| Author |
Message |
    
twhgait
Posted From: 69.23.219.90
| | Posted on Friday, November 26, 2004 - 04:47 pm: | 
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I so appreciate the answers to people's foal color questions, I want to post my own and see what you think!!!
My mare is a chestnut (no white except for star, snip), her dam is a bay and her sire is a black.
The stallion is a spotted gray roan and VERY lit up! His sire is pretty much marked like him. I don't know about his dam. Some of his foals have been so white I imagine they probably burn in the summer.
I did NOT breed to this guy for color, but curiosity has caused me to ask this fateful question: What color options are present in this combination? |
Sandy
Posted From: 4.227.172.224
| | Posted on Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 12:24 pm: |
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Hi there,
It is so hard to determine a foal color when you're dealing with a horse who is just classified as "gray." That horse, although a gray, does indeed have a base color too: bay, black, chestnut and so on. So, in order to determine what color you could possibly get from a gray, you'd have to know his base color before he turned white.
When breeding to a grey, there is always a 50% possibility that the resulting foal will also have the greying gene and eventually turn white with age.
Your mare's parents obviously both had a chestnut gene that they passed on, resulting in a chestnut foal. So, if the grey stallion's base color is chestnut, the resulting foal would be a chestnut with a 50% chance of turning white.
If the stallion's base color is something other than chestnut, you have a 50% chance of getting chestnut along with the 50% chance of the greying gene. Unless of course the stallion is homozygous for black or bay.
Like I said, it's really hard to determine a foal color unless you know both parent's base colors.
Sorry not to be of more help. |
twhgait
Posted From: 69.23.219.90
| | Posted on Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 08:07 pm: |
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Hey Sandy,
Thank you so much! You were more help then you know! Just having an idea of the possibilities is enough for me and you have taught me things I didn't know! That darn chestnut gene is sure annoying thou......  |
Sandy
Posted From: 4.228.165.34
| | Posted on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 06:30 pm: |
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Yeah, chestnut is the easiest color to breed for! It is the most recessive color and can pop up just about anywhere.
Take your mare for instance; I'm sure when her breeders bred a bay mare to a black stallion they never expected to get a chestnut. I know I sure would have been surprised.
Oh well, no matter what color your foal turns out to be, I wish you a healthy, perfect baby, that's all I ever ask for |
Eagle View Arabians
Posted From: 152.163.100.13
| | Posted on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 11:13 pm: |
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Chestnut will get you every time! My mare is bay and was bred to a dark bay stallion. Two previous foals were bay out of this combination and then this past spring she had a chestnut. Not only did the chestnut give me a big shock but the filly is sabino on top of it! |
Anonymous
Posted From: 67.129.136.122
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 12:05 am: |
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These excerpts are from 2 different color sites. Hope they help.
Smoky Black is caused by a single dose of the Cream gene on Black. Because the Cream gene is an incomplete dominant it does not affect black pigment physically unless it is present in homozygous form.
Smoky Black horses look like regular Black horses although some may be faded so much they appear Brown or even Bay.
Now we have always heard that there is an exception to every rule and we are about to give you that exception in reference to the cream gene. Black is the ONLY color that can partially hide or even cover up the cream gene. A chestnut with the cream gene is a palomino, a bay with the cream gene is a buckskin, but a black with the cream gene can appear to be black although it is actually a smoky black. However the cream gene is still present and can produce palominos from a smoky black to chestnut mating. This is the one sure way to determine if the horse is a smoky; since the chestnut can only contribute a red gene, the dominant cream gene showing the palomino color has to come from the smoky.
Smoky foals usually are born with blue or grey eyes that later darken or go amber gold. They often have light tan or gold appearing tufts of hair in the ears (or even the whole inside). The foal coat color usually appears the same as a black foal, although some may look like dark buckskins until the foal coat sheds and the black color becomes evident. Some may even develop gold dapples on the body as they mature. One of the great things about smoky black is that even though they appear black, most times they will breed as though they are palomino. |
Anonymous
Posted From: 67.129.136.122
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 12:06 am: |
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sorry wrong post. |
Chelsey (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 69.54.129.174
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 09:39 pm: |
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I am doing a science project on what color of foal my sorrel mare will have. We bred her to a dun what colors can we get? percentages? please I need this information by the 8th! |
Sandy D
Nursing Foal
Username: Sbr_appaloosas
Post Number: 11
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 12:12 am: |
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Hi Chelsey,
When one parent is a dun, there is a 50% chance that the resulting foal will have the dun gene. You didn't say what color the dun is, but if it is a red dun then you have a 100% chance of getting a red based foal along with the 50% chance of it being a dun.
So, if the dun stallion is a red dun your percentages are:
50% of chestnut
50% of red dun
Chestnut X chestnut produces chestnut 100% of the time.
(sorrel is considered chestnut) |
Beverly Outlaw
Neonate
Username: Outlawpaints
Post Number: 2
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 08:48 am: |
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hi! I have a color question.. We bred My palomino and white paint to our Bay & white stud. He is a tri-color. I was just wondering what color we could get... Thanks in advance..... |
Kim k
Neonate
Username: Kimk
Post Number: 8
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 10:02 am: |
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Hi Sandy, You seem to know your stuff about color genitics. I just don't seem to be able to follow it very well. Maybe if I really spent some time studying it better ??
So my question is what will you get by breeding a chestnut to a bay
a chestnut to a black
a chestnut to a dun and
a chestnut to a gray
a chestnut to a sorrel ??
Isn't a sorrel color horse a little lighter than a chestnut ? I have always been a bit confused by the sorrel/chestnut thing. Dosn't chestnut seem to be a darker richer color ?
Thanks for your help, always trying to figure the color thing out. It seems like the pros just get it figured out and there is a new gene produced by breeders trying to improve a color and then there is a whole new spectrum of color again
Thanks Kim |
Debbie Burnett
Weanling
Username: Horselady
Post Number: 27
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 10:53 pm: |
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Bev:
A palomino crossed with a bay will give you a buckskin or a bay. The palomino has a creme gene, which it may or may not throw in this case. If it throws the creme gene, you will get a buckskin. If not, you will get a Bay.
A bay horse coloring is one of the hardest colors to overcome when crossing horses. Add to that, whether your Bay is homozygous for agouti or for black.
If the palomino does not throw its creme gene, but rather its red gene, (palomino is a chestnut with a creme gene), then you could also get a chestnut. IF the Bay throws a red gene and the palomino throws a red gene and the creme gene, you could get a palomino foal from that.
If the bay is homozygous for black and throws a black gene, and your palomino throws the red and creme gene, you could get a smokey black.
Lots of possibilities from this cross, all depending on what gene each horse throws and whether the palomino throws the creme in on top of that. 
Deb
p.s. theres a great book out there called Equine Color Genetics. You can probably find it on Ebay. Get the second edition. Its the color breeders bible and answers many genetic questions complete with a color chart at the back. |
Debbie Burnett
Weanling
Username: Horselady
Post Number: 28
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 11:00 pm: |
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Kim;
A chestnut to a black will give you a bay, a chestnut or possibly a black. The chestnut has two red genes, the black horse could have two black genes, or a black gene and a red gene depending on whether the black horse is homozygous for black or not.
Chestnut to zebra dun gives the possibilities of Zebra Dun, with slightly less probability of Bay, Red Dun, or Chestnut with the occasional Grullo or Black thrown in for good measure.
Chestnut to sorrel (which is another color of chestnut) will always give you a chestnut.
I don't know about the grey probabilities as I think you would have to know the colors of the parents of the grey to begin to figure that one out. Do you know what color the grey horse was when born? Usually grey horses are born with color and progressively acquire white hair throughout their coats as they age. |
Sandy D
Nursing Foal
Username: Sbr_appaloosas
Post Number: 12
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 11:31 pm: |
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Kim,
Deb is pretty right on with her color possibilities.
Any time you're breeding a chestnut horse, there is always a 50% chance for getting a chestnut UNLESS you're breeding the chestnut to something that is homozygous for black, OR if you breed to a double dilute (cremello, perlino).
And with the gray horse, there is always a 50% chance the resulting foal will have the gray gene and turn white with age.
Chestnut and sorrel are classified as the same color, chesnut. There are various shades of chestnut from your dark liver chestnuts to the light red with the flax mane and tails otherwise called sorrel. But they are all still genetically chestnuts, carrying two copies of the red gene. |
Cathy
Neonate
Username: Cathy
Post Number: 8
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 11:31 am: |
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Only one change to Debs post. To get a bay from a chestnut and black cross the chestnut would have to have the agouti gene. We know the black doesn't have it or he would be bay. |
TX Breeder (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 199.3.209.136
| | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 08:36 pm: |
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I have an almost black colored Bay stallion. The following is a list of the colors he has thrown;
Mare
Bay Tobiano- Bay Tobiano foals (3x)
Palomino- Palomino foal 2x(Bright white mane&tail)
Solid Bay- Black,Bay foals
Buckskin- Dark Liver foal
Sorrel- Red Dun,Liver,Red Roan,Sorrel,Bay
Grey- Blue Roan foals 2x
Bay- Bay (many), Red Chestnut w/roaning,Dark Chestnut foals
Dun- Sorrel foal
Black- Liver,Bay foal
Chestnut- Bay,Chestnut foal
I really want a buckskin! What do you think?} |
Kim k
Nursing Foal
Username: Kimk
Post Number: 12
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 09:52 pm: |
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Hmm Tx Breeder,
I Had a red dun overo stallion and breed him to my gray qh mare, I was getting buckskin from this cross.
Kim |
TX Breeder (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 199.3.209.136
| | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 10:04 pm: |
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So I need to find a Dun Overo mare? |
Cathy
Nursing Foal
Username: Cathy
Post Number: 12
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 10:21 pm: |
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TX Breeder do you know if your stallion is homozygous for black, or for agouti for that matter. If he is both breeding to a cremello or perlino will get you a buckskin every time |
Tx Breeder (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 199.3.209.136
| | Posted on Friday, May 06, 2005 - 10:55 pm: |
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I haven't any idea Cathy. I just am amazed at all the different colors that pop out with him! Of course, I want a color that is not easy to come by in the cutting bloodlines of Doc O'Lena.
I thought that maybe you could tell by the combination I listed above. I sure can't. I just have always like a Buckskin! I was hoping that one of those Palomino mares would do it if she threw the creme gene. |
Cathy
Nursing Foal
Username: Cathy
Post Number: 13
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 07, 2005 - 09:08 am: |
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Your best chance would be breeding him to palomino or buckskin which is my all time favorite color too. |
Anonymous
Posted From: 63.144.70.113
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 02:38 pm: |
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Tx Breeder, If I follow the mares your stallion has bred, he seems to be a black bay or seal brown, as some would call him. It also seems he has never thrown a black foal. So what I get from this, is your stallion has one black and one red gene, and has two bay/brown genes. This is why you keep getting palomino's chestnuts and bays basically.
The blue roan foals I would have to question without seeing them, are you sure they just weren't grey like there dam. And were they actually black at birth.
At any rate, your best bet at getting a buckskin are to breed to a perlino mare, (double cream mare) that is also homozygous for black, meaning she cannot throw a red foal. Or find a buckskin mare the same way, homozygous for the black gene and agouti (bay). You only have a 50% chance each time you breed the mare though for a buckskin with this second cross.
T. |
Andrea (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 65.28.42.199
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 02:44 pm: |
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You are all very smart....not joking.
I came up with this please tell me if I am mistaken. If I breed my QH Stud Palomino to my QH mare Palomino I have 25% chance of chestnut, 25% chance of cremello, and 50% chance of Palomino?
Also what can I breed to get sorrel with Flaxen mane and tail?
Also, if I breed my Bay stud to a Perlino mare will I get 100% buckskin? |
Cathy
Yearling
Username: Cathy
Post Number: 57
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 09:06 pm: |
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Andrea your % on the pal to pal x is correct.
Flaxen is not understood yet, but to get it you would have to have one flaxen parent. It is not yet understood how other colors may affect it.
A buckskin has to have at least one black, one agouti, and one cream gene. The Perlino will have at least one black, one agouti, and will have 2 creams. The bay has to have at least one black and one agouti. Because both do not have to have more than one black or agouti you can get a smokey black, or palomino with that cross. If either of them is homozygous for black, and one for agouti then it would be 100% buckskin foals. If the bay were Homo for black AND agouti you could breed to a cremelo and also get 100% buckskin. |
Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady
Post Number: 104
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 01:42 pm: |
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My homozygous bay tobiano was bred to a flaxen gened chestnut, the resulting filly was a Bay. From what I understand about the flaxen gene, it is a recessive, so for the foal to have the flaxen show, both parents must carry the flaxen gene in the recessive state and pass it on to the foal. The chestnuts parents were both chestnuts, no flaxen showing, but obviously both parents had the recessive gene and passed it on to the stud for him to have flaxen mane and tail. My foal is a bay, no flaxen, though she does carry the flaxen gene in its recessive state. If I would cross her with another flaxen gened stud, she could then produce a flaxen colored foal. |
Renee
Yearling
Username: Reneec
Post Number: 55
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 09:39 pm: |
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Hi everyone,
I am sending a few of my mares to outside stallions this year, and was wondering what the colour possibilities are;
STALLION # 1 - Bay (by a Flaxen Chestnut out of a bay mare)
STALLION # 2 - Chestnut Splashed White (by a Palomino Splashed White, out of unknown coloured mare
So, my mares are;
Stallion #1 X Black Tobiano Mare (Black toby x Black)
Stallion #1 X Grullo Mare (unknown breeding)
Stallion #2 X Brown LWO+ Min Overo (Liver Chestnut Overo x brown)
What do you think my colour possibilities will be? I dont know if the black tobiano mare is homozygous for black (she has had one foal, he was black homozygous).
Any input? Ideas?
THANKS!! |
Kelly Lea Adams
Nursing Foal
Username: Kelly_lea
Post Number: 14
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 02:50 pm: |
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Hi Renee,
I suppose I'll answer your question.
I will assume none of the stallions or mares are homozygous for any gene unless otherwise stated.
Bay Stallion x Black Tob Mare
Colour possibilities: Sorrel/chestnut, bay, black
Paint possibilities: Solid, Tobiano
--------------------------------------
Bay Stallion x Grullo Mare
Colour possibilities:
Sorrel/Chestnut/Red Dun
Black/Bay/Grullo/Bay Dun
I'm assuming the grullo mare has no hidden colour genes.
--------------------------------------
Chestnut Overo Stallion x Brown Overo Mare
Colour possibilities: Sorrel/chestnut/bay/black
Paint possibilities: Solid, Overo, LW foal
I've excluded brown as a colour, because it's not a seperate colour, it's genetically a bay, you can add it if you wish.
Good luck on your foals!
Kelly Adams |
Renee
Yearling
Username: Reneec
Post Number: 80
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 05:41 pm: |
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Kelly,
THANKYOU!! I have been hoping someone would answer my post!
I shouldnt have the risk of a leathal white foal in the third cross though as the stallion is a splashed white, and was tested negative for the LWO gene. So safe there!! {thank goodness} But i made sure of this before i sent her there.
Well there are a few nice colour possiblilties there... Thanks |
Kelly Lea Adams
Nursing Foal
Username: Kelly_lea
Post Number: 15
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 09:56 pm: |
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Hi Renee,
I was a little worried putting down LW for the paint, because some people don't want to hear that truth, but since I didn't know if the stallion had been tested or not I believed it was better to be truthful than not.
As it turns out you won't get a lethal foal which is nice!
I hope you have easy foaling and the cutest babies!
Kelly Adams |
Renee
Yearling
Username: Reneec
Post Number: 84
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 06:21 pm: |
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Kelly,
I have done a fair bit of research on the overo gene as i have two broodmares and a stallion prospect that carry the gene, so i was very weary as to what stallion i sent the mare to...
Like you say though, better be honest than me have a the horrible suprise of a lw foal at the end of 11months waiting.
Thankyou so much for your reply! |
Kim Winter
Weanling
Username: Clafairy
Post Number: 21
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 01:14 pm: |
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I see alot of posts about the lethal white gene, what is it exactly?
ALso- i have a colour combo Im curious about.
I believe that because all the stallions offspring and relatives were bay, black at the points that my stallion is probably homozygous for black and agouti is this right> but just incase what are the PERCENTAGES of colour chances for my foal if I have a chestnut mare and a homozygous bay stallion and what are they if he is not homozygous... Does that make enough sense to you all to get an answer!: )
Look forward to seeing my options.. |
Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk
Post Number: 169
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 02:53 pm: |
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Kim, a lethal white gene is one that is commonaly seen in a frame overo but can be found in many other color patterns including a solid qh . it is a gene that when a foal gets one from each parent has problems with its intestanal tract, it is normally incomplete and cannot pass manure and will colic/die within the first several hours of life. Something that cannot be fixed, when you determine that a foal is a lethel white baby(if a baby is all white that does not always indicate it is "lethel")there are few examples of babys that survive that are not "lethel" Normally you get a lethel by breeding a overo to overo --normally in the frame overo pattern , but can be found in manys as well.
Can't answer your color question. |
Cathy
Yearling
Username: Cathy
Post Number: 66
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 03:19 pm: |
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If your stallion is homozygous for black and agouti you can only get bay from that cross. If he is not for either gene you can get sorrel, bay or black. |
Kim Winter
Weanling
Username: Clafairy
Post Number: 22
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 05:00 am: |
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Thankyou both -
Kim k, thats really interesting to know- I had never heard of that until I started researching breeding and even then I didnt know what it meant for the foal
Cathy
That was what I had thought from reading other posts but there is so much that can catch you out - Some of the genes have so many combinations!
Heres hoping for a bay filly - I have bets on this : ) |
Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk
Post Number: 173
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 08:28 am: |
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Your welcome Kim, You will find that many will protest the lethel gene that you can only get it breeding the frame overo to a frame overo, but seeing that the breed associations had to start somewhere, there is "Paint" breeding way back into the foundation of the QH--thats where the paints came from . The lethel gene can be found in even a solid horse. The lethel gene is also being discovered to hide in places so it just pops up, alot still needs to be studied. The gene can be tested for , but it is also believed to be one of the genes that produce the color in the paint horses---damned if you do , damned if you don't type thing. For example .... you need not see the color(white) on a horse to know if its got a lethel gene, I had a friend that had a bay breeding stock mare when bred to a frame overo threw a lethel baby.
Your best way to get color in the overos is breeding overo to overo yet you will take the chance of what it produces unless you test for the gene. What most people think is only test the frame overo, again if you are concerned with it test everything as the gene hides and can show up .... |
Gynna Meiller
Weanling
Username: Jw_kings_excalibur
Post Number: 22
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 08:16 am: |
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I have do disagree with Paints coming from foundation Quarter horses. Paint horses have been around LONG before Quarter horses. Granted that there is a lot of QH influence over the last 60 years. This is due to the QH having the SABINO gene and many having to be reg. as Paint horses. If you look into the foundation paint horses they go back to the 1800's and UNKNOWN PAINT horse. Paint horses and Appys have been around a LONG time, much longer than the QH..
The reason a solid or breeding stock paint can carry the LW gene is if it is out of a Frame overo. I know I had one! just because you paint is solid does not mean you are safe. it is always best not to breed a frame overo with a frame overo even if it is solid as the horse can still carry this LW gene. Many folks are breeding the high Sabinos to Frame or Splash so that they can keep the overo pattern and not add the tobiano gene and get a differnt paint patern(tovero). If your horse is out of Overo lines it is always good to get them tested. $50 is worth it if it save you the cost and heart ache of having a LW foal! |
Kim Winter
Weanling
Username: Clafairy
Post Number: 26
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 02:54 pm: |
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How do you tell if a stallion is homozygous? Is there a way to tell from their breeding....? |
Gynna Meiller
Weanling
Username: Jw_kings_excalibur
Post Number: 23
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 03:24 pm: |
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I have heard that with Tobianos you can tell if they are homo if they have "paw prints" in their white. In spring we will see just how true that is as she is bred to our sabino QH stallion. As far as her breedign she is out of straight Tobi and QH lines with no Overos..he last colt was all white exept for his head and a small patch on his flank. But that may just be an ole wives tale. I would suggest gettign tested. they can be homo for color(ie black/wht) but hetro for paint or vise versa...genetics is just soooo much fun...ahhhhhgg |
Dena Smith
Neonate
Username: Maquinna_paints
Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 07:26 pm: |
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I am courious to what you all will come up with for my mare. She is a true black solid B/S paint mare. Her dam was black and her sire was a black and white tobiano. I am breeding her to a Classic Champagne Homozygous (for Tobiano) Tobiano Stallion with Amber eyes. The Stallion owner is awaiting the final color correction from APHA as we speak. When that arrives he will be the first APHA registered homozygous tobiano classic champagne. I checked the records and really there is not one yet that I have found. Anyone else found a an APHA stallion in this color, pattern and homozygous? What color do you think I will get? |
Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk
Post Number: 182
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 01:00 pm: |
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here is a link to apha as to were the paint breed began. http://www.apha.com/breed/history.html
It comes from the
American Paint Stock Horse Association and the American Paint Quarter Horse Association merged in 1965. It is believed that the American Paint Quarter Horse Association came from the AQHA with horses that did not meet requirements for AQHA.
Yes , "spotted horses did come to America in 1915 with Spanish conquidors. But the breed evolved with stock horse requirements that came from the breeding of Quarter horses
To be eligible for registry with the APHA, horses had to come from stock registered with one of four recognized organizations: the American Paint Quarter Horse Association, the American Paint Stock Horse Association, the Jockey Club, or the American Quarter Horse Association. Today, the three recognized organizations are the APHA, the AQHA and the Jockey Club. And even though solid-colored horses with Paint Horse bloodlines are included in the APHA registry as breeding stock, the association maintains color requirements for registration in the Regular Registry |
Jan H (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 68.45.224.165
| | Posted on Monday, January 16, 2006 - 10:11 pm: |
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ok here is a color question for ya. I have a minimally expressed Sabino bay mare (has 2 white stockings just below the hock and 1 white sock up to the fetlock in the front) full blaze white chin. she was bred to a homozygous Tobiano. what can I expect out of this breeding? She also has blue flecks of color in one eye. she has a small white triangle on belly near her udder. I was hoping for a medicine hat...but doubt I can get that much white even tho the stallion is 77% white medicine hat himself. Does the mare being sabino influence how much white the foal will have? here is the mares picture before breeding.
[IMG]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b399/cmpsp1/MyMare.jpg[/IMG] |
Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk
Post Number: 215
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 11:30 am: |
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Jan,
When breeding overo (that is what sabino is considered) to a toby you have high probility of alot of white normally--if you get any. It sounds as if the stallion is a tovero and not a tobiano ? Medicine hat is considered a tovero normally. If we are speaking of the same thing. I have a average colored sabino mare. High white stockings, blaze and bottom lip is white, minimal white spot on her side, breeding her to a frame overo we always get a very white baby.... med hat with flecking of dark color down their back and chest. Never have had a frame overo from her breeding to a frame stallion. I think without figureing percentages as some will do for you that you have a good chance at getting a spotted baby and a sabino one at that. Just my guesses with our expereinces here on our farm
Good luck |
Jan H (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 69.253.11.21
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 01:38 pm: |
|
Thanks KIm, here is the stallion she is bred to, what do you think the foal will be by this pairing?
[IMG]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b399/cmpsp1/86cc6b2f.jpg[/IMG] |
Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk
Post Number: 217
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 03:09 pm: |
|
Jan,
I did a search on him and found the Harris website. They list him as a tobiano, yet looking at his pedigree it lists hims as a tovero as I suspected. You are sure to get some color from your match as he is listed as a homozygous . I am not up to date on how this affects the overo genes that he carries. But would imange that you should get some color from the pair. you have many different color pattern genes so that will throw in some interesting results. You have the sabino, overo, and toby genes , my guess would be that you should have some sort of tovero colored foal providing your mare throws the overo gene, I looked at his offspring and everything is toby, with alot coming out of solid mares. There is one overo listed (which is labeled wrong to my understanding of paints). Toby or tovero should be your outcome. As far as color , thats not my ballgame , there are others that could better tell you what you will get in color. I know that bay or sorrel are good chances. |
Jan H. (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 68.45.224.165
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 17, 2006 - 10:21 pm: |
|
Thanks Kim, in about a month and a half we should get the results. What ever color or pattern the foal is, I will love it and it will be my new riding mount for the rest of its life. To me, temperment and health/conformation is far more important than color, but color is the iceing, and like iceing, it is not important but it sure is sweet to have. I appreciate you taking the time to reply and share your expertise! Your wonderful. Thanks again! |
Karl S. (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 70.118.89.6
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 10:25 pm: |
|
Have a color question, my mare is chestnut with flaxen mane and tail (parents are: m:palomino f: sorrel with small amount of flaxen in mane and tail) so if breed her with a homozygous black stallion what might i expect? |
Jenn
Breeding Stock
Username: Jenn
Post Number: 106
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 11:43 am: |
|
Hi Karl, you may not realize it but you asked a bit of a trick question. If the stud is homo for black, the foal will be a black based color. If your mare carries agouti, that can make the foal bay.(agouti restricts black coloring to the mane, tail, ears tips and lower legs. It does nothing to red.) The big question is the flaxen gene. I have read that flaxen does nothing on black and that it only shows on red when the horse is homozygous for it. I have to admit that I have read a little about flaxen, but have no experience with it.
If what I have read is correct, your foal will either be bay or black.
Here is a webpage that has some color genetic info.
http://www.equinecolor.com/modifiers.html#flaxen |
Alex Abel
Weanling
Username: Paintedhorses
Post Number: 23
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 12:12 pm: |
|
More color questions !!!
We are thinking about breeding our bay/tobiano mare to a buckskin/tovero stallion this year. The mare is homozygous for the tobiano gene, so we will get 100% tobiano or tovero for sure. What are the possible colors for the resulting baby ??
The mares dam is black/white tobiano and her sire is a bay tobiano, homozygous for the black gene stallion.
The sire of the stallion we want to breed to is black/white tobiano out of a grey mare. |
Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk
Post Number: 306
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 12:37 pm: |
|
we were breeding a bay toby to a red dun overo, and normally got a dun/buckskin and a few times got the chestnut. The chestnuts were just as deep bay color without the black mane and tails. All were toveros execpt for 2 out of like 10 babys.
I think that your most likely to get the buckskin,chestnut,bay combos.. Not totally up on color genes so someone else can give maybe better answers , that is what I am guessing from what we got. |
Jenn
Breeding Stock
Username: Jenn
Post Number: 107
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 01:42 pm: |
|
Alex, your mare could be homozygous for black because she has 2 black gene carrying parents. Has she ever had any foals? And if she has, do you know what color the foals were and what color the sire of the foals were?
As for the buckskin stud, same question about foals and color.
If both the mare and stud are heterozygous for black, you could get any color except for gray and any color of roan or dun.
It breaks down statistically like this:
-75% foal will be a black based color / 25% red based color.
-75% foal will recieve agouti (black becomes bay / no change to red) / 25% no agouti as long as both horses are hetero for agouti, if one or both are homo for agouti change 75% to 100%
-50% foal will recieve cream (sorrel=palomino, bay=buckskin, black=smokey black)
You are correct that all foals will be tobiano or tovero. Sorry that I cannot be more specific about that color, but with the black based colors there are a lot of options. Red horses are simpler in that you know a sorrel is homo for red because red is recessive. |
Beverly Outlaw
Yearling
Username: Outlawpaints
Post Number: 100
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 01:52 pm: |
|
Hello. I have a mare that I would like to get some advice on what color babies she might have by this stallion... the mare is the 50/50 bay and white and the stallion is the minimal white..
I know he is homozygous for tobiano... If a horse is homozygous for black does that mean it will always have black foals?
i don't know if my mare is homozygous for black either so I guess it will be a wait and see thing... any info would be great!!!
http://community.webshots.com/photo/2643717050060158556HbEuYw
http://community.webshots.com/photo/2884635740060158556QjVlAE |
Kelly Lea Adams
Weanling
Username: Kelly_lea
Post Number: 27
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 01:59 pm: |
|
Hiya Karl S,
Your mare would produce either bay or black.
Kelly |
Kelly Lea Adams
Weanling
Username: Kelly_lea
Post Number: 28
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 02:07 pm: |
|
Hiya Beverly Outlaw,
If a horse is homozygous for the black gene it just means it will pass on black every time to it's foals. It could be as a black coated foal or something from the bay line, line bay or buckskin, depending on what other genes are in play.
Kelly |
Beverly Outlaw
Breeding Stock
Username: Outlawpaints
Post Number: 101
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 02:32 pm: |
|
Thanks Kelly.. this stallion has passed on mostly bays but has had some blacks or mahogany bays.. So is there a good chance for a black with this cross? |
Kelly Lea Adams
Weanling
Username: Kelly_lea
Post Number: 29
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 03:57 pm: |
|
I'd say there's about 50% chance for black or bay since we don't know if your mare carries the agouti gene or not.
However, those bay foals give me pause. He should be about 50/50 with bays and blacks perhaps even higher with the amount of black foals. I'd ask them where they got the stallion tested. If it's at http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/ then agouti is part of their red factor test and they will have results for it.
If the stallion carries even one agouti gene he is actually a bay and not a black. So if you're hoping for a black foal you might want to check into that and possibly have your own mare tested (unless she's obviously a bay).
I hope this helped some!
Kelly |
Jenn
Breeding Stock
Username: Jenn
Post Number: 108
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 04:24 pm: |
|
Kelly, you are correct about Beverlys chances being 50/50, although I do have to disagree with you about the homo stalions offspring should all be 50/50 bay/black. Unless the stallion is a bay he doesn't carry agouti, and therefore doesn't have the genes to make a bay himself. The Mares that he is bred to have to carry the agouti gene to turn the black base to bay (as in Beverys case). Therefore the quantity of bay offspring the stallion has is completely dependent on the genes of the mares he is bred to. We know that Beverly's mare definately carries agouti because she is bay. We don't know if Beverly's mare is homo or hetero for agouti. If the mare is homo for agouti, she can only produce a bay foal when crossed to a homo for black stud.
Something that makes eqine color genetics confusing is that a red and black are only base colors. The term "homozygous for black" only means "cannot produce red" it does not mean that the end color of all foals will be black. There are many color modifying genes that change the black base to colors like bay, buckskin, grullo, dun, grey, etc. A horse only stays black if there are no color modifiers (except cream) in their genetic equation. The only sure fire way to produce a "black" horse is to breed 2 homozygous for black and "black" colored horses together.
I hope this help clear thing up. |
Kelly Lea Adams
Weanling
Username: Kelly_lea
Post Number: 30
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 04:53 pm: |
|
Beverly, my apologies, I was only responding to the question asked of a homogyzous black stallion, I did not take your mare into account as she was not part of the question itself. I also should have looked at the pictures provided (was in a hurry to get out the door and wanted to make it simple lol).
I can see both stallion and mare are bay now, however, that still doesn't change the answer to the question I gave you, it's still 50% either way.
You said the stallion has produced some black foals, now providing that those foals have been correctly colour identified it is obvious the stallion is NOT homozygous for the agouti gene. Which means he'll approximately produce 50% bay, 50% black (not taking the mares he's bred to into account!). If he is homzygous for the black gene he will always produce a foal carrying the black gene in one form or another regardless of what colour the mare may be.
If the stallion has produced any foals without black he is not homozygous for the black gene (the same applies to the mare). However, if he's been bred to mares carrying the black gene themselves, it'll be harder to predict whether he is or not without testing.
You can still produce a reasonable guess if he has been bred to at least 10 non-black gened mares and all have gone on to produce a foal with black (black/bay/buckskin). Then it would be safe to assume he's possibily homozygous for the black gene.
Either way without testing you can never be 100% sure. And on top of that, no one ever told the horses the percentages. Just keep in mind all percents are rough and an industry standard.
Now I hope this clears up any confusion generated by my previous post.
Kelly |
Jenn
Breeding Stock
Username: Jenn
Post Number: 109
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 06:24 pm: |
|
I had not previously realized the stallion was bay, Beverly had said her mare was bay I just assumed they were both pictures of her mare. Now that I look again both pictures were of the same side of different horses (oopps, sorry Beverly). Since both horses are bays they each carry at least one copy of agouti. If they are both hetero for agouti the chances of getting a bay are 75% and 25% for black. If one of them is homo for agouti it changes to 100% bay. But as Kelly said the horses don't listen to numbers. |
Kelly Lea Adams
Weanling
Username: Kelly_lea
Post Number: 31
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 09:52 pm: |
|
You're right Jenn, she should expect a higher chance of a bay. However, if she has MY luck she'd end up with a sorrel even if the stallion/mare was homozygous for the black gene! lol
But I wasn't sure if Beverly would appreciate my sense of humour if I told her to prepare herself for a sorrel. lol |
Jenn
Breeding Stock
Username: Jenn
Post Number: 110
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 11:45 pm: |
|
Kelly, your luck sounds like mine. Our stud is a tobiano and has a chance of being homozygous (his sire and dam are both toby), this year we bred him to 5 mares, 2 tobiano paints and 3 solid QH. Just wait, this spring I will probably have all solid foals.
Oh well, healthy is the important part. Color is just icing. |
Beverly Outlaw
Breeding Stock
Username: Outlawpaints
Post Number: 102
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 11:33 am: |
|
Thanks everyone! I mainly want a healthy foal.. Color is just the icing on the cake... Even though I would love my black and white filly or a bucksin! LOL. Probably get a bay, but that is ok too! Thanks again |
melissa
Yearling
Username: Mbgirl
Post Number: 85
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 02:11 pm: |
|
Beverly,
I think you would love a bay filly or colt. We wanted a sorrel filly last year and got my bay and white tobiano colt. I notice the foal we want is usually not want we get. I wishing for a filly this year and paint if possible, but don't care has long as it is healthy.The reason I was wanted a filly, because children want one as well. Last year my grandmother pass away (we were close). My grandmother birthday is in April the month my foal was born. We wanted it to be sorrel, because she loved red and a filly to name after her MAYBE this year.See my bay and white colt Little Man at www.photobucket.com/albums/e329/MBhorses
TAKE CARE,
MELISSA |
Beverly Outlaw
Breeding Stock
Username: Outlawpaints
Post Number: 103
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 10:49 am: |
|
Hi Melissa,
I would love either one, but would really love to have a filly because we have already had 2 colts. I know the feeling about not getting what you want always. LOL.
Sorry to hear about your Grandmother. Prayers that even though it has been a while, your pain will be easier to deal with each day.
Hopefully you will get your sorrel and white filly this year. And Little Man s absolutely gorgeous.. so are the other horses.
prayers and well wishes,
Beverly |
Kelly Lea Adams
Weanling
Username: Kelly_lea
Post Number: 32
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, February 18, 2006 - 09:50 pm: |
|
Hey Jenn, does your stallion have freckles or as some call them paw prints? If he does you can pretty much bet he's homozygous. That's one indicator people use, if they don't have the freckles/paw prints they usually aren't homozygous.
Also, the same site I gave Beverly to check for the stallion's/mare's red factor/agouti test also tests for Tobiano. I know some other places that do and they are usually cheaper but only check for one tobiano factor, UC Davis checks for two different factors in the same test. I don't believe the test is any more than $50 US dollars and I think it only requires rooted hair samples and probably a picture (I could be mistaken about that!). Anyways, just thought I'd pass that on.
Kelly |
Raven (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 65.92.100.57
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 06:47 am: |
|
I have a flea-bitten grey mare bred to a black bay stud. This same combination has produced a brown before. The mare has produced two previous greys and chesnut, sorrel and bay from different studs. The mares parents are sire sorrel, dam grey. Does this mean she carries the red factor?
Her one grey was born a chestnut with flaxen mane and tail turned steel grey with black mane and tail. |
Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk
Post Number: 334
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 06:49 am: |
|
greys are normally born one color (thier base color) and then they turn. |
Raven (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 65.92.100.57
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 04:51 pm: |
|
But I do not know what her base color is. Would it be red? Since her dam is a grey and sire is a sorrel.Dam's dam sorrel, dams sire grey. Sires dam a grey and sires sire a chestnut.
Can anyone tell me what base color she is and what chance do I have with her being bred to a black bay?
Thank you |
Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk
Post Number: 342
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 06:28 pm: |
|
Raven,
that would be my somewhat educated guess ! I thought that you had a baby and was wonder what to register it as ... I was telling you to register it its base color and then change it if you see that it is turning grey but see not signs as a foal. Like your grey mare has a foal, the foals not showing signs of grey now , what do you register it as, What color does the foal look ?
I believe you have a 50 % chance of a grey .
Kim |
Raven (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 65.92.100.57
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 08:06 pm: |
|
No, baby is due anyday now but I was just wondering what my color chances are from this cross. I'm just trying to understand this color genetics thing. I gather than she is a red factor, but what is a black bay.....black factor?
I understand that greys are born with a base color and turn grey later on. Does this grey horse, carry the augoti(sp) gene to make them turn grey? What about a black bay what gene does he carry to make him a bay? |
Kelly Lea Adams
Weanling
Username: Kelly_lea
Post Number: 33
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 03:07 pm: |
|
Hiya Raven,
You ask a question that truly can't be answered in a few lines or less. However, I'll give it a shot!
Think of grey like frosting on a cake, you could have a chocolate cake with vanilla icing, or say a strawberry cake with vanilla icing. Each grey horse is born with it's base coat colour. It could be palomino, black, bay, sorrel, etc, when it's born. But later, if it received a grey gene from it's dam/sire it starts turning grey, but the base coat is still there in a manner of speaking, although you may have to go gene hunting to find it now.
Given that you have a strong line of reds (sorrel/chestnut) in your mare's breeding, I'd say she most definitely carries at least one red gene, and obviously, one grey gene. But, that still doesn't tell us her complete gene make up, only a test can do that for sure.
A bay can produce, without taking into account the horse it's bred to: sorrel/chestnut, bay, black. Those are the combinations it alone can produce, providing it's not homozygous for any gene.
Agouti is a gene that restricts black only to the points if the horse is carrying the black gene. Like bays and buckskins, black mane, tail and legs, those are refered to as points. However, agouti doesn't just follow the black gene, it can be in any coloured horse except those who are black or have a black base coat, like black, smoky black and grullo among some. If a 'black' horse carries the agouti gene, it is genetically a bay and shouldn't be called black.
I would say given her past foal history and the fact that she's never had a black foal that she'll probably produce you a sorrel/chestnut or a bay. I say that because she hasn't produced a black foal which makes me suspect she might be homozygous for the agouti gene herself.
I won't add in brown, because genetically there's no such colour in horses. A brown is a bay, same as black-bay.
I will give you a simple gene chart here to show you a bay's genetics.
Ee Aa - One black gene(E), one red gene (e), one agouti gene (A), no agouti gene (a). Will pass on either of those gene's 50% of the time.
Ee AA - One black gene (E), one red gene (e), TWO agouti genes (AA) and therefore homozygous for it. Which means it'll pass one copy of agouti 100% of the time and you will never get a black foal, even if it looks black.
EE Aa - TWO black genes, homozygous for black and will pass one black gene on to every single foal it produces, one agouti gene (A), no agouti gene (a).
EE AA - TWO black genes (EE), TWO agouti genes (AA). This is known as a homozygous bay. It will always produce a bay based foal. Like bays and buckskins (when bred to a horse with a creme gene). It will *always* pass on Ee Aa with every single foal it produces, regardless of the colour of the horse it's bred to.
Now if we cross your mare with this bay stallion, these are the possibilities they could have, assuming neither is homozygous for any gene.
Bay x sorrel = sorrel/chestnut, bay, black. I strongly suspect the black is a longshot in your case, but I will still leave it in there.
I suggest seeing if you can get your hands on some equine colour genetic books because this is truly like being in school! lol
There have been some mentioned throughout this site that are useful, although some are rather dated and much more is known about equine colour genetics now but they can still be a stepping stone to understanding how colour is distributed in horses.
I hope I haven't confused you more and you find at least some of this useful!
Kelly |
Kelly Lea Adams
Weanling
Username: Kelly_lea
Post Number: 34
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 03:14 pm: |
|
Oops, I forgot to add in your grey gene there!
Bay x grey = sorrel/chestnut, black, bay, sorrel/chestnut-grey, black-grey, and finally bay-grey. The first part of the greys represents the base coat colour. There, NOW that's correct! lol
Kelly |
melissa
Yearling
Username: Mbgirl
Post Number: 99
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 03:21 pm: |
|
Kelly,
Could you look at my horses DNA results on the DNA question on this board. Does the DNA test show colors? Let me know.
thanks melissa |
Jenn
Breeding Stock
Username: Jenn
Post Number: 116
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 03:42 pm: |
|
Hi Kelly, earlier you had asked if our Boy had pawprints, the answer is I am not sure. He has one little spot so it could go either way. This spring when foals arrive it will start to answer a lot of questions. |
Kelly Lea Adams
Weanling
Username: Kelly_lea
Post Number: 35
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 03:52 pm: |
|
Hiya Melissa,
Sorry there's definitely no colour markers there or LW markers. Those wouldn't show up on a DNA test.
Maybe there's someone who knows what all of those mean. My mares were DNA'd also, and it looks like childrens scribble to me!!! lol
If you want me to hazard a guess, I'd say like humans those are similar the same genetic markers humans are tested by. We have 14 genetic markers they tend to use to identify us and I suspect they tend to use something similar in horses. I also suspect one might be his bloody type.
Sorry, I wish I could help you more, but being DNA'd is a seperate test from colour tests.
Kelly |
Kelly Lea Adams
Weanling
Username: Kelly_lea
Post Number: 36
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 03:54 pm: |
|
EEEK! That one sentence should read:
"I also suspect one might be his blood type."
Someone hand me another coffee please! lol
Kelly |
Kelly Lea Adams
Weanling
Username: Kelly_lea
Post Number: 37
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 03:58 pm: |
|
Darn! I was hoping it would give you some good news if he had some paw prints on him! 
Oh well, I'll keep my fingers crossed for you Jenn and hope that he is!!!
Kelly |
Jenn
Breeding Stock
Username: Jenn
Post Number: 118
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 05:04 pm: |
|
Thanks Kelly. I love him to bits regardless of if he is homozygous or not. My gray tobiano mare has some spots that look like paw prints but she is definately not homozygous, her dam was a QH. Her spots are difficult to see because she is a silvery gray now. |
Raven (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 67.70.117.192
| | Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 12:16 pm: |
|
Thanks Kelly. It was helpfull but still little confussed. Am I correct on saying a black bay would be Ee Aa? I'm saying black bay because he looks black but in certain light or season you can see the bay markings or points, if you may. If I can figure out how to add his picture I will add it and you can see for yourself.
Thank you again for your explanation it gave me some clue as to what I am expecting. |
Kelly Lea Adams
Weanling
Username: Kelly_lea
Post Number: 38
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 01:44 pm: |
|
Hiya Raven,
A black-bay (same with browns) is just a bay with a smutty/sooty extension that shows more black in their coat. It doesn't change the fact that it's genetically a bay.
And all bays are a *minimum* of Ee Aa unless testing proves otherwise. But a bay may also be any of the above examples I gave.
I hope that helps some. |
Raven (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 67.70.117.192
| | Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 03:56 pm: |
|
Kelly,
Thank you very much. Greatly appreciated.
Getting it now.
I'll let you know what she ends up with when the foal decided to grace its presents on this earth. |
melissa
Breeding Stock
Username: Mbgirl
Post Number: 105
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 08:01 pm: |
|
Hello,
EVERYONE CHECK OUT THIS WEB SITE.
www.horsetesting.com
It has alot of good things on it.
It will color guess your foal.You can get test done as well.
THANKS MELISSA |
melissa
Breeding Stock
Username: Mbgirl
Post Number: 106
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 23, 2006 - 09:18 pm: |
|
Hello,
I notice Gray is not listed on the site I gave you all. www.horsetesting.com
What color is gray suppose to be listed as?This site got my mares first three foals right.
THANKS MELISSA |
Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk
Post Number: 353
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 03:34 am: |
|
Probabally as a base color , greys have a base color to start with , bay, blacks a very common , so the site just won't give you the info on getting the grey , which i believe is close to 50 % , you suppose to have , and should have a grey parent. |
Jenn
Breeding Stock
Username: Jenn
Post Number: 122
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 10:25 am: |
|
Here is the confusing thing about gray, Gray shouldn't actually be considered a single color. It would be like any horse with the cream gene being called a "cream" horse. A horse has to have a base color, and that could be any color in the spectrum, and the gray gene will progressively turn hairs white until all of the hair on the horse is white. Just like with any other gene, when a horse carries it in its heterozygous form there is a 50% chance of passing it on to each offspring. If homozygous, 100%. Gray is not known to be reccesive and so it will show...eventually. |
melissa
Breeding Stock
Username: Mbgirl
Post Number: 115
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 10:21 am: |
|
Hello,
If I breed my black and white tobiano mare to a gray and white overo what colors patterns could I get.The dam parents were both black and white tobiano.The sire's parents were sire was chestnut overo and the dam was gray tobiano.
THANK YOU FOR YOU HELP,
Melissa |
melissa
Breeding Stock
Username: Mbgirl
Post Number: 116
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 10:25 am: |
|
Hello,
I am trying to decide which stud to breed to my mare for 2006. If I breed my black and white tobiano mare to a palomino tobiano what color patterns could I get? The mare's parents were both black and white tobiano. The stud's sire was a chestnut tobiano and the dam was a solid palomino.
THANK YOU
melissa |
melissa
Breeding Stock
Username: Mbgirl
Post Number: 117
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 10:26 am: |
|
Hello,
Also what color would a line back dun appaloosa breed to a bay and white tobiano stud produce?The stud is mostly homozygous for the tobiano gene.
THANKS
melissa |
Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk
Post Number: 398
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 10:33 am: |
|
Melissa , can I ask why you would want to cross a appy and a paint ? Are they being registered in the appy associaiton like that ? |
melissa
Breeding Stock
Username: Mbgirl
Post Number: 118
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 01:36 pm: |
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Kim,
I don't know if you can register a appaloosa and a paint. I was told you can with pintoloosa or something like that. I was just wondering what color we could get. Who knows it might turn out to be a great looking foal. The appaloosa is my daughter horse and the bay and white tobiano is my horse. We were just wondering, both of them are great horses.If my bay and white is homozygous for tobiano gene I was told it would be a tobiano foal. This mare is a line back dun with very little spots.If you saw her from the pasture you wouldn't know she is appaloosa. A friend of mine raise appaloosa, said she has very little spots. Who knows it might be a very ugly foal, but to me they are all cute. Has anyone ever breed these two type of horses before?This could be a new breed of horse.!!!!
THANKS melissa |
Kim k
Breeding Stock
Username: Kimk
Post Number: 405
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 01:48 pm: |
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oh,ok! I was just curious--if there was a reason, other than wanting to try it!
guessing from what have bred(red dun x bay toby)
you have a high chance of buckskin or chestnut foal with a toby pattern.
don't know what differences the red or agouti gene would put in there
don't know what the appy pattern would play, maybe give it the apperance of a sabino ?? with toby spots !
could be different |
Kelly Lea Adams
Weanling
Username: Kelly_lea
Post Number: 39
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 02:52 pm: |
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Melissa, it's called a Pintaloosa. There's several on the internet if you do a search for them.
You can register them here:
http://www.spottedhorseregistry.com/
Kelly |
Sara B
Neonate
Username: Countercanter
Post Number: 8
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Friday, March 03, 2006 - 03:51 pm: |
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quote: "Also what color would a line back dun appaloosa breed to a bay and white tobiano stud produce?The stud is mostly homozygous for the tobiano gene. "
You could get:
black
bay
chestnut
grullo
bay dun
red dun
each of those colors with or without appaloosa characteristics, and with or without the tobiano pattern.
You can not be mostly homozygous for something - the only choices are homozygous or heterozygous (or not a carrier at all). If the stud is homozygous tobiano he will pass that pattern on 100% of the time. If he is heterozygous there is a 50/50 chance. |
Raven (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 65.92.103.219
| | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 08:46 pm: |
|
Okay, I have a question? You all have probably seem my foal by now and he is bay. His legs are a mousey gray underbelly light, black muzzle that turns lighter color and then the bay also he has on the outside of his eyes a lighter bay color. Around his fetlock they are black. Question now will this class him as turning grey later or not? I remember seeing this quote:
For example: Bay foals that will not grey usually have light legs that shed out black with the first foal coat shedding. But a Bay foal that will grey usually has black legs at birth.
And was wondering if that is what it meant by being born with black legs. Since his is black at the bottom and a mousey grey at the top? Or am I just hopeing to much for him to turn grey. |
Heather Kutyba
Yearling
Username: Heatherck11
Post Number: 84
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 10:53 pm: |
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Heya Raven,
Congrats again on your colt!
Him being bay (regardless of leg color) now means little when interpretting his future color. He will be bay or grey.
Since greys are highly dominant, I'd put big bets on him going grey.
If/when he goes grey, it will most likely be evident when he sheds out his foal coat.
A friends grey mare foaled out a bay colt. A REALLY deep bay colt, and he shed out to grey. I swore up and down that he wouldn't.
I'm partial to the steel or rose greys, so I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. |
Raven (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 67.71.65.28
| | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 05:51 am: |
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Hey Heather, A nice steel grey would be WONDERFUL! Cross those fingers tightly! |
Kris Moos
Breeding Stock
Username: Kris
Post Number: 216
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 06:25 am: |
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mousy grey usually indicates black upon shedding of their foal coat, my dun filly had mousy colored legs and even her dorsal stripe and wither cross and neck shadows were a mousy colored. the lighter color around hte eyes USUally indicats the foal coat shedding into that color. Now a summer coat or fall coat could change again, usually a shade of new coat after the foal coat. usually by yearling coat you know their color...unless grey....that sometimes can wait a year or two or three!
he is beautiful raven! |
Alex Coleman
Neonate
Username: Alex_c
Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 10:08 pm: |
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Does anyone have an idea of what the resulting foal color will/could be from the mating of my smoky black mare to a blue roan stallion. The stud has a bald face and two hind stockings, which came from his sire and seem to be prevalent on other foals from the same sire. This foal will be the first from the stallion, and I am curious if maybe the foal could be smoky black roan, and what that would look like. |
Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy
Post Number: 124
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 11:43 pm: |
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Alex this is going with what you provided. If you knew the color of the parents of both horses it would help alot.
We know the mare has at least one black gene and one cream gene. She could have a red gene. Same with the stallion. He has at least one black gene and a roan gene. Sounds like he has the splash and/or sabino gene.
If neither of them is homozygous for black you can get black, smokey black, sorrel, palomino, and any of these colors can be roan with or with out the splash or sabino gene.
You have a very big color combination possible. Good Luck
(Message edited by cathy on April 09, 2006) |
Alex Coleman
Neonate
Username: Alex_c
Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 02:40 pm: |
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Thanks Cathy. I know the colors of the mares sire and dam, cremello and black. And I know the color of the stallions sire, brown roan. I am pretty sure he carries the sabino gene, since most of the foals I have seen that share the same sire as he (TWH Generator's Silver Dollar) have a bald face and two hind stockings, and are roan. The combination of my mares bloodlines and this stallions, if it is as great as the barn manager where I have bought the breeding from says it is, should result in a foal with 6-8 WGC's pretty close on it's papers, so I guess I should just hope for a healthy foal, and if it has color that's just an added bonus. |
Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy
Post Number: 125
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 11, 2006 - 02:59 pm: |
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Alex is the stallion a true roan? The reason I ask is that the sabino gene gives body roaning but it is not the same as the roan gene. There are a few true roans in the TWH breed but most are sabinos with body roaning which there are alot of in the breed.
Since the dam has a cremello parent she does carry the red gene so the sorrel and palomino colors are possible. I love sabinos. I have a mare that gives us alot of color every year. She is 22 this year and I'm trying to decide if I want to breed her one last time. |
phil mcgrowling
Neonate
Username: Liberty
Post Number: 1
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 03:37 pm: |
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I have a smoky black quarter horse mare whose last baby was a buckskin when bred to a bay and her other baby was a chestnut when bred to a black and white paint. Now i am breeding her to a red dun quarter hose stallion what is the possibility of getting a grullo or any other color |
Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy
Post Number: 170
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 07:38 pm: |
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Phil your mare has one black and one red gene, so you have a 50/50 chance of red or black base. She also has a cream gene so each of those colors has 50% of being a dilute.
We know the sire has at least one dun gene so each of the base colors has at least 50% chance of being dun.
That means you can get chesnut, black, smokey black, palomino, and if the stallion has the agouti gene you can also get buckskin and bay. Then on top of those colors you can add the dun gene.
It looks like you can possibly get about every color of the rainbow. |
Alexandra
Neonate
Username: Minihooves
Post Number: 1
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Monday, June 19, 2006 - 05:24 am: |
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I am new to this board, so, I hope you'll all be easy on me! LOL! :*)
I am just dying to share with other horse lovers about my new Miniature Arenosa Shetland filly who was born 4 weeks ago. Her dam is a Miniature chestnut appaloosa and her sire is a Mini Arenosa Shetland palomino pinto .... Anyway, this filly turned out to be a buckskin appaloosa with green blue eyes! I don't see any pinto markings yet but Im sure they are hiding somewhere. Im not sure if she'd be a buckskin-dun-pintoloosa or just a buckskin pintoloosa ... she has leg stripes, a dorsal stripe & all her points are black. She's basically a buckskin but w/an Appy blanket on her butt filled with little appy spots!
Im wondering if anyone is aware of any registries for pintoloosa's?
Im really excited about her color .... Ive only seen them in the miniature horse books!
Her eyes being such a beautiful blue/green is just an extra added bonus! She's soooo gorgeous! :*)
I'd like to get her registered with at least one other registry besides the AMHR ... I don't think she can be in the PtHA cuz of the Appy markings (I dont think they like that much!) LOL!
Anyway, thank you for your time and if you have any thoughts or questions please feel free to comment.
Thank you again! |
RL
Neonate
Username: Angelheartz
Post Number: 1
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, July 29, 2006 - 03:36 pm: |
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Gold Champagne question. We want to breed our
bay tobiano mare to a gold champagne. What will the cross produce? |
Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady
Post Number: 141
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 03:07 pm: |
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RL:
A bay cross with a gold champagne will usually give you an Amber Champagne foal.
You could also get a bay, and throw an occasional champagne, black, gold champagne, and chestnut into the mix.
Deb |
RL
Neonate
Username: Angelheartz
Post Number: 2
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 05:55 pm: |
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Thanks Debbie, she is a mahogany tri-colored bay tobiano. Her grandsire is dominate for the black gene. Will this throw a crosshair when I breed her to the gold champagne? Thanks again, these
genetics get confusing sometimes. |
Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady
Post Number: 142
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 09:17 pm: |
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A bay is actually a black horse as well, just she is influenced by the agouti gene, which limits her black to the points (tail, ears etc). The genetics are confusing, and are still confusing to me, which is why you could get a black, a champagne, or a chestnut depending on how the genes fall. Her grandsire being dominate or homozygous for black, gave her father a black gene, but I have no info on the grand damn, or the colors of the sire and dam of the bay. Most times you will get an Amber Champagne foal from the cross you describe, but as I said before, you can also get a bay, with a lesser percentage of champagne, black, gold champagne or even a chestnut.
Say for example, the grandsire and grand damn were both homozygous black, then the sire would be homozygous for black as well since both would give an E (black) to the sire.
Say that the mare of the bay was chestnut coming from a black and a chestnut, or even two blacks not homozygous for black, then you have a chance of the black, or the chestnut when crossed with the bay, depending on whether she throws an agouti gene, which would give you the bay.
Half the fun of trying to figure out what colors you can get is the waiting to see if you guessed right. As is often said, a good horse is never a bad color
Deb |
RL
Neonate
Username: Angelheartz
Post Number: 3
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 10:30 pm: |
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Her dam was a blood bay, her sire was a black/white tobiano, and we ended up with a tricolored bay tobiano. I do not know what color her dam's parents were. I just know of her sire and grandsires background. THanks again, and as you said, half the fun is waiting to see what happens. |
RL
Neonate
Username: Angelheartz
Post Number: 4
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2006 - 10:41 pm: |
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I've got one more question, our other mare is a dark bay (almost chocolate) tobiano her sire has the dominate black (blk/white/tobi) her dam is a black and white tobi, we are trying for a white, or cremello foal. What are the chances of breeding her to a white roan. He is completely white with a few ink spots here and there. What will that produce. Thanks..this site has been very educational for me. |
Heather Kutyba
Breeding Stock
Username: Heatherck11
Post Number: 290
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Monday, July 31, 2006 - 01:04 am: |
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RL,
I'm no genetic color guru! Wish I was...got the main jist of things though.
So you have a
Mare: Dark bay(brown?) tobiano
wanting to breed to a roan...i am unfamiliar as to what you consider a "white roan"..would need a pic to understand further.
want to get a: cremello/white
This combination has a 0% chance of cremello offspring . |
Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady
Post Number: 143
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 04:24 pm: |
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a cremello foal would have to come from two parents that have two creme genes each.. A cremello in particular is a red based dilute... by red base I mean chestnut diluted by one creme gene is a palomino, and palomino diluted by a creme gene is a cremello.
Similarly, a bay diluted by one creme gene is a buckskin, and a buckskin diluted by one creme gene is a perlino ( black based horse )
Therefore, you would have to breed two creme gened horses such as, a buckskin and palomino, a creme and buckskin, a perlino and a creme, etc. to get a chance of a creme foal.
I say a chance because unless you cross two cremellos or two perlinos, you may get a bucksin, palomino or chestnut or smokey black out of some of those crosses since the buckskin has a 50% chance of throwing a creme gene, as does a palomino.
From what I understand about white horses, all white horses are heterozygous, since homozygous forms of white would be lethals...which means , in the heterozysoug form, white horses are capable of producing colored foals. Therefore, theres no guarantee that breeding to a white horse is going to give you a white foal :P
Deb |
Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy
Post Number: 197
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2006 - 09:04 pm: |
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Debbie a cremello can come from parents that only have one cream gene each. It is not necessary for them each to have 2 cream genes as you posted. |
Heather Kutyba
Breeding Stock
Username: Heatherck11
Post Number: 293
Registered: 01-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2006 - 12:50 am: |
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The only combination I remember specifically off hand regarding cremellos is:
Palomino X Palomino =
50% Palomino, 25% Cremello, 25% sorrel |
Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady
Post Number: 144
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2006 - 02:12 pm: |
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****Therefore, you would have to breed two creme gened horses such as, a buckskin and palomino, a creme and buckskin, a perlino and a creme, etc. to get a chance of a creme foal. ***
As I posted above, this will give you a POSSIBILITY of a cremello or perlino, but for a definite cremello or perlino, you would have to breed two horses with two creme genes each, such as two cremellos or two perlinos. ( which is the point I was trying to make, as RL stated she was trying for a cremello foal, not a possibility of one.) |
