Hi, I have a gorgeous little mini mare that is a black tobiano, her dam was black tobiano, and her sire was black. I also have just bought a lovely buckskin colt, which i am going to keep complete as my stallion- he is out of a bay, by a cremello. What colour do you think i will get?? I really would love a Paly Pinto, i know that Buckskin is dilute bay, and paly is dilute chestnut, but what is a dilute black, and with the colt obviously having the black gene, what colour do you think i may get?? Will he dilute her at all??
Anonymous Posted From: 66.71.199.146
Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 08:55 pm:
It depends on if your mare is homozygous black, or if she has a red gene. UC davis and The U of Kentucky do red factor test that will tell you. Same with the stallion, it depends which gene he passes. Palomino is possible, depending on the genetic make-up but you need a little more info.
horselady Posted From: 67.71.153.246
Posted on Monday, February 07, 2005 - 09:26 pm:
I just had my bay mare tested at UC Davis. Its fast ! Cost $50 for the test and they test for red and black factor, and in my case tested for homozygous bay. Go to their website and you can get all the information you need. I had my test results by email 15 days after I sent the package from my home in Ontario Canada.
Renee Posted From: 203.34.9.250
Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 05:47 pm:
I am in New South Wales Australia, so i will probably have to find someone around here that can do that wont i?? So if she is homzygous, what does that mean?? That she will only produce black??? Thanks
horselady Posted From: 67.71.153.246
Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 06:19 pm:
My bay mare is homozygous for bay, which means that she will always have a bay or a chestnut no matter if I breed her to a homozygous black, or a heterozygous black, or a chestnut, or a brown etc etc. The only way I could get another color other than Bay or Chestnut would be to breed to a horse with a creme gene (Such as Buckskin) or a double dilute horse (Such as a cremello or perlino _ and hope that he throws his creme gene (which they do 50% of the time more or less for buckskin and 100% of the time for perlino or cremello). That way I would get a buckskin or palomino foal instead of a bay.
Homozygous for Bay means that the Agouti gene she has is dominant and the gene will limit the black on any foal she has to only its points. A bay of course, is a black horse but the black is limited to its ears, mane, tail and spots on its hooves which turns it into a Bay instead of a black.
My Bay horse has a black gene and a red gene Ee and is homozgygous agouti AA SO her genetic make up is EeAA. Her father was a buckskin, her mother was also a bay.
Homozygous for Bay means that she will NEVER have a black foal.
The agouti gene will be passed to all of her offspring limiting any black to its points. She could have a buckskin or a bay, or even a chestnut from any breeding, though if she was to produce a chestnut the agouti would be invisible as a chestnut horse has no black to limit.
As the anonymous poster said.. it depends on whether your horse is homozygous black.. Her sire was black, but could have been Heterozygous black Ee, not homozygous black EE, same for the dam. You got a black foal from this crossing as one of the parents threw a black E, or possibly both. Black is dominant over red, so you ended up with a black foal. Your horse could be EE homozygous or Ee heterozygous. A heterozygous black mare has a E black gene, and an e red gene. A homozygous black has two EE genes and is dominant for black.
The real difference is that two heterozygous black horses can have a chestnut foal if both horses throw an red e gene. Two homozygous black horses will have a black foal 100% of the time.
According to Equine Genetics, crossing a black and a buckskin will usually give you a bay or a buckskin foal. Occasionally you can also get a palomino, chestnut, black or a smokey black as well if the mare is not homozygous for bay. Since you have a black mare, you know she is not homozygous for bay.
Go back and read the bay and homozygous black categories and you will get a better idea of what you might expect. There are also tons of good equine genetic books out there such as Equine Color Genetics by Sponenberg.
As far as a lab for genetic testing, best bet would be to do a search in australia and see what comes up. We do not have a lab in Canada, so I had to send mane hair to California to find out the genetic make up on my mare.
Hope that helps! Sorry if this all sounds confusing
Renee Posted From: 203.34.9.250
Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 08:18 pm:
horselady, yes, that helps alot! Thanks. i will see what books i can get a hold of, because i find it all really interesting. If she is homozygous black, would that have had to have been passed on from one of her parents?? Somewhere in there there's a red gene, as this season, the same cross that resulted in my Black Tobiano, resulted in a little bay colt. (her grandsire was chestnut and granddam brown) I suppose the only way to find out is to get her tested...or just try!!! Also, do you know how dominant pinto is?? She is bred to a chestnut this year (lots of appy close in his pedigree, and he is beginning to spot himself) and she has alot of pinto close up in her pedigree, and as you know is a tobiano, which would be more dominant to you think??
horselady Posted From: 67.71.153.246
Posted on Tuesday, February 08, 2005 - 11:17 pm:
Hi Renee
If she is homozygous black, she would have to have received two black genes EE. The only real way to know for sure is to find a lab and do the genetic testing. She could be hetero or homo.My guess is probably hetero since she has sorrel and brown in her background, but you just never quite know for sure unless you have the testing done. A bay horse is actually a black horse that has been modified by the agouti gene to limit the black to the points only. On the UC Davis website there is a chart that gives you percentages for probability of foal color. Unfortunately it is only for black, chestnut and bay, click here to see the chart www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/service/horse/coatcolor.html#agouti
As for the whole genetics thing.... I have gotten tons of help on here from Sandy and Cathy and others who have been dealing with the genetics end for a long time. I am fairly new to this and my two mares are having their first babies this spring. I find it very interesting to try to figure out probabilities for foal color and to breed to the color of stallion that gives me the best percentages to give me the colors of foals that I want. Check Ebay for the Equine Color Genetics book. I know it is out of print and has been for some time, but I have seen it listed on there. If you find one, get the newer second edition.
I breed homozygous tobiano paints. You can see my "Becky" on the website www.customcolorhorse4u.com. She is listed in the mares for sale link under the name Sierras Lucky Chick. This is the lady I bought her from last October. She is a homozygous bay, homozygous tobiano mare, bred to the stallion you see when you access the main page, Wimpy King Leos Gold. With this cross I am expecting either a Bay or a chestnut, but hoping for a bay. Before I had her DNA tested I was hoping I might get a black and white, but now that I know she is homozgous bay, she will never have a black foal.
I don't know anything about pintos, so Im afraid I can't help you with your pinto question, but I am sure there are others on here that will answer your questions.
horselady Posted From: 67.71.153.246
Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 08:47 am:
p.s. forgot to mention, if your mare is homozygous for black, she will never have a sorrel foal, which means that all her foals will be black based. If she is heterozygous and bred to a chestnut, you have a very good chance of getting a chestnut foal. The chestnut has two red genes so will pass a red gene to your foal and the mother will either pass a red or black gene if she is heterozygous. If she passes red, you get a chestnut, if she passes black, you get a black. You could also get a bay in rare cases according to the equine color genetics book.
Cathy Posted From: 63.228.245.23
Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 10:38 am:
horselady I found in capter 2 the explaination for the rare bay from 2 blacks. Recently a dominant black gene has been discovered. It over rides the agouti gene. As I said above it is VERY rare. Cathy
horselady Posted From: 67.71.153.246
Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 11:58 am:
ahhh very interesting. I need to find a few hours to sit down and read that book a little more. I guess that explains the rare case of bay horses.
Sandy Posted From: 4.228.252.254
Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 12:55 pm:
Cathy, Maybe that explains the dark bay filly I got out of my two blacks? Very interesting. Renee: As for your question on Pinto vs. Appaloosa, which is more dominant...I'd say that they are equal. Unless of course one of the parents were homozygous for pinto or App. But since you say that the stallion your mare is bred to is just starting to spot, that tells me that he more than likely is NOT a homozygous Appaloosa. I have seen foals born out of pinto and Appaloosa parents (mostly Miniature horses), and the resulting foals are always referred to as Pintaloosas. Now some of them show much more Appaloosa characteristics rather than Pinto and vice versa. And then there have been foals born that have very loud patterns of both. If your mare is homozygous black, she got it from BOTH of her parents, not just one. It would mean that both parents threw their black gene making her EE. But since you say that the same mating resulted in a bay foal, that means that obviously one of the parents has the Agouti gene (not a red gene) that got passed on, so you know for sure that at least one of the parents is only heterozygous black. But two heterozygous blacks CAN produce a homozygous black foal if both parents passed their E gene.
Renee Posted From: 203.34.9.250
Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 06:23 pm:
Thanks! I will go on ebay and see if i can find that book. I have never really looked into the genetics of colour, but this has me really interested. I have been reading alot of the other posts on here, and there is just so much to learn!! Its excellent! I will find someone that can test my mare, it would be good to know what she will throw. Horselady: I went to your website, its really well set up!! I enjoyed looking through it. I love Beauty's filly!! Isnt she gorgeous! and also Sierra Dazzlem Dixie's filly. They are awsome, i bet they sold quickly! Sandy: I hope i get a chestnut pinto (or pintaloosa) from her this year! I would really love some colour! My ultimate would be a paly pinto, but maybe more chance of that with the buckskin stallion. I guess there is just no way to tell unless i get her tested hey. Ill start searching for someone that can do it!! Thanks!
horselady Posted From: 67.71.153.246
Posted on Wednesday, February 09, 2005 - 09:26 pm:
Renee; That website is the website that belongs to the lady I bought Becky from. I don't have one of my own as yet, but hopefully will have something on the web by the time my first foal arrives this May. Beauty is Beckys half sister. I loved her black foal from 2003. It is plain to see that Beauty did not inherit the agouti gene from the father like Becky did. Beckys full brother is also on that site under the stallions. He is also a Bay.
horselady Posted From: 67.71.153.246
Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 10:36 am:
Renee:
Ebay has a copy of Equine COlor Genetics for a buy it now price of around 57US. Its worth the $ to get good genetic info.
Sandy Posted From: 4.228.252.17
Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 11:06 am:
Renee: I too am hoping for a palomino pinto Miniature to be born this year. I have a sorrel pinto mare that is bred to my solid buckskin stallion. My buckskin stallion has only produced one foal so far, and it was a black overo out of a silver black tovero mare. Now, the interesting thing is that this stallion's sire was solid, but he had an Appaloosa sire, so I was actually hoping to get some Appaloosa coloring from him, but I got a big surprise with this overo instead. I don't know whether the black overo colt is a smokey black yet or not. I've been thinking about having him tested to see if he does carry the cream gene. The funny thing about it is that I think it's surprising that my buckskin stallion is a buckskin at all. His sire was a perlino, and his dam a chestnut. So, the chances were actually higher that he should have been a palomino instead of a buckskin. And then to see him produce a black foal really shocked me, considering the mare he was bred to had been bred to a black before and produced a silver dapple. And she was bred to a chestnut twice and produced two sorrels. This is the first black she has ever had, and out of a buckskin! How weird is that?! She is bred back to this same buckskin for a May foal for this year, so it will be interesting to see what she has this time around. But I am really hoping that the sorrel mare has a palomino. I think once you start getting into the color genetics, you will find it very interesting. Not only do I research and learn about just the base color genetics, I am also researching and trying to learn as much as I can about Appaloosa coat patterns and the genetics involved there too. And I have to say, the Appaloosa genetics are much more complicated than the base colors. Here is my website addy if you want to take a look at my "kids." www.angelfire.com/ut2/sbr
Renee Posted From: 203.34.9.250
Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 05:45 pm:
Sandy, that is really weird hey!?! Especially if the mare doesnt even throw black to a black!! I went to your website, he is really nice your (bucky stallion) i just love buckskins, i have the most adorable little bucky filly on the ground at the moment my website is www.freewebs.com/anyssapark if you want to check out my babies. Im still only just getting started in the whole breeding aspect of it, so this year was my first foaling season, it was so wonderful and exciting, there's nothing like it. Your filly "sunny" is beautiful. I hope you get your pally pinto! Im going to check back and see.. spuin your in Utah, id want that foal if it was a pally!!!
Horselady: Sorry, you did say that, i also remember you saying that you only had two mares, dunno where that slipped my mind.. but it obviously did. Becky looks really nice. She will throw a coloured foal every time too yeah?? Being Homozygous tobiano? Id love that guarantee!!
horselady Posted From: 67.71.153.246
Posted on Thursday, February 10, 2005 - 10:18 pm:
Hi Renee;
Yes homozygous for tobiano means that no matter what she is bred to, all her foals will be tobiano patterned. Since she is also homozygous for bay color, most of what she throws will also be bay or chestnut, nothing black based. Im looking at a buckskin stallion and hoping for a buckskin foal if he gives up his creme gene, and maybe even a palomino Guess I'll see what my two babies turn out to be this May and July and go from there !
Sandy Posted From: 4.228.243.113
Posted on Friday, February 11, 2005 - 12:34 pm:
Renee: Your buckskin filly is adorable! You have some darling little horses. Breeding minis is wonderful and exciting and at the same time a little scary I think. I am so paranoid about Sunny foaling since it is her first and she's not a very big mare. Hopefully she takes after her mom and foals out really easy. Her belly isn't very big at the moment and she is 293 days along....so I hope that means it will be a small foal. Oh well, I guess I only have about another month and a half to find out
Renee Posted From: 203.34.9.250
Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 05:04 pm:
Sandy, It is really scary isnt it. My first foal EVER and first of the season was born in August. I dont know if you looked at the memorium page on my website, but He was stuck in the birth canal for over 2 hours and came out alive but dummy. He ended up dying from septicemia a few days later, and since then, i have always been so nervous with all my other girls foaling. I havent had a problem with foaling since, but you can never be too safe can you!! I am always so over prepared now. Vets on call 24/7 until the little one arrives safely. This was a large foal, and he was mispresented, so its not a likely foaling. If Sunny's mum foals easy, then yes, hopefully she will! Good luck with her, i am sure all will be fine!!!
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