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VAL
Posted From: 206.176.217.218
| | Posted on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 04:07 pm: | 
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MY STALLION IS A SORREL WITH FLAXEN MANE AND TAIL. MY MARES ARE A BLACK OVERO WITH MINIMAL MARKINGS AND A DARK BAY. |
Cathy
Posted From: 65.54.98.14
| | Posted on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 09:23 pm: |
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Your sorrel bay X can have black, sorrel, and bay
Your Overo sorrel cross can have sorrel, black,and bay if the sorrel carries the agouti gene, and 1/2 of each of those colors can be overo |
VAL
Posted From: 206.176.217.218
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2004 - 10:00 am: |
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DOES ANYTHING CHANGE IF THE SORREL HAS TOBIANO AND GRULLA IN THE BLOODLINE, HE IS REGISTERED AS A PAINT. |
Cathy
Posted From: 65.54.98.24
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2004 - 03:51 pm: |
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No it doesn't change anything. If he does not show either of those colors he can't pass them on because he doesn't carry the genes for them. |
Sandy
Posted From: 4.227.133.127
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2004 - 05:55 pm: |
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Val,
I would say that yes, your stallion could pass on the Tobiano considering that he is a solid (breed stock) Paint, which means that he COULD be carrying the Tobiano gene.
I have been breeding my solid stallion, which is out of a Tobiano sire to my Tovero mare and have gotten Tobiano foals every time.
I also breed Appaloosas and I'm sure that Paints are the same as far as color production, but the point being that a SOLID Appaloosa can and will throw color. Just because a horse is phenotypically (looks) solid does not mean that it is genotipically (gentically) solid. It can carry the coat pattern producing genes, it just does not express them in their own coat pattern.
As for having Grulla in the background, the only way to know whether or not your stallion is carrying the Dun gene is to either have him tested for it, or to see what his color production is. If he is bred to a chestnut and produces a red Dun, then you know he does carry the dun gene and can pass it on. But I would honestly have to say that the only way I would think that this could be possible is if one of his own parents were the Grulla. If the Grulla is several generations back, then the chances of him carrying the Dun gene are pretty slim.
Case in point: I have a loud colored, black Appaloosa mare whose dam is a red Dun. Every foal that this mare has produced has had a very prominent dorsal stripe, eventhough she, herself, does not have one.
As for your crosses that you're wondering about on base colors, Cathy forgot to leave out the fact that if your bay mare is a homozygous bay, then she will only have a bay foal.
And if your black Overo mare is homozygous for black, then you will have a black, bay, or brown foal.
So, this is what I would guess:
Sorrel X Black Overo:
1. sorrel
2. chestnut
3. bay/dark bay
4. black
5. brown
Plus throw in 50% chance of getting Paint markings on each of those base colors.
Sorrel X dark bay
Pretty much the same as above, plus I would still say the 50% chance of getting Paint markings considering your stallion is a registered Paint. |
Cathy
Posted From: 65.54.98.14
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 12:16 am: |
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Sandy solid colored horses do not carry the tobiano gene. There are minamally marked tobianos but they are not solid. Your tovero mare carries the tobiono gene which is why you can get tobiano foals.You may want to look at this site, it is very informative and can teach alot about the color genes. www.equinecolor.com
Sorrel and chestnut are in actuallity the same color, red some are dark and some are light. Bay and dark bay are the same with the sooty gene thrown in. Black and brown are argued in the genetic circles. Some say that brown is just fading black and a few say it is a differint color.
You see all horses are red or black. All other colores are modifiers or dilutes. |
VAL
Posted From: 206.176.217.218
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 10:03 am: |
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I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT MY OVERO'S BACKGROUND, BUT MY SORREL IS ACTUALLY REGISTERED AS A SOLID RED DUN. HIS DAM WAS A BUCKSKIN AND HIS SIRE A BAY. MY BAY HAS BAY AND BROWN IN HER BACKGROUND. DOES THE FACT THAT HE HIS A DUN CHANGE ANY COLOR OPTIONS? THANKS FOR ALL THE INPUT. |
Cathy
Posted From: 65.54.98.149
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 11:58 pm: |
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Val for a horse to be dun they MUST have a dun parent. It is a possibility that the buckskin was in fact a dunskin. It had to have a dun parent to be a dunskin though. A buckskin is a cross of a bay with a dilute horse. Can you research the parents of the buckskin? If neither is dun then your sorrel is just that sorrel. No dun gene involved. Cathy |
VAL
Posted From: 206.176.217.218
| | Posted on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 09:45 am: |
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ON THE DAM'S PAPERS, SHE IS A BUCKSKIN/SOLID. HER SIRE IS SORREL/OVERO OUT OF A SORREL/OVERO (SIRE) AND SORREL/SOLID. DON'T KNOW THE COLOR OF THE DAM, BUT SHE IS "LEEDA MISS TOPS 1647290" OUT OF A SORREL (SIRE) AND PALOMINO. THE SIRE IS A BAY OUT OF TWO BAYS LEADING BACK TO BAY WITH BAY AND BAY WITH CHESTNUT. HOPEFULLY THIS HELPS. |
Cathy
Posted From: 65.54.98.28
| | Posted on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 10:04 pm: |
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From the info you posted I would have to say your horse is not dun. It doesn't look like he has a dun in his background anywhere. |
Bobby Ann Abbott
Nursing Foal
Username: Baskmidnightshadow
Post Number: 12
Registered: 03-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 16, 2005 - 01:01 pm: |
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Cathy I need to verify that you are incorrect in regards to a BS paint not having the Tobiano gene. Sandy is correct that a horse can have the genotipically gene but not the phenotypically gene. This is a section from the website that you referred us to:
Occasionally horses with the tobiano gene do not have any body spots. These minimally marked horses will have white leg markings of varying size, the head will be dark, unless another pattern is also present. Sometimes this is referred to as a "slipped Tobiano". There are even horses who have only a couple short socks that test homozygous for Tobiano.
This combination is usually thought to be just your basic solid horses with basic white leg markings. The specific combination of extensive leg white and no facial white is consistent with the Tobiano gene and is not consistent with the combination leg and face markings otherwise common in horses. Though these horses are genetically Tobiano they do not look so physically because they are missing the body spots. Tobiano offspring as reliably as any other horse with the Tobiano gene. |
Sandy D
Yearling
Username: Sbr_appaloosas
Post Number: 56
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 17, 2005 - 07:25 pm: |
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Thank you for clarifying that Bobby Ann.
I believe Cathy is referring to a solid horse as one that does not have any white anywhere. In my books, a solid is one that does not exhibit any body spots. It can still have a snip, a star, a sock, even just a white spot on the pastern and still be a solid.
But it is true, that if you have a solid (non spotted) horse from two parents carrying the spotting gene, the resulting offspring CAN be a carrier of the spotting gene, whether they outwardly exhibit it or not. How else do you explain a breed stock paint bred to a breed stock paint producing a colored foal? |
