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Dilute, creme gene horses

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » Dilute, creme gene horses « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

horselady
Posted From: 64.230.153.197
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 10:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a bay homozygous tobiano that I just sent hair off to Davis to test for homozygous agouti.
I know she has one red gene and one black gene, and also must have one agouti gene to be a bay.. Now from what I understand so far about genetics, if she is AA (homozygous for agouti) she will always have a bay or chestnut foal no matter whether I breed to chestnut or black ( homozygous or heterozygous).
If this is the case, I am thinking I should be trying for another color of foal by using a cremello or perlino, or something in the dilute family. My understanding is that a cremello could pass the creme gene and give me a buckskin or possibly a palomino. Is this the best way to stay away from Bay or Chestnut?
 

Sandy
Posted From: 4.228.252.154
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 12:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

horselady:
If your mare tests AA, she will not have a chestnut foal. She should always produce a foal that has black points. But if she is Aa, then yes, she can produce chestnut foals.
A cremello and perlino will always pass a creme gene, because they have a double dose of creme.
If your mare tests AA and you breed her to a cremello, you will always get a buckskin. If you breed her to a perlino, which carries the black gene, plus a double dose of creme you should get buckskin or smokey black if your mares tests AA.
If your mare tests Aa and also has the one red gene and one black (as you already know she does) and you breed her to a cremello, you have the chance for a buckskin or a palomino. And from a perlino you still have the chance of buckskin, palomino or smokey black.
If she tests AA, you will never get a palomino foal from her.
The best bet with this mare to stay away from getting a chestnut, if she tests Aa is to just not breed her to a chestnut/sorrel.
If she tests AA, you're always going to get a bay foal unless you breed her to one of the double dilutes. (cremello, perlino).
 

horselady
Posted From: 64.230.153.197
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 12:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guess I will have to wait and see what she comes back - AA or Aa and make a decision from there. I havent seen any cremella or perlino stallions at stud in Canada, so now I am also going to be looking into shipping semen from the US.

If she tests AA and I bred to a buckskin who threw a creme gene, then I might get a buckskin with black points out of that?
 

Cath;y
Posted From: 63.228.245.23
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 03:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually a chestnut horse can itself be AA, and have chestnut and palomino foals. Remember it only effects black. My palomino stallion has the agouti gene.
If she is AA you will never get a black foal out of her, or a smokey black. The agouti gene would turn them to bays and buckskins.
If we assume the buckkin stallion is AaCcree
bred to you mare and she ends up AACCEe you can get chestnut 12.5% bay 37.5% palomino 12.5% and buckskin 37..5 %
If she is AaCCEe your chances are
Chestnut 12.5% bay 28.125% black 9.375 palomino 12.5% buckskin 28.125% smokey black 9.375%
As you see if she is AA all blacks were eliminated. Cathy
 

horselady
Posted From: 64.230.153.197
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 05:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ill do a rain dance for no AA's :-) I spoke today with the lady at UC Davis and I should hopefully have the tests back in a couple of weeks allowing for mail etc. Then I will know if my bay is EeAa or EeAA.
 

Sandy
Posted From: 67.50.40.182
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 06:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, Cathy is right, I realized I put that if she were AA she could have a smokey black....that's only if she is Aa.
I didn't know that chestnuts could be AA?
So, what would happen if you bred two chestnuts together that was AA? Would you still get a chestnut that is actually homozygous for Agouti?
And if you bred that chestnut that is AA to a hetero black, are you always going to get bay?
Cathy: Your palomino that tests AA, what color are his parents? I'm just curious as I did not know that chestnuts or palominos could be homozygous for Agouti.
 

horselady
Posted From: 64.230.153.197
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 06:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If I am understanding Cathy correctly, any horse of any color other than black can have AA but you wouldnt know it because the Agouti only limits the black on a black horse. SInce the chestnut has no black, it cant limit what it doesnt have. This is why a chestnut can be AA and you wouldnt know until it was crossed.

From the chart on the UC Davis site, breeding a chestnut with the AA to a heterozygous black EeAa you would get a bay 50% of the time, and a chestnut 50% of the time, but remember, even that sneaky little chestnut could have an agouti that isnt showing because it has no black to repress.

Aint genetics fun!
 

horselady
Posted From: 64.230.153.197
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 06:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

p.s. If you bred two chestnuts eeAA you would get a chestnut 100% of the time.
 

Cathy
Posted From: 67.129.138.2
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 07:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sandy My stallions dam is chestnut sire palomino. His Sires sire was palomino and dam chestnut. His sires dams parents were both chestnut. Cathy
 

Sandy
Posted From: 67.50.40.182
Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 06:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Cathy,
I was just wondering because I know you can get a palomino from a buckskin, but really have never seen it happen myself.
I have a chestnut mare bred to a buckskin, whose sire was perlino, dam chestnut, and I'm really hoping for a palomino out of the two. But now I'm beginning to wonder if he is AA, would that mean that he wouldn't produce a palomino, but more than likely a buckskin?
 

Cathy
Posted From: 63.228.245.23
Posted on Wednesday, January 19, 2005 - 08:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A palomino is a chestnut with a cream gene. A buckskin is a bay with the Cream gene. A bay is a black horse with the agouti gene, so if he is AA the only thing it would change is if you could get black foals or not. If he is Aa you can get black if he is AA all black based foals would be bay.
So if AA you have a 25% chance of each Palomino, sorrel, buckskin, and bay. Those % will only change if he is homozygous for black. In that case you would not get the red base.
 

Sandy
Posted From: 67.50.40.182
Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 06:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well then, he can't be AA, because his 2004 foal is black out of a silver black mare and I know she is not homo for black because she has produced 2 chestnut foals.
So, since he must be Aa, do the percentages stay the same?
And if he is homo for black, then that obviously will get rid of the chance for palomino production, correct?
 

Cathy
Posted From: 63.228.245.23
Posted on Thursday, January 20, 2005 - 08:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You are correct that if he is homo for black it will rule out any red based foals. Aa will effect the %. If he is AaEe you're % are 25% sorrel and palomino. 12.5% bay and buckskin, and 12.5 % black and smokey black
 

Sandy
Posted From: 4.228.249.93
Posted on Sunday, January 23, 2005 - 09:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Come to think of it, he cannot be homo for black, his dam is sorrel. His black/buckskin coloration came from his sire who was perlino. So, my guess is that he is AaEe. So, I'm keeping my fingers crossed that we either have a palomino, buckskin or black. A smokey black would be fine too.
Thanks :-)
 

Debbie Burnett
Neonate
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 2
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 07:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

can someone give me a quick lesson in perlinos and cremellos? I believe perlinos are black based, while cremellos are brown based... so.... if I was to purchase a perlino and cross it with a buckskin etc, would I have a chance for a palomino or cremello? or would I have to have a cremello to get the brown based colors
 

Debbie Burnett
Neonate
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 6
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 09:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

one more thing.... do perlinos have red eyes, or are the ones I have been looking at just the victims of poor picture taking?
 

Cathy
Neonate
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 3
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 08:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Debbie as long as the perlino, or the buckskin are not homozygous for black you have a chance of getting palomino and cremello, but much smaller than if you bred to a cremello.
Breeding a cremello to sorrel will get palomino 100% of the time. Both of these double dilutes have blue eyes, so it could just be the photograghy.
 

Debbie Burnett
Neonate
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 7
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 09:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cathy;

Thanks kinda what I was thinking regarding the brown based and black based cremello vs the perlino. There is a perlino on a website where I bought my first horse www.customcolorhorse4u.com If you click on the stallions/geldings for sale link take a look at the perlino named Sierras all the Gold. It looks to me like he has red eyes, though like you said, it could be the photography. Tell me what you think of him, and also on the mares page, Freckles Cremello, a QH. I always thought that the perlinos had more color than the cremellos, and the perlinos had the darker tail and mane hair, but in this case, if Freckles Cremello is a cremello, shes darker than the stallion that is classified as a Perlino... what do you think?
 

Cathy
Neonate
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 4
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 09:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I do think the red is just "red eye" When I looked at the 2 I think he is much darker than she is. The bottom of her tail looks darker, but I think it is just staining.
The difference in what we see could very well be differences in monitors. You can change brightness ect on a monitor. I know I can fiddle with my red and green and it makes a huge difference in what a picture looks like as far as color.
 

Debbie Burnett
Neonate
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 9
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 07:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

thanks for the info :-)
 

jim holmes (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 63.157.36.20
Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 10:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A perlino has blue eyes or he wouldn't be a perlino. A perlino can be EE,CrCr,AA or Ee,CrCr,Aa or any other combination of E or A. He must have two Cr genes. A cremello has ee but does not have to have the Agouti. Some do but in my experience most don't. Both cremellos and perlinos have blue eyes.
 

Debbie Burnett
Weanling
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 30
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 12:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a line on a homozygous tobiano perlino 2 year old. I have asked the breeder to send mane hair for creme gene testing. I want to know the exact genetic make up of this horse, and whether she may be homozygous for black. Her dam is a buckskin and about 16.1 hands high, the sire is a palomino tobi and about 15'3 Any guesses as to how high this mare may end up. Im guessing somewhere around dad's height. Any taller than that and Ill need a ladder!

Wish me luck !

Deb
 

Debbie Burnett
Weanling
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 31
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 02:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just thought of something.. if the sire is palomino,(APHA says out of a black Tobi and a sorrel tobi) then the perlino mare can't be homo for black. She would have received EeAa or eeAA depending on whether the buckskin threw E or e. The palomino would have to be ee with creme gene if I am getting this all correct.

So, if this perlino mare is EeAa, and bred to a heterozygous black, or homozygous buckskin, what would our foal colors be?

The owner has had her DNA tested for tobiano and she is homozygous, but no color testing has been done. She is willing to do this, so I am thinking the horse should be tested for black, red and agouti as well as creme. We might as well know as much info on her as we can.
 

Cathy
Nursing Foal
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 11
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 09:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Debbie I may be reading your post wrong but a palomino can NOT come from a black and sorrel unless the black is smokey black. Can you check what the parents of the black tobi are?
 

Debbie Burnett
Weanling
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 32
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 03:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cathy:

I was thinking the same thing. That's why I put the colors of the parents in brackets. Seems odd that a palomino came out of a black and sorrel.
The parents of the black tobi were black and bay, and the grandparents of the black were palomino and black. APHA # 00778441
 

Debbie Burnett
Weanling
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 33
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 03:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am starting to wonder if maybe this registered tobiano perlino may actually be a tobi cremello. She doesnt have alot of color, and her momma was a buckskin out of a Dun and a palomino, while the pop was a palomino out of a black and sorrel ( though there must be a creme gene in that black someplace to get a palomino.

What if both parents threw creme and red genes. Since this mare hasnt been genetically tested, how can we be sure that she is perlino and not cremello?

Looking back on the pedigree on APHA for this mare, 4 generations back, it shows two sorrel QH's siring a black tobi. Something definitely wrong here for sure.
 

Cathy
Nursing Foal
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 14
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 08:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You can have him tested for black and agouti. To be perlino he has to have both. As far as the colors on the papers sounds like you can pretty much discount them
 

Debbie Burnett
Weanling
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 35
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 10:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

With the mother being buckskin tobi and the father being palomino, I don't think she would be homo for black since no black gene from the dad.

So you are saying that if the horse comes back with AA or Aa then it is considered perlino? Im a bit confused as to the different genetics of perlino versus cremello

Is cremello eeCrCr ? and no a or A?

and perlino EeCrCrAa or EECrCrAA ?


p.s. just found out that Becky was out with the stallion from June 12-16th. Im sure the breeder told me June 4- 12 the

Shes saying now that her due date is around the 18th of May. ughhhh.... oh well, whats MORE waiting.. sooner or later we have a foal.

Deb
 

jim holmwa (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 63.157.36.141
Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 11:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A perlino can be EE or Ee. He must have two Cr genes. He must have at least one Agouti. It is better if he has two Agoutis. A cremello will be ee no other way out. He must have two Cr genes. He can be aa. This means no Agouti or one which is would be Aa or two AA. Most cremello walking horses do not have an Agouti. Ask their owners to test them before you breed.
 

Debbie Burnett
Weanling
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 36
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Sunday, May 08, 2005 - 11:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jim:

why is it better if the perlino has two agoutis?
 

Cathy
Nursing Foal
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 15
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 12:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Debbie AA will insure that all black based foals are bay, and because CrCr this insures that all of these will be buckskin. In othewords if you are looking to get bay or buckskin then AA would be better. That is all.
In order for him to be perlino he must have one copy of the black gene as well as one copy of the agouti dominant gene.
Cremello can be eeCrCrAA. Agout does not have any affect on red.
To be perlino he must be at least EeCrCrAa.

 

Debbie Burnett
Weanling
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 37
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 07:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cathy;

OK i understand that. Now, back to that darn old Agouti gene, if she has one copy of the agouti gene, will she still be able to produce other colors such as palomino or smokey blacks or am I going to have another mare that is like Becky and gives me Bays.
I would like to cross this mare on a buckskin stud, and possibily even a palomino, black, etc.
I have asked this owner to do DNA testing on the mare to see exactly what her makeup is. For all I know she could be a cremello with a palomino sire and a buckskin damn if both threw a red gene and no black. She has never been DNA tested for color, only for tobiano.
 

jim holmes (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 63.153.0.71
Posted on Monday, May 09, 2005 - 08:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If one of the breeding pair is a double Agouti AA. Then you have to add Cr and black E to get buckskin. There are a lot of perlino studs who have one Agouti and they will and do produce smokey black quite often. The ideal buckskin producer is EE,CrCr,AA but finding one is the trick. The Agouti gene won't bother you at all if you will stay away from horses with a black gene E. It is only expressed when black is present and it makes the black go to the points. Every color can have it but black. Notice, I said "can" not must. Those who must have it are bay, buckskin, and perlino.
 

Debbie Burnett
Yearling
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 72
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 10:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The UC Davis testing came back on this double dilue mare. I was right. SHes a cremello and not a perlino as the APHA registered her.

She is ee with Cr and Aa. cremello with red factor, no black

My question now would be... what effect will the Aa for agouti have on her foals

crossing her with a black
with a palomino
with a buckskin
chestnut

will all her foals be black tipped? Will we get any smokey blacks? If i breed to a palomino, then we wont get anything with black points, correct?

Im trying to stay away from the black pointed horses as I already have a homo bay mare who will give me Bays and Buckskins. Im looking for more color possibilities like palomino, cremello, perlino, etc.
 

Cathy
Weanling
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 21
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 02:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Debbie remember The A gene does not effect red in any way so breeding to a chesntut or palomino even if they have the A gene as this cremello does, will not change anything as far as ther color goes. It restricts black to the points so a back will be bay and a smokey black will be buckskin and a bay with cream and A will be buckskin. Because he is heterozygous you can get smokey black from a black mate.
 

Debbie Burnett
Yearling
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 76
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 06:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The buckskin mare at the foaling facility delivered a beautiful little cremello or perlino colt last week. Hmmmm.... kinda hard to get a cremello or perlino from the cross between a black and a buckskin.. the black isnt a smokey black either. Hes tested homo for black with no creme gene.
Kinda makes ya wonder who slipped into the pasture with that mare

Oh.. did I mention that the facility has a buckskin stud standing there but they swear up and down that HE didnt get into the mares paddock. uh huh,, yep.. sure didnt. haaaa.

Too bad the resulting foal was a colt. I would have loved it to be a filly. Hes long legged and beautiful blue eyes and gorgeous pattern - homozygous tobi and obviously homo creme too. Sure would have saved me a fortune in transporting and taxes at the border to find a cremello an hour from home instead of 17 hours.
 

Debbie Burnett
Yearling
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 77
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Saturday, June 18, 2005 - 06:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cathy. My homo tobi homo bay mare was bred to that sneaky old buckskin from the above post. She is being ultrasounded on Monday to see if we have a foal on the way. I still have a brain cramp with this whole agouti thing.... i mean.... if shes homo for agouti AA, will she be able to have a palomino? I think the answer is yes to palomino, chestnut, bay or buckskin as the resulting foals, but an old horsetrader I was chatting with at a horse show last weekend told me she will only ever throw bays. Made me rethink the whole agouti thing all over.

So, for sanity sake, whats your opinion on this mare and what her offspring may be.

The buckskin has produced two foals this year, his first breeding year, a buckskin, and this cremello or perlino from the above post. The owner of the stallion has not had him DNA tested, so we have no idea of his Agouti makeup other than he obviously has one A to be a buckskin, and a creme gene, and one red and one black gene.
 

Sandy D
Yearling
Username: Sbr_appaloosas

Post Number: 64
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 23, 2005 - 12:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Debbie,
I think your chances for getting a palomino foal from this mare are very slim. If you were to breed her to a double dilute, a cremello or perlino, you have a 100% chance of a buckskin foal. Here is an excerpt taken from the book "Horse Color Explained."
Perlino or cremello bred to a homozygous bay will give buckskin 100 percent of the time.
Bay bred to buckskin = base color, usually bay 50%. Dilute, usually buckskin 50%.

Remember, with her being AA, she will always pass one A gene. So you need to stay away from breeding to horses who also carry the agouti, which of course a buckskin does. If you're wanting to get foals out of her that are a different color than bay or buckskin, I would try breeding her to a homo black. You can at then at least try for black foals.
 

Cathy
Weanling
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 26
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 12:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Debbie I don't remember if I told you my palomino stallion has been tested and carries the agouti gene. What is getting everyone confused it looks like to me is forgetting that agouti has NO affect on red.
Since your mare has the red gene she has a 50-50 chance of passing it on. So if you breed her to a double dilute you have a 50% chance of getting a palomino.

One last note. Sandy since this mare is homozygous for agouti she will never have a black foal. She will always pass the A which restricts the black to the points, thus bay. :-)
 

Debbie Burnett
Yearling
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 84
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 09:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks gals: There seems to be some confusion on this whole Agouti thing. I have been told I have a 25% chance of Bay, Buckskin, Palomino or Chestnut depending on whether the Agouti is homo in the buckskin, or whether he throws me his creme gene. I know I will never get a black foal out of this mare as she will always throw an A being AA herself.
Now, if she throws a red gene, the stallion throws a red gene and creme gene and not the agouti, then would we not get a palomino even if my homo bay mare throws in one A for good measure?
Or, alternatively, red gene, red gene no creme... chestnut,

or... red gene, red gene, agouti agouti creme buckskin,

or lastly, red gene, red gene agouti and no creme, another Bay.

I would love to have a buckskin filly from this cross and I would definitely keep her and breed to another buckskin down the road for a cremello or perlino tobi
 

Cathy
Weanling
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 28
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, June 24, 2005 - 10:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No you're still not getting it. Agouti does NOT affect red base.
2 reds 1 or 2 agouti and one cream is palomino.
2 red 1 or 2 agouti and no cream is sorrel.
To get buckskin or bay you have to have at least one black gene and one agouti gene.
 

Sandy D
Yearling
Username: Sbr_appaloosas

Post Number: 67
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 01:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So then, wouldn't Debbie's best chance for a buckskin foal from her mare be to breed to a cremello? If Agouti has no effect on red, then why aren't there palomino foals born from homo bay X cremello? As I said in the earlier post, cremello X bay = buckskin 100% of the time. You would assume that if agouti does not affect red, you should be getting palomino from this cross also.
And if she were to breed her homo bay to a homo black, couldn't she get a very dark bay that basically looks black.
I personally have bred a dark bay mare(sire was dark bay, dam was red dun) to a black stallion and have gotten a jet black foal. I do not know whether the mare is homo for agouti, but every foal she produced up until that time had been a dark bay, out of black and chestnut stallions. And I also know that the black stallion was not homo black as he had produced a couple of chestnut foals. This foal was JET black, there was no way she was bay in any way, shape or form. She was the blackest of black. So, despite what genetics say, I honestly believe you can get a black foal from genetic bay especially if you breed to a non Agouti carrying horse. You have to remember that a bay IS a black horse and eventhough Debbie's mare is AA she is only going to pass on one A. So essentially, I believe if she were to breed to a homo black, with no Agouti gene present, she could have a black foal carrying one copy of Agouti that may not be expressed.
 

Debbie Burnett
Yearling
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 85
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 10:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

sorry I messed up on the buckskin genetics. It would have to have one copy of black, naturally, to get that buckskin filly Id like from this cross. Since my Becky has EeAA, she has one black gene. I assume since the buckskin stud has some sorrel in his background, he may also be EeAaCr, or EeAAcr, who knows. I believe the breeder is having him DNA tested in the near future.

So, for that buckskin filly, I need one black gene, one red, and AA or Aa and one creme ?if Im understanding all this genetics stuff.

If the buckskin stud isnt homo for bay, and is Aa instead of AA like my bay, and he throws an a instead of an A, does the genetics change? I mean is a buckskin EeAACr, EeAaCr or both?

Sandy, according to the color chart, bay and cremello will give you a buckskin , which I guess makes since since the bay will be diluted by the cremello's creme gene. But, also according to the chart, you can get palomino or smokey black, but I assume this is only if both horses are not homo for agouti. (A cremello can be homo for agouti, but since there is no black to express, it doesnt show the typical limiting to the tips like in a bay-- which is a genetically black horse). What you say makes sense about the one copy of agouti resulting in a black horse, unless it only takes one copy of Agouti to turn a black horse into a bay and not two AA's

Anyway, half the fun is trying to play the odds and figure out what you are going to get in the end. I have told the stud and becky that I want a buckskin filly, so I guess I will wait and see what I end up with in about 320 days from now :-)
 

Cathy
Weanling
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 29
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Saturday, June 25, 2005 - 01:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sandy Yes Debbie’s best chance for buckskin would be breeding to a cremello. Palomino foals can and are born from bay cremello crosses as long as the bay is not homo for black. You will only get buckskin 100% if the bay is homo for black and A. It only takes one A to turn a black horse bay.
Homo bay to homo black will only result in bay and yes they can be very dark and LOOK black. Genotype and phenotype can be very different.
Breeding your dark bay mare to a black stallion and getting a black foal is not uncommon unless the mare was homo for agouti. The color of the sire in your mare’s case doesn’t matter for her to throw bay. She passed her black and agouti and that makes bay. If she passed her black and not her agouti of course you can get black.
If Debbie bred to a homo black and her mare is homo bay she will never get a genetic black it will always be bay even if very dark bay.
Debbie like bay-buckskin only has to have one A one black and one cream, but can have 2 A and/or 2 black and one cream.



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