MAIN PAGE
EQUINE REPRODUCTION ARTICLES
SHORT COURSES
OTHER SERVICES AVAILABLE FROM EQUINE-REPRODUCTION.COM
FROZEN SEMEN STALLIONS
CERTIFIED SEMEN FREEZING LOCATIONS
EQUINE REPRODUCTION SUPPLIES
EQUINE REPRODUCTION BOOKS
EQUINE REPRODUCTION LINKS
EQUINE REPRODUCTION E-MAIL LIST
EASILY CALCULATE THE CORRECT VOLUME OF SEMEN AND EXTENDER TO SHIP OR USE ON FARM!
EQUINE REPRODUCTION BULLETIN BOARD
SITE MAP OF EQUINE-REPRODUCTION.COM
CONTACT US

horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
horse breeding
Go to the articles page
 
Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board
 
Topics Page Topics Page Register for a new account Register Edit Profile Profile Log Out Log Out Help/Instructions Help    
New Posts New Posts Last 1|3|7 Days Search Search Tree View Tree View  
Posting is restricted to registered board members only to prevent spamming of the board. We regret the necessity of this action, but hope you will appreciate the importance of the integrity of the board. Registration is free and information provided during the process will not be submitted to third parties.

Color prediction?

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » Color prediction? « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Mary Ann
Nursing Foal
Username: Newbie

Post Number: 17
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 09:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm new to this and haven't studied up much on genetics so can anyone help me?

I've got a chestnut (with alot of black speckling) QH mare. Both of her parents were sorrel. The stud is a bay and his parents were chestnut and bay. I'll include pictures of both.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u312/newbie_38/P4160041.jpg

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u312/newbie_38/DazzalMe.jpg
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 290
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 06:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mary Ann: Theres a great link on the web for figuring out coat colors. I cant recall it at the moment, but Im sure you could find it if you typed in Coat Color Calculator into your search and see what comes up.
 

Heather Kutyba
Breeding Stock
Username: Heatherck11

Post Number: 550
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, April 26, 2007 - 07:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mary Ann,
Based on the color combo you gave...here are your foal color options:

Bay, chestnut/sorrel, or black

Your highest percentages go to the bay & sorrel.

Here is the link Debbie was talking about (it's fun to play with).
http://www.animalgenetics.us/CCalculator1.asp
 

Mary Ann
Nursing Foal
Username: Newbie

Post Number: 18
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 09:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for your help...I'm really wanting a Bay or Black out of those choices I guess. I would love to have a Buckskin but I guess I don't have the right combinations. Is there any mare color that has a better chance of having a buckskin? A buckskin probably huh???
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 293
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, April 27, 2007 - 04:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mary Ann: To get a buckskin you need one parent with a dilute or cream gene. Two buckskins, or a buckskin and a bay, or a perlino and a bay, etc would give you a chance at a buckskin. Also, buckskin is a black horse, not a red gened horse such as a sorrel or chestnut, so your odds of getting a buckskin from that cross are unfortunately zero :-(

With that combo you described you can get a black, better chance if the stallion is homozygous for black because black in the homo form EE is dominant over the red gene of the chestnut mare.

Best way to get a buckskin is to cross a bay and buckskin, or a bay and perlino. A bay and buckskin cross can also give you a palamino if both horses are not homo for black and each gives a red gene and the buckskin gives a creme gene as well. You could also get a sorrel from that cross if both horses give a red gene and the buckskin doesnt give the creme.

Genetics are fun to play with. There are really no guarantees unless you are crossing colors with homozygous genes.

For example, my bay mare is EeAATT, which is E, black gene, e red gene, AA is homozygous for Agouti (Bay gene that limits the black on a horse to its points - ears etc) and TT is homo for tobiano which means that all foals are guaranteed to be paints.

My stallion is a homozygous perlino tobiano... genetically he is EeAaCrCrTT, which means he has a black gene E a red gene e, two creme genes (homozygous for cream) so he will always throw a creme gene to the foal, and TT which is homozygous for tobiano, so his foals will all be painted too, just like the mare.

Now, with that combo I will get either buckskin homozygous tobiano, possibly homo for also black EE if they both throw the black gene into the pot, or a buckskin not homo for black, with one E and one e (one black and one red gene), plus one creme gene from the stallion, and also guaranteed homozyous tobiano since both parents are TT. EECrTT or EeCrTT (both buckskin genetics)
The other possibility is a palomino homozygous paint if both parents throw red gene e plus the stallion throws the Cr and TT. that would give me a palomino eeCrTT.

Now, the percentages of the foal are 75% buckskin and 25% palomino.

One last point.... if my perlino tobi was triple homo for creme, black and tobiano, we would get a buckskin every time.... as the black E gene would overpower the red e gene so no red based foals would ever come from this cross.

Deb
 

Stephanie
Nursing Foal
Username: Redwood66

Post Number: 14
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 11:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello all,

This color genetics is very interesting and I have been searching the boards for all the palomino info.

My maiden mare is due next week and she is a bay. We had her mother who had about 20 foals and they were only red when she was crossed with a red stud. The stallion she is bred to is a palomino out of a chestnut mare and by a palomino. The color genetics calculator says 30% buckskin, 30% bay, 16% pal, 16% chestnut, 4% black and 4% sooty. But I did not have the other info to put in for gene carrying.

With the history I have given does anyone know if one color is more likely than the others? I am really hoping that red gene does not pop up. I hope its a buckskin or pal, but a bay would be good too. Thank you and all the foals are beautiful so far!

Stephanie
 

Mary Ann
Nursing Foal
Username: Newbie

Post Number: 19
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 09:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, thanks Debbie....I see that I have a whole bunch to learn. So far Sunny is my only brood mare so I need to do some research before I buy my next one.
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 295
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 09:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mary ANn: There is a great book out there call Equine Color Genetics. 2nd Edition, by Phillip Sponenberg. I believe it is no longer in print, but you can probably still get it on Ebay or Amazon.com websites. It is well written and easy to understand. It goes through all the genetics of the colors, patterns etc and the back of the book gives you color charts with probability for foal colors, which is also very handy. I highly recommend it !

Deb
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 296
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 28, 2007 - 09:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stephanie: It sounds to me from your description that the palomino gave a red gene (e) and the stallion gave a black gene (E) for you to get a bay from that cross. A bay is genetically a black horse with Agouti gene Aa or AA, which limits the black of the bay to only the points (ears, tail etc.)

You state that the mother of your mare was a palomino that produced only red gened horses when bred to a chestnut. That is correct since both the palomino and the chestnut are (ee) gened horses - no black gene to pass on. Your bay also did not get the creme gene from its palomino mother, or she would have been palomino or buckskin . Instead, she got e from the mom, E from the dad and an agouti gene from either one since the agouti only shows on a black horse (a chestnut or palomino can carry it without it showing as the red gened horses have no means to express it without having some black to limit)

Your Bay mare could not be homozygous for black as the mother was a palomino, which means that genetically she is EeAa or EeAA. The palomino she is bred to would have to be eeAa or eeAA,

When I put those genetics into the calculator I get an equal chance of palomino or chestnut at 23.4%, then buckskin and bay equally at 20.5, and then down to 2.9% for black or smokey black combinations.

Deb
 

Stephanie
Nursing Foal
Username: Redwood66

Post Number: 15
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 10:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Debbie, now that I look at my post it is a little confusing for you. Sorry about that.

My mare is a bay, her mother was a bay (who only threw red when bred to a red stud).
My mare's sire was a bay (by a chestnut and out of a bay).

The stallion I bred my mare to is a pal, his sire is a pal (out of a pal by a chestnut).
The stallion's dam is a chestnut (by a chesnut and out of a chestnut)

I hope that makes it more helpful. I am amazed at everyone who has this info down as it must take a huge amount of study. We'll see hopefully in the next few days what we really get. Thank you again and I appreciate your help. I think the percentages will come out different now that you have the right information.

Stephanie
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 298
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 01, 2007 - 06:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

hmm..mare is bay, stallion is pal... I get the same percentages as before. I assumed that the mare was Ee and the palomino would be ee. Now, if the bay is homo for black (EE), then that takes all the red gened horses out of the equation and you end up with 46% Bay or Buckskin, and 6% Black or smokey approximately.
Have you ever had coat color testing done on your mare to see if she is homo for black or not? She could be Ee or EE depending on whether both parents gave a black gene.

Deb
 

Stephanie
Nursing Foal
Username: Redwood66

Post Number: 19
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 12:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Debbie thanks for trying to help. I have not had any testing done on her and this is her first foal. I guess I will see what I get when she decides to pop this baby out. I am hoping any day now! Thanks again and I may have to have a test done on her so I know a little more when I breed her next year. We found a black son of Peppy San Badger here local and that would be a great cross for her.
How much does testing cost generally?
 

Debbie Burnett
Breeding Stock
Username: Horselady

Post Number: 299
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 01:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stephanie: I just color coat tested my weanling filly using UC Davis in California. Its fast, easy and cheap. All you need to do is go on their website and download the forms. Then, you pluck 60 mane hairs with root attached and tape them to the spot indicated on the forms. Fold it and download and print the permits, send off the payment and thats it.

I did two tests on my filly since some thought she was light bay and we were hoping for buckskin. It costs 40 for one test (Ee and Agouti) and it cost me another 25 for the creme test, which I needed to do so I would know if she was buckskin or not (she is !!!)

All the info you need is on the website. Click the horse color coat testing link and follow the info. Its pretty simple to do. I mailed my sample and I got an email 2 weeks later from UC Davis telling me they received it (Im in Canada so I think it was held up at customs for a bit), and two days later I had the email results from UC Davis.

Here is the link: http://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/

Deb


Sometimes its not too hard to figure out the genetics on your own without testing. For example, if you had a palomino and a black, you know the palomino is eeCrAa or eeCraa or eeCrAA, and the black could be EEAa or EeAA. You know from those genetics that the foal from that cross cannot be EE because the palomino has no E to give. So if the foal is black, it would be Ee. I did the Agouti test on my filly since her mom is homozygous for Agouti, which means that gene will always restrict the black on a black horse (such as a Bay) to the points. That tells me that my mare will never give me a black foal, not a smokey black, no black bodied horse. Only Bay or Buckskin in the black family. My filly out of that mare is not AA, she is Aa, which means I have a chance for a black bodied foal from her one day :-)

I know its all a bit confusing, but as long as you know the basics, you can learn more as you go.

chestnut or sorrel horse ee
black EE or Ee
Bay EE or Ee
Buckskin EECr or EeCr
Perlino EEcrcr or EeCrCr
Cremello eecrcrAa or eecrcrAA
palomino eecrAa or eecrAA

then theres the duns, grullos, grays etc.
 

Cathy
Breeding Stock
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 226
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 02, 2007 - 08:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here is the link to the lab I have used. They are fast, very helpful, and the test are $25. each.
http://www.animalgenetics.us/Equine.htm

This lab is also $25 for most tests.

http://www.petdnaservicesaz.com/Equine.html



Please note that opinions, product information, advice or suggestions posted on this bulletin board are not necessarily those of the management at Equine-Reproduction.com nor does the maintenance of the post position indicate an implicit or any endorsement of that information, opinion or product.

Further, although we have the greatest respect for the posters offering assistance here, you are advised to seek a consultation with your veterinarian prior to using information obtained from this board if it is of a veterinary nature.

Proud to be sponsored and supported by:
IMV Technologies - makers of Equine AI Equipment
Equine A.I. Equipment Supplies
Universal Medical Systems Ultrasounds
For your Veterinary Ultrasounding Needs
Hamilton Research Inc - Home of the Equitainer
Hamilton Research Inc - Home of the Equitainer
Exodus Breeders Supply - Your one-stop shop for all your reproductive needs!
Exodus Breeders Supply
Har-Vet: An Industry Leader in Equine Veterinary Products
An Industry Leader in Equine Veterinary Products!
Reproduction Resources: Specializing in Artificial Breeding and Embryo Transfer Supplies
Specializing in Artificial Breeding and ET Supplies
BET Pharm: Your Compounding Pharmacy for Reproductive Needs!
Your Compounding Pharmacy for Reproductive Needs!
www.SemenTanks.com - Quality Tanks at Competitive Prices!
Quality Tanks at Competitive Prices!
J.L. Smith Co. - Safe, affordable breeding stocks!
Safe, affordable breeding stocks!
  International Veterinary Information Service
International Veterinary Information Service
 

MAIN PAGE | INFORMATIONAL ARTICLES | SHORTCOURSES | SERVICES
FROZEN STALLIONS | FREEZING LOCATIONS | SUPPLIES | BOOKS | LINKS
EQUINE REPRODUCTION E-MAIL LIST | SEMEN CALCULATOR | BULLETIN BOARD
SITEMAP | CONTACT US