many genitic defects that can happen, most the time we just don't see them to the full extent. There are many things that happen inside many different breeds of animals as well as humans. At least with animals there can be a end . What makes me mad is when there are humans reproducing when they have a known genitic defect and are willing to take the chance and then take care of this child who leads more than a less productive life. I feel sad for those kids --- To be picked on and made fun of and have to have someone wipe their bottoms for the rest of thier lives. We can make a judgement call and make choices for animals that we can't for humans. I guess it is really true in the animal kingdom -- the strongest will survive. We can be kind to our animal friends
Kim K. I couldn't agree with you more on the human aspect of "breeding" knowing you can have a genetically defective child. And yes, it can be stopped in the animal world, but there are so many folks out there who will continue to breed defective animals hoping they will get that percentage that won't be defective. As for LW showing up in other breeds, yes it can come from a QH, but that QH must have Paint breeding in its lines somewhere. As for TB's, they have been known to carry the sabino gene, but if they are a pure TB, there should never be a chance for a LW as the Jockey Club does not allow outcrossing. I think as long as you breed an overo to another Paint that does not have any overos in its line, you're safe. Also if you breed an overo to a QH with no Paint horses in its pedigree, you're safe. And as far as to a TB, I'd love to see what info you have found that says a Jockey Club registered TB has given birth to a LW. I do know there have been rare all white TB's born, but they are not lethal whites. So, it would be interesting to see the info on that.
Paints came from the Quarter horse lines--this is the original qh registry--then merged to become AQHA. It is funny because it was Not qh coming from paints. and for the tb the gene naturally comes in there too. The AQHA will continue to breed to the TB as long as a x bred qh meets the qualifications . As far as the jc saying a tb has given birth to a lw ---- I never said. What i did say is that the tb can have the lw gene. Most lw are not reported to the associations as they are unregisterable. I have never gotton any information from apha requiring to report the birth of a lw. I have seen information from the tb associaition that the will register a spotted tb in the association(tb to tb) and what i have seen pictures of are frame overos-- not sabinos. I will have to try to dig for those pics and information but I know i read it. gotta run-running late for church--
Here is a excellent example of a Registered Paint from All Quarter horse Bloodlines..... This is a leading sire inside the paint horse association The two original Paint associations, American Paint Stock Horse Association (APSHA) and American Paint Quarter Horse Association (APQHA) combined in 1965 to form the current association, the American Paint Horse Association. Since then only registered APHA, AQHA or TB blood has been allowed for a horse to qualify for APHA registration.
A look at the pedigrees of the original Paints showed mostly Foundation Quarter Horse breeding. Some of the top Paint sires of all time were simply "cropouts" whose sire and dam were usually AQHA registered. A case in point is the well known Paint stallion, Painted Robin, APHA #800, a 100% Foundation Quarter Horse Paint stallion. See his pedigree below . . .
Painted Robin 1960 s overo apha # 800
sire and dam are Robin Boy 1955 Aqha
Midwest Snuffy 1950 Aqha mare
out of Robin reed aqha 28978 miss lady Bud aqha 20641 out of Leo, see reed , H-mexico dick, beggar gal
the dams side of Midwest snuffy again 1950 aqha mare out of Candy aqha 00671 and blue eyes billie aqha 21994 then bind bob and fleet and blue eyes and red speed.....
Sorry I tried copying and pasting but it would not work on the pedigree....
So you see that the paint breed came from the Quarter horse .... There were more to see but this is the big one that i kept info on as Painted robin is a major player in my bloodlines here on our farm
I will try to get more when i have time, kids are late for bed
this is a direct quote from the uc davis site "Paint horse breeders love to see those colorful splashes of white on their foals; it's what helps define the Paint horse breed. But an all white foal is every Paint horse breeder's fear. Lethal White Overo Syndrome or Congenital Intestinal Aganglionosis is a disease that occurs in horses with white coat spotting patterns. Horses with this disease are all white and die shortly after birth due to intestinal abnormalities (similar to Hirschsprung Disease in humans). Surgical intervention has not proved successful; therefore, this condition is lethal in all cases.
There are three main spotted coat patterns in horses: overo, tobiano, and tovero. The lethal white disease is most often associated with the overo spotting pattern in horses, but it can occur in tobianos and toveros as well. Some overos, but not all, are carriers of the lethal white gene. Overos have white patches that come from under the belly and usually do not cross the top line. Their faces typically have white markings that extend beyond the eyes. Tobianos have white patches that typically cross the top line. Their legs tend to be white and their heads are usually solid colored with normal face markings. Toveros have characteristics of both color patterns. The lethal whites come from crossing two spotted horses that are both carriers of the lethal white gene. Occasionally, solid colored horses (considered breeding stock for colored patterns) without obvious spotting patterns have produced lethal whites"
Kim- The AQHA did not become an association until 1940. Many of the horses designated "Quarter Horse" before then, were open to debate. That is precisely why the association was started. They wanted to form an ideal of what the Quarter Horse should represent. Any Pinto colored horses were not considered desirable even if they displayed the body type. Obviously, not all solid horses were void of the color gene, but,the cropouts were discouraged. 65 years later, they have arrived at an ideal and color acceptance level. A solid colored Quarter Horse is such, solid.
To have a Lethal white, one of the solid parents must have a paint in their pedigree ( that is why they can be registered as breeding stock )as Cathy pointed out.
Painted Robin goes back to "Blue Eyes" ( eyes,not eye )which is unregistered. ( doesn't the blue eyes part give you pause?)There were more than a few unknowns in Painted Robins pedigree, so who really knows. I wouldn't really say that he was from an all Quarter Horse backgroud with so many unknowns.
ok, this is what I have found out through the apha site. That is is possible for a all white hores to survive-- there is documented proof of a all white horse that survivied only the horse has like three differnt genitice patterns so the white stamped out everything else. It is likley that the all white horse carries the lw gene, just as it is true for the TB horse too. That is why when a tb is bred to a tb it can produce a spotted horse. Although it is seen a lot less in the TB , but also from information on the uc davis site, the apha site all the patterns of horses can produce and carry the lw gene. The solid qh, the solid paint, the solid tb, the spotted overo, sabino, tovero and toby horse. So as to my previous statment about having all horses tested is the best way to prevent any lw from being produced from a cross to. There are some unlikelys to happen when breeding certian horse color patterns together but there are no guarentees about it --- you are still taking chances on it as the lw gene can be present.
But you see, the associaitions started someplace, all horses came from a unregistered group and the gene is present in the qh... I think the qh has gone back to accepting too much whites again... They can't seem to make up their minds--instead of making those be considered crop outs and going to the apha .
There was the original Quarter horse registry that formed first then they merged another group in which they formed the AQHA in 1940
Oh, its funny (yet very sad) going back to aqha with thier new ruling , they wil register a foal (and go back and help you get the info needed on a older "crop-out" to get the horse registered in the AQHA but it will carry a statement that this horse has undesirable traits.... They were better off being registered in the Paints. A undesirable trait is no better than any other thing that they don't want. One testicle, hypp... etc so why bother doing it, as it is very clear that the overo gene can be passed on. They need to make up their minds
Hi I am new to all this and know nothing about Pintos/Paints in color. Is this LW the same Lethal White factor that you get when you breed Palamino to Palamino, where the foal is allergic to the mare's milk and dies? Isn't this like the RH- factor? Also if two parents are black would that make the foal homozygous blk?? Thanks for this wonderful site. I have two Appaloosas, a 19 year old ch/blanket gelding and a 6 year old mare red dun/roan/starting leopard spotting.( her sire is a W/few spot and her dam is a red roan App. There is no white shadowing around her eyes. Am wondering if she will completely leopard out.
HI Sandra, No it is nothing like the foal being allergic to the mares milk-- nothing like the rh factor. It is when a foal gets a lethel gene from mare/one from sire that creates a colon that is incomplete and can not function, will not survive--will start to show signs of colic within 12-24 hours after foaling. Can sometimes pass the mecomim(spelling is wrong i know) , but will not be able to pass any feces.
I believe that is true with the black gene, but there are others better suited to discuss possibility of different color genitics, I don't totally keep up on the actual "color"thing, we get what we get !!There is another lady here that i believe breeds appys that may be able to help you about your SPOTS !!
Glad to have another new comer. I try to learn something every day -- someday it may help me Have a great day
I think that the obvious pinto coloring is what the AQHA wanted to discourage. To say that an excessive white crop out generations later, should not be a QH is not conducive to either the AQHA or the APHA.
After all, color is the point of the Paint horse and there are more QH bloodlines than not that do not produce an unwanted paint pattern.
There are many QH bloodlines that can be traced back to 1600.There is a distinct difference between "unregistered" and "unknown". When you trace back in a pedigree, it becomes more apparent wheather there is more likely to be a color gene. Conversely, a solid as well.
Like Kim said, unlikely things can happen, but they are just that, unlikely. Nothing in our world is a certainty.
Hi Sandra, It sounds like your mare might indeed roan out and keep her leopard spots. What I have learned by breeding Appys for 13 years, is that you can practically have a different color horse every year with the same horse. I have a 13 year old mare who was born a chestnut snowcap, by the time she was 3 years old she was a red roan with snowcap blanket. Now at the age of 13, she looks like a fewspot, she is completely white with just a few chestnut spots on her body and her ears have stayed chestnut. With your mare's sire being a fewspot, I find it rather strange that she wasn't born with more color. But she definitely could have the dark leopard spots in her base coat, but there wasn't any white along with it to show the spots, but now that the roan gene from her dam is taking over, it will lighten her base coat and reveal the dark spots given to her by her sire. As for the question of two black parents producing a homozygous black, it depends on the parents' genetic makeup. There are black horses who do carry the red gene. So, if one of the black parents actually has one black gene and one red gene, it easily could have passed its red gene to the foal, but if the other black parent passed a black gene, then the foal will look black and carry both genes. You never really know if a horse is homozygous black unless you have it tested. Or if it produces enough offspring and none are ever chestnut when bred to a chestnut, then that's a pretty good indicator too. On the palomino bred to palomino, that will never produce a lethal white. What you get from that combination is a cremello, you're just getting a double dose of the cream dilution gene, which is not harmful. And incidentally, a cremello is the best color to have for producing palominos and buckskins! When you breed a cremello to a chestnut, it will produce palomino 100% of the time. And when cremello is bred to bay, it will produce buckskin 100% of the time.
Kim, Wow! Lots of chatting has gone on in the last few days! I had lots of posts to catch up on... The dam of that colt was silver dapple. She wasnt coloured at all, so thats why he was only minimal. I was suppose to go see him yesterday, but i found a gorgeous little Medicine hat colt, which was the product of a Medicine hat Sabino, and a Frame Overo. He is gorgeous. And i have decided to buy him instead on the basis of a bit of research that i did on the weekend; I was reading up on which pattern overo is more likely to pass colour, and my Sponenberg book "Equine Colour Genetics", tells me that a stallion with more than one colour pattern is more likely to throw coloured foals, it went like this; 1 pattern- 50% coloured foals 2 patterns- 75% coloured foals 3 patterns- 82.5% coloured foals 4 patterns- 93.75% coloured foals (by pattern i mean, sabino, frame, splashed or toby)
And also, he did some experiments, and found that those that carry Sabino, the more white they have, the louder the colour they will throw.
SO.. I think i may have found a way to breed a fairly good percentage of resonably loud colour without the risk of a leathal white foal!!! We'll soon see if it works, but i think its a pretty good theory. The breeder of this colt has a stallion that is very similar, a sabino/overo medicine hat, and he breeds him to plain black mares with no markings at all and gets loud colours nearly every time! So this theory that Sponenberg has come up with has been put into practice, and he swears by it!! This colt is rising 2 years old, and has decended both testes, so hopefully i will be able to breed him to a couple of mares this coming season and see what he can produce!! That is sad to hear about your stallion, i have also just lost my 2year old stallion prospect, and although i didnt have him for nearly as long as you, i know what its like to lose them.. very sad. Well your new stallion i am sure will be a real stunner!! I love the look of his sire, and if he is really similar, then you got yourself a gorgeous looking boy to breed with!! Anyway, i better do some work...
some interesting informaton Renee. Yes, it is true that a stallion with more than one pattern is more likely to more color, that is why I also suggested breeding a overo to a toby--- you have then in alott of cases a resulting foal a tovero. I have read alot as well that a more loud sabino is more likely to throw a louder foal , but from my personal experiences that is not the case. I have a mare that would be conidered in the medium range for a sabino pattern and her foals have all been max. , almost white babies... Go figue . Anyways glad to hear that you found what you were looking for. It is fun breeding paints. We love them, they aree always different , never the same. Gotta run, kids need to get to bed, summer vacation is just around the corner !! Yeah , can't wait.
Dear all here, briefly reading these posts it seems some people may be confused about the lwo gene.
Any color pattern horse can carry the lwo gene including breeding stocks and tobiano's. So Renee your best bet is to breed to a TESTED NEGATIVE LWO STALLION. they are out there i personally own one, he is a splash overo. But dont just assume you will be lucky and not get a lw foal, you have a 25% chance of producing an lw foal IF you breed to a posotive stallion. The test only cost $25 at http://www.petdnaservicesaz.com/Equine.html So I think it would be worth your while to pay for the test if the stallion owner will not. Don't risk it, it is heart wrenching and is unfair for the resulting foal.
As for double registered apha/aqha, I believe aqha is allowing these "cropout" horses to be registered qh because apha will not allow any horse to be registered with their association unless they have at least 1 registered paint parent. So I personally believe that they should allow it, it is part of the qh breed, how does anybody think we got paint horses to begin with??
Nogotta Ranch Home of Barlink Cutabove apha/aqha son of barlink macho man
i breed overo/pinto miniature horses and have been lucky enough to become friends with a woman that has breed them for over 20 years.
In answer to the first question the best way to get color from breeding an lw positive is to breed it to a tobiano/sabino (horse carrying both genes). this will give you the most color without worrying about producing a lethal white foal.
This is just my opinion but I will never breed LW positive to LW positive and take the chance of breeding a foal that wont live. Just not worth it. I have seen a lethal white foal and what they go thru is not pretty. Keep in mind that a maximum expression overo is also all white so most breeders do not immediately euthanise an all white foal because it could be a maximum expression. I have a max expression on my web site for anyone that has never seen one. He is our show gelding White Chief.
One thing i do know for sure is you cannot determine if a horse is LW just by how it looks. Other patterns can hide lethal white especially on a tobiano.
Thanks so much! They dont eat nearly as much or make as much manure as the big guys but we still have a ton of fun. But i wll always be a big horse admirer! I went to a paint show a couple weeks ago and I had forgotten just how big the big horses are *laughs*
I have seen minmal frames that i would have never guessed in a million years was carrying LW so yes the best thing to do is test!
I dont know if he has been tested. So far all of his foals have been healthy when they were born. I think this will be his 8th foal on the ground once it is born. If his other foals haven't turned up with the gene do you think my foal will? Thanks for the help!
It can happen even if all other foals are healthy. Is your mare tested ?? if your mare is neg for the gene, then it won't happen. It takes two positives to make a lw foal, and the chances are slim.... I had a paint stallion of 14 years and only one lw baby and that was to a solid breeding stock paint mare. Never would have guessed that she carried the gene, but its there, test all color patterns, qh and tbs to be sure if its a issue to you.
Hi Kay, You certainly do have some little beauties! I really love LTD's Moonlight Bay, also Havenbrooks Encores Hot Tamale has a stunning head!! Hes lovely! I too breed minis and i am just getting into the pinto side of it. I ended up buying an extreme Sabino/Overo Medicine Hat colt to be my head sire. He is all white (he lost his medicine hat as he got older) with just a few bay spots in his ears. I am really happy with him. I have a tobiano mare to breed him to, and i have just sent away a DNA sample to UC Davis to test for LWO to decide what coloured other mares i will buy for him. If he is neg, then i already have a lwo+ mare that he will go over, and i will buy a couple more. If he is positive then i have a couple of solid mares that hopefully i will get some colour from. You can see him on my website www.freewebs.com/anyssapark if you are interested. Its so exciting knowing that your expecting a foal, but not knowing what colour it will be makes it so much better again!!
So nice to meet you! Thanks so much for the compliments. I will be getting some new pics up next week as Moonlight is 2 now and no longer a baby!! this year is Tamales first foal crop and we are so excited as every one of his foals has that beautiful bond head. As you know one of the hardest things on minis is to get a nice small head. Hes also downsizing all the mares which is really good because i like to breed leggier mares.
I suspect your guy is a maximum expression overo meaning he carries all the genes (sabino,frame, splash) Im glad your having him tested as I suspect you wont be able to breed him to that overo mare.
I really like miss print too. Bay pinto is my all time fav color. Must be why i have so many laughs.
Kay, Oh really? Ill have to have a look at the updated pics when you post them! Yes i know how hard a small head can be. Thankfully my new little colt has a lovely tiny head, so hopefully that will be passed on. I am anxious to see if he is lwo positive. I think he will be, but we can only wait and see! Then i can go about shopping for some mares for him. I dont want to do anything until i know what to look for though!
Posted From: 18.104.22.168
Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 10:01 pm:
Hi, I am new to all this and I hope someone can give me some insight. We have aquired a framed overo stallion that has some sabino markings as well. He is bred out of this world and has produced many APHA point earners. We purchased him to cross on our quarter horse mares and mares by our other Paint stallion(tobiano). As far as we can research, he has had 118 foals with 85% color on QH mares. We have not had to worry about OLW and are testing the new horse now, but we have recently found out he may have had 1 lethal white. We are not planning to breed him publicly. My question is...bred to toby's and quarter horses, do we lessen our chances of a LW baby or is it just russian roullette?
Yes, you lessen the chance of a lethel just a bit, but there are still chances your taking. You have to have two leathal genes, one from both parents, they are most commonly found in frame overos, but you need to be careful--there is some thought that the gene can hide and if you don't research the toby breeding or the qh breeding the gene may hide and you can't see it in the pattern of the horse. You do not need to see overo color patern to get a overo color patern. Hopes that make sense. For example-- My friend had a breeding stock overo mare (meaning that she was solid but out of overo parents)and was bred to a overo stallion and had a lw baby. The gene is there and they are advising if you want to know about the overo you breed to then test everything as it can pop up, it can hide in a toby pattern horse and you not know it, it can hide in a solid horse and you not know it. If your going to test one test all.
Hello, We breed our tobiano mare to a breeding stock solid bay paint for 2006. My question is can this stud carry the lethal white gene. The studs sire was overo the dam was solid palomino. My mare dam we tobiano and the sire was tobiano, but futher down the bloodlines is a few overo. My mare has been breed to all tobiano until this year. She has had all tobiano so far. I put the DNA question on this same site with the studs markers or DNA results. Could someone read them for me? Let me know what you all think. I can't change it now, but was wanting to know what I was up against for April 2006 when the foal is due. You can see a picture of my mare www.photobucket.com/albums/e329/MBhorses I am wanting to know more about this lethal white gene stuff. I am thinking of breeding this same mare to a overo stud this year after she foals. I am wanting to get a tovero next time. THANK YOU MELISSA
I hope and prayer we don't get a lethal baby. If I would have know this I wouldn't breed to him. I didn't know that solid breeding stock paint could carry this gene. My children would be heart broken if that happen. We lost a filly last year to cancer. The stud have very little white on him. The stud was bay with blaze face and little white on the legs. The studs sire was black and white overo and the dam was palomino. How far back do you look for the overo in my mare bloodlines?I looked up my mares bloodlines again.Their is only one overo listed. The only overo listed was the dam sire's (sire)I guess that would be the dam grandfather right. All the others where tobiano and quarters. The grandfather was breed toa tobiano and produce my mare sire which was tobiano.The stud sire was overo and the sire's father was overo and the grandfather was overo. The stud's father's mother was a overo and the grandmother was overo.What I am saiding is the stud had overo and tobiano only on the stud's sire side only. The studs dam was quarter only.Tell me what you think
solid qh can carry the gene, that is how you get your crop out paints, two solid colored qh produces a paint.... that is why if you are really concerend about it all should be tested. You toby mare can carry the gene to especially seeing she has overo breeding in her. The gene is being found in many lines of horses, it does not need to be seen to carry the gene the gene hides. If you test on test all. I have bred paints for over twenty yrs and only gotten one lw... some genes seem to produce more than others.
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 10:58 am:
Kim, I can't test the stud we no longer have him. We sold him this summer and the gentleman sold him to a lady who gelded him. I could test my mare, but by the time the test results come in she will have foaled. My mares father's father was the only overo in her bloodlines. The mare father's father was overo and mare mother's mother was tobiano produce my mare father which was tobiano.This genetic stuff is so hard to understand. What I am saiding is my mare's father father's was the only overo in mare bloodlines. I hope and pray for a healthy foal.This stud has no other foals listed with the APHA,because he was in training he was only 5 yrs at the time we breed him. The previous owner told us she had not breed him, but the other owner did to non register horses.My mare is due in April I will let you all know.To have the lethel gene is it always born white the ones who don't survice.To those who are members of the APHA look up my mare and the stud bloodlines with APHA. The stud's name is Skip Bo Tazz The mare's name is Annie Chelsie Moon Let me know what you all think!!! THANKS MELISSA
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 02:15 pm:
Hello, I email the previous owner aboutt SKip bo tazz this morning. She said she is not award of him having the lethal white gene. She said her non register mare had a colt by him a few weeks ago. The colt looks like the line back dun mare will his blaze face and sockings. I fell a little better about it now.We want know until the foal is born. My mare is the first paint he has been breed to.The others breed him to non register horses solid colors. We are going to think postive. TAKE CARE, MELISSA
Hello Everyone, We breed Paints. I've have 3 broodmares. One Quarter Horse mare (negative for OWLs) and two paint mares that are positive for OWLs. I actually prefer a stallion that is positive for OWLS when breeding my Quarter mare. If those folks that have mares that do carry the LW gene want to breed with the assurance of not getting a LW foal, there are choices. A reputable stallion owner will test their stallion and advertise the results. One stallion I've used on a minimal buckskin mare (positive for OLWs) is http://www.paintedfeatherfarms.com/hitter.asp check him out. The resulting foal was a very nice Tovero filly. The homozygous stallions are getting better and better. This stallion on the website I mention is homozygous for the tobiano pattern. A lethal white is a homozygous overo....the reason you never see one is because they die. When breeding horses, its always a gamble.....I think you have to do your homework, and decide what you are willing gamble on....breed the best you can to the best you can and hope for the best.
I personally know of 2 "big time" breeders that stood both paint and quarter stallions 30 years ago "prior to dna testing". If their foals were solid, they registered them quarter horse, if they were colored, they registered them paint. Deffinitely unethical, but non the less....occured. Can't happen today....but might explain at least "part" of the crop-outs of today.
My quarter mare is N/H for Hypp. I would never consider breeding her to an N/H stallion. She is 13 years old...non symptomatic. I have all the necessary meds on hand if she should ever have a problem.....but as it is...she is treated the same as the rest...not a single problem. Again its a choice and should be (my opinion). She is truly beautiful and the sweetest mare. What a shame if she was "never allowed to be born" and had not given us the joy she has. She's never had a problem foaling....just plain "trouble free" and very fertile. There is so much more information available for hypp n/h horses now.....unfortuately a lot of the "gossip" is unfounded and incorrect. Again just my opinion, but I give it from experience (getting long in the tooth myself :o) I love this website and enjoy it.
I have spoke to one of the directors to APHA last month. In conversation was the information on lw gene present in the horse. It is a characteristic that many "big" breeders are looking for. There is some evidence in the offspring that the gene produces more that just white. It is being looked into by many, better muscleing of the horse is one of the biggest issues. So is it related ?? Many of the breeders are looking for the overo/overo to mate with the positive of the lw gene. There will never be the elimination of the gene , it is needed to produce the colored paint. The association will not do anything about this at this point in time. It is not a gene that can not pass a genitic disease that will influnce the owner to be of the horse as does the hypp gene. The breeder is the one that has to deal with the radification of the lethel white baby, not a prospective buyer. Also in speaking to the one board of directors , it appears that the hypp issue should be on the agenda for the Spring meeting. It appears that the association will take way and will end up with testing on hypp paint bred with the impressive line. I feel that this is a positive step in protecting a prespective buyer with a value of information. This gene is something that needs to be taken control of. It sounds as if they will end up following the AQHA in how it handles the results of tested animals. No breeding of h/h and soon limitations on the n/h horses as well. It sounds as if there will be limitations as well on the showing of n/h and h/h horses.... just talk at this time. I don't have a problem with the showing of the horses as long as they show that they are healthy animals on no medication. I think that this is only acceptable as there are too many people that will show and breed a sick animal and pushing them to the limits. Right now the ruling is acceptalbe to the board of directors , the APHA is just going around with the lawyers about it. I also believe that "we" have created this gentic line through "our" breeding programs and I believe that "we" should support those that have these animals to care for as they age and need treatment.
I too own a Cossa Bred colt which goes back to impressive. I love his temperment , disposition and attitude about life. He is a loud chestnut overo fellow with some sabino genes in him as well and we are very excited about future offspring, But I could not do any research on his Paint breeding with APHA as the currently do not test for the hypp, I had to go back and find info on the current owners and search for results for those who had their animals tested, whereas AQHA has most results on hand for these animals. The stallion that he was out of was n/n and the owner did have that information. Besides having him tested ourselves. Life is a risk and if you don't risk it then you will never gain it either.
The crop outs come from far far ago. Clear back to before registries were formed. a 1950 AQHA mare and a 1955 AQHA stallion both 100 % foundation quater horse that produced a loud overo 100% foundation APHA Stallion "Painted Robin" ... It can and has happened. If you want to test for the lw gene , test all.
ok, I guess I am getting long too. Its a great breed , Gotta love those paints.
Kim, I got my mare's Annie's test results back about the LWO gene, she does not carry it .I am so thankful she does not have the lwo gene.thank God. I also found out she is homozygous for the tobiano gene,so I should get a color foal this year. I can't wait until april. thanks melissa
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 03:42 pm:
Hello...I am new here, but have been reading this thread with great interest, as I have been breeding Miniature Horses since 1989, and specialize in Frame Overos & Toveros.
The ORIGINAL question was how to breed for FRAME Overos without risk of a LW foal.
People are confusing the 3 Overos patterns here and lumping them into one. If you want to breed for the distinctive FRAME pattern....you could breed to a solid (resulting in either a solid or a Frame) or you could breed to another pinto patterned horse EXCEPT one that carries the LWO gene! A LWO (Frame) mare could safely be bred to ANY other Overo pattern, as long as that horse didn't ALSO carry the Frame pattern. This is where it gets tricky, as many Miniature horses carry several different pinto patterns...which can obliterate the actual FRAME pattern. So, the only way to tell if a horse is carrying LWO is to test!
I agree with Kay...I would never breed a known LWO carrier to another known LWO carrier. Some say that it increases the odds of producing a Frame baby....but that is a misconception. And even if it were true, I would never take that risk. I have had much success in producing beautiful Frame Overo & Tovero babies without breeding LWO to LWO.
I'm new to this site to. We've been breeding and raising paints since 1990. We've experienced lethat white foals in the 90's through friends horses. It is not fun. After reading many posts on this topic I noticed there is a lot of misinformation about lethal white overo syndrome. If both parents have tested negative for LWO then the foal will be negative. If one parent is positive and one is negative, the foal has a 50% chance of carrying the LWO syndrome, but will not be born lethal. If both parents carry the lethal gene, there is a 25% chance the foal will be born lethal and a 25% chance that the foal will not be a carrier of LWO.
Color pattern does not have a significant impact on whether a horse carries the lethal gene. I know of completely solid AQHA, APHA, and TB horses that have been tested positive for LWO. I also know of framed, splashed white, and toveros to be negative for LWO. According to MSU the sabino pattern is the least likely to test positive for the LWO syndrome. However their classification of sabino is different than APHA's definition of Sabino.
My mare's full sibling was a lethal white, I haven't had her tested, but I'm pretty sure she carries the gene herself. So when I bred her I made sure she was crossed on a LWO negative stallion. I also have a splash white overo mare that is LWO positive. However, I have a splash white filly on the ground that is negative out of my breeding stock mare by a APHA/AQHA registered spash white stallion.
The whole thing about blue eyes being a sign of carrying the LWO syndrome is a myth. In fact one advantage of having a LWO carrier is that you have an 85% chance of getting color. How that color pattern results is a whole new matter in itself.
Please note that opinions, product information, advice or suggestions posted on this bulletin board are not necessarily those of the management at Equine-Reproduction.com nor does the maintenance of the post position indicate an implicit or any endorsement of that information, opinion or product.
Further, although we have the greatest respect for the posters offering assistance here, you are advised to seek a consultation with your veterinarian prior to using information obtained from this board if it is of a veterinary nature.Proud to be sponsored and supported by: