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Bay and sorrel

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » Bay and sorrel « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

singingpines
Posted From: 64.33.145.132
Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 04:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i had my bay mare bred to a sorrel stud the bay mare was sired by a buckskin stud and a bay mare. The stud was sired by a sorrel stud and a gray mare.
What are possible outcomes for a foal?
 

Sandy
Posted From: 4.228.252.28
Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 07:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

#1- If the stud you bred to was not gray, there is no chance for gray.

#2- If your bay mare did indeed receive a creme gene from her buckskin sire, and is therefore a sooty buckskin instead of bay, your chances are
a) black/smokey black
b) bay
c) palomino
d) buckskin
e) chestnut/sorrel

#3- If your mare is a true bay without any creme dilution and she is not a homozygous bay the chances are:
a) bay
b) chestnut/sorrel

#4- If the mare is a homozygous bay the chances are:
a) bay
b) black (slight possibility)s

As you can see, there are quite a few different variables when you don't know for sure whether the horse is indeed a bay and if a true bay, whether or not she is homozygous.

The only way to know for sure is to have her genetically tested, or with breeding her to different colors of stallions and seeing what the outcomes are.
 

Cathy
Posted From: 65.54.98.143
Posted on Monday, August 30, 2004 - 11:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

# 3 above: If she is heterozygous for agouti, and bred to a sorrel that is not homozygous for agouti she can have black, bay, & sorrel.
#4 above: If the mare is homozygous for the agouti gene there is no possibility for a black offspring. The only color offspring would be bay and sorrel. Cathy
 

singingpines
Posted From: 64.33.145.160
Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 12:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My mare foaled a colt the was born bay and shed out black. LOL color genetics confuse me
 

Cathy
Posted From: 65.54.98.143
Posted on Tuesday, August 31, 2004 - 02:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a 4 month old colt right now that was born a stricking bright red sabino bay. He is shedding out to look like a black sabino. His sire had the sooty gene which is what he carries, and is making him shed out so dark to look black. Cathy
 

horselady
Posted From: 67.70.68.245
Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 09:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a homozygous tobiano dark bay and white mare and am thinking of breeding her to a homo black tobiano. Would I get a bay or dun or possibly black from that combo?
 

horselady
Posted From: 67.70.68.245
Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 09:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

p.s. Her dam was dark brown seal and white, and her sire was a homo buckskin tobiano.
 

horselady
Posted From: 67.70.68.245
Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 09:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What does A/B informative for the tobiano gene mean?
 

Cathy
Posted From: 65.54.98.140
Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 10:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is the bay homozygous for black or agouti or both? Cathy
 

horselady
Posted From: 64.230.182.9
Posted on Friday, November 26, 2004 - 02:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was told by the breeder that the bay is homozygous for tobiano, has one black gene and one red gene, and either one or two modifier bay genes. If she has one modifier bay gene, her changes are equal for black, bay or chestnut, while if she has one bay modifier she will never have a black foal. She is bred to a blonde sorrel foundation QH ( homozygous flaxen gene) whose parents were both dark chestnuts. Her own father was a buckskin paint, while her mother was a dark bay.
 

horselady
Posted From: 64.230.182.9
Posted on Friday, November 26, 2004 - 02:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

correction: IF she has two bay modifiers she will never have a black foal.
 

Sandy
Posted From: 4.227.172.224
Posted on Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 12:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would say that you have a 50% chance of getting a bay and a 50% chance of getting a chestnut with this breeding.
You will not get a dun because the dun factor isn't present in either horse.

The stallion can only pass on a chestnut(red) gene, because both of his parent's were chestnut, so he got a double dose of chestnut.
Whereas your mare has one black gene and one red gene, it's going to depend on which one she has decided to pass. If she has passed on her red gene, you will get a red foal, if she has passed on her black gene, you will more than likely get a bay. Of course this bay could be so dark as to look black.
Then you throw in the homo tobiano on top of that, and you're going to get paint characteristics too.
I specifically breed for black and whites myself (Appaloosas), so the whole ordeal of trying to produce black/bay horses is quite interesting to me. I am very curious to see what you get out of this combination. I myself stay away from breeding to chestnut/flaxen horses as it increases my chances of never having a chestnut foal. The only time I breed to chestnut is if I'm going for a dilute. I did breed my buckskin stallion to a chestnut mare this year in hopes of a palomino. But, we'll have to see.
 

horselady
Posted From: 67.71.155.215
Posted on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 04:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Sandy; When I bought the mare I didnt know she was even pregnant. The vet who checked her last summer said she hadnt taken. I did have her vet checked before she came up from PA and surprise surprise.. she was 5 1/2 months pregnant. I wouldnt have bred to a chestnut as chestnut wasnt what I wanted in a foal, but now it might be what I get. I was planning on breeding her to a homo buckskin in the spring. I can still do that, but it will have to wait til June instead as this foal is due May 12th.

With this mare having a buckskin dad and dark dark bay mom, would have lean her more towards passing the black gene do you think?
 

Sandy
Posted From: 4.228.165.34
Posted on Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 06:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would say that she probably has a good chance of passing the Agouti gene. Which will limit the black to the points only which would give you a bay if you don't get a chestnut. But with her having one red gene and one black gene, it's really a 50/50 shot. And not knowing whether or not she is homo for bay (Agouti), it's really hard to say.
Honestly, when you're breeding a chestnut it's always a 50/50 chance of getting a chestnut, unless of course the non-chestnut horse it is bred to is homozygous for black or bay. Or if the chestnut horse is bred to a cremello, which will result in palomino 100% of the time.

For instance, I bred my black stallion to the same chestnut mare twice. The mare's sire was chestnut, her dam was black. I do not know what colors the stallion's parents were. One of the resulting foals was a deep red chestnut, the other was born a dark bay and shed off to a black. So the 50/50 really proved itself in that mix.
Now, when you breed your mare to the buckskin, there are a few different things you could get depending on which color gene each horse passes.

If your mare passes her red gene and the stallion passes his creme gene, and if your mare ISN'T homo for Agouti, then you will get a palomino. If she IS homo for Agouti, you should get a buckskin. But if the buckskin passes his black, and your mare passes her black, you should get a black. And of course you always have the chance of getting a bay with that mix too.
Just think, you only have 5 1/2 months to wait! (I'm just kidding) I know how nuts waiting can make a person :-)
 

horselady
Posted From: 67.71.155.215
Posted on Monday, November 29, 2004 - 08:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Morning Sandy;

My Bay mare arrived Friday night from PA. I am so excited and relieved to finally have her up to her new home in Canada.

The breeder had the mare tested for homozygosity which turned out TT, but was not tested for black, or agouti or anything else according to the paperwork that came with her.

Anyway, she made the 8 hour trip with no problems despite a snowstorm that delayed the transporter over two hours between Watertown and Syracuse NY. and when I saw her in the stall she was happily munching hay and nickered a happy hello to us. :-)

The five and a half month wait will be torture, and I have another mare due in July, who is a breeding stock sorrel bred to a homozygous black and white stud. = he throws mostly chestnuts, so I think that one will be a chestnut too but at least will be tobiano patterned as will the foal in May.
 

Sandy
Posted From: 4.227.133.79
Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 12:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi horselady:
I'm glad to hear that your mare made it to you safe. I'm always a basket case when I'm waiting for a horse to arrive to me via transport. But an 8 hour ride isn't too bad.
Yeah, you may end up with two chestnut foals next year, but at least you know you're getting color with it.
As I think I've said before, I breed Appaloosas and my previous stallion was a very loud black and white App, but he didn't produce color a lot of the times. But now I have two homozygous stallions, so I'm pretty sure I will be having colored foals from here on out. I only have 1 App mare due next year and she is due in May. She is bred to my black and white snowcap stallion and this will be his first foal. The mare is a black and white with a spotted blanket. I can't even tell you how anxious I am for that foal! And I also have 2 Miniature mares due; one in April, the other in May. Both mares are loud colored pintos and the stallion they are both bred to is a solid buckskin. One of the mares has had a foal by this stallion before and it came out a black and white overo. And this will be a first foal for the other mare. She is a sorrel pinto, so I'm really hoping for a palomino pinto out of her. But just like you, I'm just going to have to wait.
 

horselady
Posted From: 67.70.70.197
Posted on Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 12:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Sandy;

My PA homozygous Bay mare is due May 12th, and my sorrel breeding stock is bred to a homo black and white tobiano, is due July 1st.
Do you feed anything extra when your mares are pregnant? My original mare has been out on grass all spring and summer with free choice hay and the occasional 1/3 bucket ( maybe 2 times a week) of sweet feed. I have to say shes come along nicely and gained weight. Her ribs were showing when I first bought her. I havent given her any oats or alfalfa as the hay she eats is excellent and she has had 20 acres of good grass to graze on all summer.

I know the PA mare was on a diet of crimped oats, alfalfa pellets twice a day plus a vitamin supplement with extra E and selenium and free choice hay. The ranch I bought her at didnt have any grass for grazing. I want to put her on a mare in foal feed such as blueseal, but it might be a bit early as she is only about 6 months along now.

Yes it was a long friday waiting for the transporter to call and let me know they had arrived safe and sound. He was supposed to call when they crossed over the US/Canadian border, but he didnt ! ACK!!! so by the time he called around 8 pm I was ready to freak out!

It will be a long winter waiting for these two foals, but thats ok. We are getting busy with the details to build our own barn so we dont have to board over the winter when all the dairy cows are back off pasture and in the barns the horses have access to all summer long. :-)
 

Sandy
Posted From: 4.228.249.117
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 12:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi horselady,
I don't worry about supplementing my pregnant mares until their last three months. It is during that time that the foal is gaining most of its weight. For the last three months I will supplement with a 10% sweet feed.
I think as long as a mare is on a good diet of good quality hay they will be fine. I just make sure that the mares have free access to a mineral block. You want to be careful with selenium, as I have heard that a horse can actually overdose on it. You have to have the correct balance of selenium to protein or it does something to them, but I'm not exactly sure what it is. And I've also been told that they shouldn't exceed 14% protein in their diet.
I have a book called "The Complete Book of Foaling" by Karen E. N. Hayes and it has some really good info in it about nutrition. But a lot of it is quite complicated as far as the correct measurements on what % to what % you're supposed to be feeding different vitamins and minerals. It talks a lot about calcium and phosphorus and how the two need to be balanced equally and all of this other stuff. Like I said, quite complicated. It also mentions that a mare does need more calcium during their last trimester, but also states that you can actually overdose them on that too. So, that's why I try to stay away from supplementing with one particular type of vitamin or mineral and figure that a good quality sweet feed should do just fine along with the hay and mineral block.
I've been breeding horses for almost 13 years now, and I haven't had any problems so far as to how I feed my mares during their pregnancies, so something must be working right :-)
 

horselady
Posted From: 67.70.70.197
Posted on Wednesday, December 01, 2004 - 01:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Sandy;

Thanks for all your help and info. I feel like a mother hen trying to cover all the bases for these two horses, but I am inclined to agree with both you and my vet, who essentially say the same thing. I will let the boarding facility know that she doesnt require anything extra right now and check on the mineral block.
 

horselady
Posted From: 64.230.153.197
Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 09:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a question about the agouti gene and how it presents. I was under the impression that the agouti gene in homozygous form would always give a bay colored horse.. now I am wondering if the agouti gene is only responsible for putting black at the points and you could end up with a buckskin with black points, or a grulla or dun etc. depending on the color of the stud.
 

Cathy
Posted From: 63.228.245.23
Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 09:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The agouti gene restricts black to the points on black horses. It does not effect any other color. That is why any other color horse can carry it without you knowing unless you have them tested. For example a sorrel could in theory be homozygous for the agouti gene, but they would still be sorrel.
Grulla and Dun are in no way related to the agouti gene.
So a black horse with the agouti is bay and a bay horse with the cream gene is buckskin. Another example would be a smokey black, and add the agouti is also buckskin.
I hope this made sense Cathy
 

horselady
Posted From: 64.230.153.197
Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 10:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am sending mane hair to California to have genetic testing done on my bay. Her sire is buckskin and damn is darker bay. The breeder had genetic testing done for homozygous tobiano and also had red and black gene testing done. She is homozygous for tobiano and has one red gene and one black gene.

I want to test her for agouti to see if she is homozygous for it. We know she has one agouti gene since she is a bay, but what else can this testing tell me. The breeder told me to have her tested to see how many agouti genes she has... how many could she have ? two?? IF she is homozygous for agouti she will never throw a black i think was said elsewhere in this category, but could she still throw a buckskin or other color dependant on the stud? with black points? or will she always throw a bay colored horse or chestnut since she has that one red gene.

If I was to cross her with a homozygous black homo tobiano, would the agouti be dominant over the homozygous black of the stud, or would there be a chance of a black and white foal > The breeder tells me that agouti isnt dominant over black and vice versa so it would be a 50-50 shot on black or bay or is there a possibility of a chestnut with her one red gene?

I know that if I bred to a homozygous black that the foal would get two black genes from the sire, and could get one black from mom or one red? If that was the case, would the two black dominate over the red? or over the agouti?

I am also told that a black and white horse does not have the agouti gene, so how can crossing two black horses give you a bay horse on the rare occasion as stated in Equine COlor Genetics in the table at the back of the book? Does this occur if the horse as one agouti and one black gene but the agouti doesnt show itself in the black horse at that time, but could down the line if both black and whites pass an agouti gene?

This whole thing is confusing me. :P~~~
 

L&R Farms
Posted From: 12.149.186.66
Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 12:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If she is homozygous for agouti, then SHE herself can only produce bay or sorrel, but what you breed her to could affect those base colors.

The only way she could produce black is if she is not homozygous for agouti.

Also, each parent only passes on one color gene. So a homozygous black sire, will give it's offspring one black gene. Then the dam will also give one color gene...in your mares case, she could give red or black.

Modifiers are passed on seperate from color genes...modifiers being dun, agouti, cream etc.

As for 2 blacks producing a bay, I don't see how unless one of the blacks was truly a bay, but so dark they couldn't tell...and that is possible. Beyond that, who knows...I sure don't!
 

horselady
Posted From: 64.230.153.197
Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 12:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Beats me.. i always thought that if a horse had the agouti gene it showed, but in reading in this Equine Color Genetics book, it says that there is a rare chance of a bay foal... Go figure !

Now, if this mare proves to be homozygous for agouti, and she was bred to a homozygous buckskin paint, or a homozygous black paint... would all her offspring have black points but maybe be buckskin or palomino or whatever?? I guess I am trying to figure out how exactly this agouti gene, if homozygous for it, will show in her foals.

With a homozygous black sire, he gives one black gene and she gives her one black gene, even if she is homozygous for agouti, what would the resulting foal color be?

How about if she gave the red gene instead?

With a homozygous buckskin tobiano that had black gene, if he gave his black or creme gene, and she gave her black, or her red, what would that resulting foal color probability be?
 

Cathy
Posted From: 63.228.245.23
Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 01:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

agouti only effects black horses. So even if she is homozygous for it it will not effect any color but black.
#1 above would be bay
#2 above would be bay
#3 above bay
#4 above buckskin
all tobiano
horselady read chapter 2 in the book it explains it very well. Cathy
 

horselady
Posted From: 64.230.153.197
Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 01:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ok will do cathy thanks. Im enjoying learning all about genetics and what the possibilities are in foal outcomes.
Im off to read chapter 2 again to see if it makes any more sense to me now than it did when i read it last week :P~~~
 

Cathy
Posted From: 63.228.245.23
Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 01:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The book is pretty intence. I had to break it down read half a dozen times before I finally felt comfortable with it. I have alway been facinated with color genetics. Good luck with the reread. :-) Cathy
 

horselady
Posted From: 64.230.153.197
Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 01:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Cathy,, thanks for the info... now if she proves not to be homozygous for agouti (Bay) then she could have a black from the homozygous black or even the buckskin?
 

Cathy
Posted From: 63.228.245.23
Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 01:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

She can have buckskin even if she is homozygous. A buckskin is a bay with the cream gene.
If she is heterozygous and does not pass the agouti then yes she can have black foals.
 

horselady
Posted From: 64.230.153.197
Posted on Friday, January 14, 2005 - 02:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ahh thats where my confusion was. I thought that agouti always showed if the horse carried it. Now that I know that isnt accurate I think I have a better idea of this whole bay coloring.
 

horselady
Posted From: 64.230.153.197
Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 10:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I found a great chart on the UC Davis website that gives all the possibilities for bay and black and chestnut factoring in the homozygous genes and recessives ones. I went to coat colors and clicked on a link in the agouti category that sends you to a table of all the possibilities.
www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/service/horse/coatcolor.html#agouti

Using bay for example:

A is dominant agouti
a is recessive agouti
E is dominant black
e is recessive red pigment
EE is homozygous black
ee is chestnut/sorrel
Ee is both black and red factors detected
E is no red factor
A or Aa gives black points.

to cross a bay that is EeAa (black and red gene, also black points) to a Black (Eeaa) ( black and red gene detected, recessive agouti) you have a 37.5% chance of bay
37.5% chance of black
25% chance of chestnut.

If I cross that same bay mare with a black (EEaa) - dominant black recessive agouti then we get:
50% chance of Bay
50% chance of Black

That same bay mare (EeAa bred to a chestnut (eeaa) will give me:

25% chance of a bay
25% chance of black
50% chance of a chestnut.

If the chestnut is eeAa

37.5% chance of bay
12.5% chance of Black
50% chance of chestnut.

lastly, if the chestnut is eeAA but naturally doesnt show the homozygous agouti because is has no black on it to suppress;

50% bay
50% chestnut

so, Sandys point in breeding a chestnut to a bay gives a 50% chance of chestnut is correct by this chart.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this chestnut sorrel my bay is bred to is eeAa or eeaa, and my bay is EeAa and not EeAA. IF she is EeAA then she will never have a black foal, only bay or chestnut no matter what she is bred to in the chestnut, bay, brown or black family.

My only question here would be... what if she is bred to a buckskin and we throw in a creme gene. From what I have gathered a buckskin is a bay with a cream gene thrown in...

Bay (EeAa) crossed with Bay (EeAa)

results in:
56% bay
19% black
25% chestnut.

throw in the cream gene, and you could get a buckskin or possibly a palomino or smokey black?

Once I have results from agouti tests on my mare, I will know whether she is EeAA or EeAa. I already know she is Ee since she has been tested to have one black gene and one red gene. Since she is Bay I know she has at least one A which shows in her black points.

Just think, I only have to wait until May to find out what she throws :P~~~
 

Sandy
Posted From: 4.227.172.146
Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 12:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi horselady,
You're right on the chances of buckskin, palomino or smokey black when breeding to a buckskin.
You would take your same percentages that you have listed when breeding bay to bay.
So you would have

56% bay with 50% chance of being buckskin
19% black/ 50% chance of smokey black
25% chestnut/ 50% chance of palomino.

As you can see, by breeding this mare to a buckskin, you are really tossing the dice on what color you're going to get. But that's what makes this whole thing so much fun :-)
 

horselady
Posted From: 64.230.153.197
Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 12:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is alot of fun Sandy!.. Finding that color chart with the hetero and homo genes really helped me understand the whole genetic thing.

At this point Im not really sure whether to breed to a homozygous black homo tobi, or a homo black homo buckskin tobi. I would really like that black and white homo foal, but looking at the chart, homozygous black tobi gives me a better percentage of getting that black and white foal than to breed to the buckskin which throws the chestut into the mix, though a palomino or buckskin would be a nice little foal too LOL

I guess I will make that decision when I get results back from Davis to see whether Becky is EeAa or EeAA.

Now, with my sorrel breeding stock and a hetero black, looking at this chart, I have a 50% chance of black or chestnut if the sire is Eeaa and she is eeaa, and a 25% chance of black or bay and 50% chestnutif she is eeAa, and no chance of black if she is eeAA- the result being 50% bay or chestnut.

If the black horse is EEaa, and the chestnut is eeaa, she will have 100% black. If the chestnut is eeAa, then we get 50-50 in black and bay coloring, and if the chestnut proves to be eeAA then you get a bay.

For my own horse, I know the sire has thrown chestuts, so I know he isnt EEaa. He has to be Eeaa Ee being one black gene, one red gene, so im my case, the first set of examples with Eeaa would be where my foal from this cross would be.
 

horselady
Posted From: 69.156.78.147
Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 02:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK.. test results are in for Becky. She is homozygous for Agouti. AA. Davis also confirmed her red and black gene. This makes her genetic makeup EeAA. This isnt the news I was hoping for as I will never get a black foal from this mare. Now I have to look for a stud that will give me something other than chestnut or bay.

If I understand this whole genetic thing, if I breed to homozygous black I am still going to get a Bay since her homozygous agouti will limit the black to the points on the foal.

If I breed to a buckskin, I have a chance of a buckskin if he throws his creme gene, but I could also get a bay or a chestnut.Does anyone know the percentages for this mix ( buckskin, bay or chestnut? )

Are there other colors of studs that I should be looking at? I wanted to breed for homozygous paints but I don't think there are any perlino or cremello homo tobianos out there.
 

Anonymous
Posted From: 130.36.62.125
Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 03:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yep, if you breed to EE black, you'll only get bay. if you breed to Ee black you'll get bay or chestnut.

for EeAA crossed on buckskin CrcrEe, you'd get

25% Buckskin
25% Palomino
25% Chestnut
25% Bay

Now if the stallion was CrcrEE you'd get
50% Buckskin
50% Bay

The only way to get 100% cream colored (Buckskin or Palomino) would be to breed to a double dilute stallion. What your chances are of buckskin or palomino would be determined by whether the stallion is homozygous for black.
 

Sandy
Posted From: 4.228.249.182
Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 06:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Horselady:
Sorry to hear that your mare didn't turn out the way you had hoped. Personally, I do not think there is anything wrong with bay Paints. I think they are quite striking looking myself.
But, the Anonymous poster is right, the only way to assure yourself of not having bay foals is to breed to a double dilute. And you're probably right on there not being too many perlino and cremello homozygous tobiano Paints out there. A lot of folks who are breeding for color (contrasting coat pattern) try NOT to get double dilutes because it takes away from being able to see the contrast....bummer.
Too bad your mare wasn't a Miniature Horse, as there are a few double dilute pinto stallions available. My good friend has a perlino overo Miniature stallion!
 

horselady
Posted From: 69.156.78.147
Posted on Monday, January 31, 2005 - 07:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ah well.. its not all bad. I do love the look of Becky but was hoping for Aa instead of the AA so I could get that black and white I wanted. Heck, that just gives me the excuse to buy a homo black, homo tobi mare this fall :P I'll do a little more looking to see what I can find out there in stallion world.

I do have a line on a buckskin, but I can't seem to convince the owner to have him tested for black. She tells me that she has a full line up for breeding regardless.
I know from his pedigree info that his father was a black, out of a brown grandfather and black grandmother, and his mother was a buckskin out of a grullo father and a sorrel mother. The grandparents of the brown were black and black,and for the black grandmother, her parents were bay and sorrel.

The damn's side, the grullo was out of two browns, and the sorrel was out of a sorrel and a red roan.

Going another generation back on the sire's side, there are mostly sorrels with a bay or two thrown in.
On the damn's side, are bays, browns, blacks and a grey thrown in for good measure.

I am seriously considering this buckskin as he will give me more possibilities than a EE black if he throws his creme gene. He also has some excellent bloodlines. He is also an hour from home and I wouldnt have to bother with semen shipments or AI.- something else that would add expense and lower my percentages of getting my mare in foal.

Since he has alot of sorrel in his background, I am hopeful that he isnt homozygous black and therefore we could get palomino, buckskin or bay, and of course that darn old chestnut LOL

ANyway, now that I know she is EeAA and bred to this flaxen chestnut for a May foal, I guess my foal will be 50-50 for chestnut or bay.

Im still hopeful that my sorrel breeding stock bred to a heterozygous black will give me that black and white, though I know the percentages for each cross are eeaa x Eeaa 50% black, 50% chestnut, eeAa x Eeaa 25% bay, 25% black, 50% chestnut, and finally eeAA x Eeaa 50% bay, 50% chestnut.

Some additional info on my sorrel - her sire was a brown tobiano, her mother a QH ( no info on color but i suspect brown or sorrel), her sires parents were black tobiano and black overo, and again, the dam's parents were both quarter horses with no color information.. The sire of the black tobiano was a sorrel, damn was a bay, and the sire of the black overo was a brown overo and damn a QH. All the dam's 4th generation were QH. I guess we will see what we end up with. In the meantime I get to do some window shopping for a new mare. :-)
 

Sandy
Posted From: 4.228.252.167
Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 12:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hold on a minute here....
The buckskin you are thinking about breeding to must not be a genetic buckskin if his grandsire on his dam's side is a grullo....grullo does not contain the creme gene, but rather the dun gene, completely different. So, that would actually make the buckskin stallion's dam a yellow dun. They are commonly mistaken for buckskin. And that would more than likely make the buckskin stallion also a yellow dun. UNLESS the grullo wasn't actually a grullo, but a black buckskin. And a grullo can't come out of two browns, one of the browns had to have a dun gene. Grullo is a black horse lightened by dun. Does the stallion have any primitive markings? Dorsal stripe, leg barring, anything like that?
My neighbor had a breed stock paint mare that was listed as a grullo...but when she was bred to a sorrel, she produced palominos. Which tells me that she was actually a black buckskin, as dun doesn't produce palomino.
If this buckskin stallion does actually prove to be a yellow dun, dun is dominant and you can get a yellow dun out of a bay.
See what this stallion has produced before. If he has ever produced a palomino, then you know he is buckskin.
Just had to give you something else to think about didn't I :-)
 

horselady
Posted From: 69.156.78.147
Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 04:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Arggggg.....Sandy ... This buckskin's name is Skips Regal Chicee APHA 00678926. He was born in 2002, so this spring will be his first crop of foals. The first is due about a month after Becky has her foal. Maybe you can make better sense of his pedigree than I do. The grullo was Skips grandsire, and his granddamn was a sorrel. The grullo (Regal Sun) came out of a brown tobi (Prince Rellim) and a brown quarterhorse.(Lady Sunbeam) Prince is out of a Bay (Rellim SW) and a Bay Tobi (Texas Princess) Lady Sunbeam is out of a brown (Deep Sun) - no color identified and out of a QH black by the name of Watch Me Win. You can look up his pedigree on APHA to make better sense of all this mish-mash LOL.

As for his markings, he has no primitive markings at all. You can see pictures of him on www.wendelinfarm.com.

I'll email the owner and ask her what she thinks of what you have mentioned and post back what she writes if she answers.
 

horselady
Posted From: 69.156.78.147
Posted on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 - 10:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

so what does throwing this dun factor into the mix do? What colors might I now get if this is a yellow dun and not a buckskin?
 

horselady
Posted From: 69.156.78.147
Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 11:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is the response from the owner of the stallion....

Thanks for the email! The color genetic is sometimes complicated and yes somethimes horses get wrong registered! Especialy when they register them as small babies, because color can realy change! But I am pretty sure that my stallion and also his dam are real buckskin and not dun's because none of them has dorsol stripe etc.Many people don't know the differents between Buckskin and dun! But I know that dun's always have dorsol stripe and buckskin's don't! So realy time will tell what my stallion is producing...all I can tell you is that his dam had several buckskin before and last spring she had a very nice buckskin filly with nice black points but it died at birth!

For me breeding paints is first I look for good breeding and good mind, then for color, of course color is a plus! But still you never know what comes out...
have a nice day
 

horselady
Posted From: 69.156.78.147
Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 12:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

An additional email from the stallion owner:

Hello again,

just checked the APHA about the progeny from the dam of Skip (buckskin stud) and she produced three times a buckskin with mating to the same sire (has was black Tobiano) and she had one bay Tobiano out of a brown stallion!
 

Sandy
Posted From: 4.228.252.12
Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 12:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I looked at the picture of the stallion, and he does look buckskin rather than dun. But the stallion owner is incorrect when she told you that buckskins do not have dorsal stripes, some of them do.
I tried to make sense of the stallion's pedigree, but really couldn't get anywhere. All I can say is that if he really is a buckskin, then his grand-sire was not a grullo. He had to have been a black buckskin, or sooty buckskin. And the same with one of his "brown" parents. The creme gene does not skip generations, either they have it, or they don't. But in the case of smokey blacks, the creme gene can be masked.
I tried looking up the pedigree for Regal Sun, and came up with a different Regal Sun than the one this stallion is coming out of. The Regal Sun that I found is a QH and does have both buckskin AND dun in his pedigree. He is by a stallion named Eternal Sun and out of a mare named Possum Honey. It is Possum Honey that has both buckskin and dun breeding. But it looks like it is not the same Regal Sun tho.
Your best bet is to just wait and see what the stallion puts on the ground this year :-)
 

horselady
Posted From: 69.156.78.147
Posted on Wednesday, February 02, 2005 - 01:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Regal Sun is APHA 0080304 I just looked him up on the APHA and it shows his pedigree going back two more generations. It looks to me like he has a whole bunch of browns, bays, and one black in his line. I doubt he was a grullo, as the stallion owner says, they get registered as foals and then change colors. More likely he was a black or sooty buckskin as both his grandparents (rellim SW) and Texas Princess were Bays.

His first foals to hit the ground will be around the end of May. Becky is due around the beginning of May. I would have to wait a while to see what he produces before breeding back to her, which is fine since I am not going to be foaling her out at the facility where the buckskin is anyway.

I think I will wait and see what he produces. I know he is bred to a sorrel homozygous tobiano whose sire was a bay tobi and dam a sorrel tobi. Grandparents are all sorrels and great grandsires and dams on both sides quarter horses bays, palominos and more quarter horses. Should be interesting to see what his first foal turns out to be other than guaranteed homozygous tobi.



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