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Homozygous Black

Equine-Reproduction.com Bulletin Board » Equine Genetics » Homozygous Black « Previous Next »


Author Message
 

Anne
Posted From: 151.213.153.49
Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 12:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I bred my TB mare to an arabian stallion. I am wondering about the color chances. The stallion is homozygous black, both parents black. My TB mare is Bay and her parents are bay and palomino. What are the chances for getting a black foal??? I'm really wanting a black foal!
 

Cathy
Posted From: 67.1.7.245
Posted on Wednesday, January 07, 2004 - 09:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Anne black is dominant so if the stallion is truely homozygous for black he will always throw the black gene. By the way just because both parents are black does not in itself mean the stallion is homozygous. The bay dam has the black gene and the chestnut gene. The black is expressed with the agouti gene restricting the black to the points.
The foal from this mating has a 50% chance of being black and 50% chance of being bay. Cathy
 

Anne
Posted From: 151.213.153.49
Posted on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 12:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Cathy. The stallion was tested for Homozygous Black through DNA, although I don't have proof. Thanks.

Anne
 

Joanie
Posted From: 24.75.98.94
Posted on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 02:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is it safe to assume that a black Friesian homozygous black?
 

Cathy
Posted From: 67.1.1.169
Posted on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 03:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Joanie black is the breed standard. I have never seen any other color, although I have heard of crop outs. I quess it would be safe to assume they are.
 

joanie
Posted From: 24.75.98.17
Posted on Thursday, January 08, 2004 - 07:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The reason I ask is that I have a dark brn (looks black) mare that I would like to cross -- I want a black baby and if a Friesian is homozygous . . .
 

Sandy
Posted From: 64.158.65.125
Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 04:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Black is the breed standard for pure bred Fresians, not outcrosses. Of course all true Fresians are black, because of the fact that every Fresian MUST be black to be a true Fresian, but that doesn't mean that if you take a non-Fresian mare and breed it to a Fresian, that you will get a black foal. You can get brown, bay, black, all of the black bases are possible.
 

Suzanne D.
Posted From: 205.188.116.21
Posted on Thursday, April 08, 2004 - 07:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Are there any medical tests available to determine the sex of a baby in-utero other than an ultrasound????
 

Sandy
Posted From: 4.228.249.248
Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 06:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Suzanne,
I have never heard of one in my years of breeding, but if there is a way other than ultrasound it would be interesting to hear what it is!
 

Melissa Wise
Posted From: 64.12.116.22
Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 02:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Since the stud is homozygous for the black gene aaEE and if your mare is a bay and carries the Agouti gene Aa then you have a 75% chance of a Black foal, and a 25%chance of a bay foal. If your mare carries the Agouti gene AA then you have a 75% chance of a bay foal and 25% chance of a Black foal. But the good news is either way bay or black you have a 50% chance of the foal being homozygous for the black gene EE, which means it will always through the black dominant E gene.
WWW.Equine-Information.com
 

Julie Lawler
Posted From: 207.218.237.235
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2004 - 10:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

CORRECTION: (to the above)...if the mare is Homozygous Bay (AAEe or AAEE) ...and bred to a Homozygous Black, the resulting foal will ALWAYS be bay. The Agouti allele is dominant, thus always showing itself if the foal resceives even one "capital A" -which would be the case here.
Say you don't know a ANYTHING about the dam and you are crossing her with a Homozygous Black, the ONLY thing you can be sure of is that it WILL NOT EVER be red (a sorrel or chestnut) -nothing else is guaranteed UNLESS you know something about the dam. If the dam is black (heterozygous or Homozygous) and you cross her with a Homozygous Black, you will automatically get a black, but if she is chestnut, grey, or bay, etc... -you've GOT to know more on the mare to be able to determine foal color.
I've noticed people talk about the "Black" gene ...well, there is not JUST ONE gene responsible for black. There are 2 main genes you look at for determing Black, they are the "Extension" locus and the "Agouti" locus -BOTH have to be in the "right combination" for a horse to present Black [aaEe or aaEE-the latter being Homozygous Black] -and ONLY TESTING will determine if a horse is Homozygous Black (I don't care HOW many horses back in the pedigree are balck OR how many foals produced are black -you've got to test to be sure).
If you would like a basic overview (that does not discuss the Agouti), you can click here; http://www.breezyacresarabians.com/Color%20Genetics.htm
 

Anonymous
Posted From: 66.226.232.210
Posted on Monday, July 12, 2004 - 02:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You know, I was thinking the same thing. <|:-)
 

horselady
Posted From: 67.70.69.94
Posted on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 01:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was looking at a homozygous black and white tobiano filly that is advertised not to carry the red gene. Is this the same as being homozygous black? I have asked the breeder but got a whole bunch of "who shot John" and am not really any further ahead. Bred to another Homozygous black horse... would all resulting foals be black or black gene based such as Bay etc.
 

Cathy
Posted From: 67.129.136.122
Posted on Wednesday, December 15, 2004 - 09:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know how they can claim she does not carry the red gene unless 1.She has been tested or 2.She is out of two homozygous black parents that have been tested. If the filly truely is homozygous black she will always have a black based foal no matter what color she is bred to homozygous or not.
 

horselady
Posted From: 67.70.69.94
Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 07:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is what the seller wrote:
Some people refer to this as homozygous for black and last year this is what everyone referred to as homozygous black... Now, technically, there is more advanced testing available to tell if the horse carries bay or black gene, and dominant or recessive black gene. We have not had that test done on her I just want to be technically accurate in advertising the info on her... although most people refer to this as homozygous black, it is technically a horse that does not carry the red gene. She carries two black genes or a black and a bay gene, given that she is black. She will not pass a red gene to her offspring.
What do you think? Will this horse always throw black, or is there a chance of a bay? I am looking for a horse that will give me black foals.
 

horselady
Posted From: 67.70.69.94
Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 08:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Additional information: I did manage to find info on the stud.. he is homozygous black and homozygous tobiano. I am still waiting to find out some information on the dam. There was nothing on the website about her.
 

horselady
Posted From: 67.70.69.94
Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 11:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

More Info;

The dam of this filly was a black and white tobiano. Not homozygous for tobiano or black.
 

Sandy
Posted From: 4.227.133.155
Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 12:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Horselady,
It sounds to me like the mare in question is considered homozygous black, meaning she will have black based foals. Not necessarily ALL black foals. But just no chestnut foals. I think what the sellers were trying to get to in a round about way is telling you that she has been tested and found not to carry the red gene, but she hasn't been tested to see if she carries the bay gene.
So with the testing that has been done so far on this mare, all you know for sure is that you won't get red foals. But yes, bay is a possibility.
 

horselady
Posted From: 67.70.69.94
Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 02:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just received this from the seller:

It is possible that she could produce a bay, black , buckskin, grulla, - all of her offspring will be black gene based.

I guess that answers that question.... now... if I was to purchase this filly and somewhere down the road breed to a homozygous black stud.... would I get a homozygous black foal, or just a black based foal such as bay or buckskin etc.
 

Cathy
Posted From: 67.129.138.2
Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 02:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If she is homozygous, and bred to a homozygous for the same gene all offspring will be homozygous for that gene. In this case that would be black. Bay horses can be homozygous for black. It is the agouti gene that causes bay, so a bay or even a buckskin can be homozygous black.
 

horselady
Posted From: 67.70.69.94
Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 03:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ok thanks Cathy. This genetic stuff is very interesting. Im learing alot off this site. :-)
 

troubleontheprairie
Posted From: 203.194.42.99
Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 07:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've always found the whole palomino color determination in foals very interesting. Since if you breed two palominos it is not always so that you will get a palomino, some foals can come out sorrel or chestnut. What if you have to heterozygous blacks, then what happens is there a crop out in some cases?
 

horselady
Posted From: 67.70.69.94
Posted on Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 10:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm anxiously waiting for my copy of Equine Color Genetics to reach me here in Canada. Should be a great read. Too bad this book is out of print. Makes it hard to find now without paying a king's randsom for a used one. I would like to read more about the black gene... and whether black is dominant even in heterozygous horses. I would like to breed for black and white tobianos since I already have a Bay broodmare which will give me some of the bay and red based horses.
My homozygous Bay is bred to a flaxen gened chestnut QH, so I am figuring on either a Bay or a Chestnut, but since the bay has a red gene, and the stud has two red genes, I figure I am probably in for a chestnut paint out of it.
My breeding stock paint sorrel is bred to a black and white homozygous tobiano, who is known to throw red.... so who knows what we might get out of that.... but again, I am figuring it is probably going to be red based. Thus, my questions about homozygous black, as my next mare or filly I want to stay away from the red gene.
 

Sandy
Posted From: 4.228.243.179
Posted on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 11:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"What if you have to heterozygous blacks, then what happens is there a crop out in some cases?"

I'm not exactly sure what it is you're asking with this question, but if you're asking whether or not a palomino can crop out of this breeding, the answer is no. The cream gene must be present in one of the parents in order for there to be a palomino foal.
Hetero black bred to hetero black can produce black, brown, bay and chestnut.

Horselady:
The best way to stay away from red based horses is to breed to a stallion that is homozygous for black. I am also breeding for black and white and my previous stallion was heterozygous black, but out of 12 foals that he produced for me he only produced one chestnut foal, and that is when he was bred to a chestnut. All of his other foals were black or very dark bay, even out of chestnut mares. I guess I just got lucky with him. But I have recently changed my broodmare band, got rid of all of my chestnut mares and currently have mares that are all black based. And I now have two stallions that are both black, although one of them I know is heterozygous black because his dam is chestnut, sire is black. The other stallion is out of two black parents, but I have not had him tested to see whether he is homozygous black, but I think the chances are good, considering his sire has never produced a chestnut.
 

horselady
Posted From: 67.70.69.94
Posted on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 12:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sandy:

The breeder wrote back that you don't have to have two homozygous black parents to have a homozygous black foal... the father is homozygous black,homozygous tobiano, the mother was just a black and white tobiano.

I thought you had to have two homozygous blacks to guarantee a homozygous black foal. This breeder stated that as long as both parents had the black gene, the foal would be homozygous.

Here's another question. .. Since a Bay can be homozygous black, how can it's body be chestnut or brown? I know the Agouti gene limits the black to the points, but does the Agouti over rule the black gene completely on the body?
 

horselady
Posted From: 67.70.69.94
Posted on Friday, December 17, 2004 - 12:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One more thing: If the stud I was to use to breed to either a black and white homozygous tobiano or my pregnant bay homozygous tobiano was only minimally colored, would the foals also be minimally colored, or would the placement of color have nothing to do with how much black or white the stud has? This stud I am considering is supposed to be homozygous tobiano, homozygous black and is a black and white. He doesnt have alot of white on him, at least not what I would call alot. ( white on his rump, a little splash on his neck, white and black tail, white stripe on his nose and white up to his knees. ) rest of him is pitch black.

If I bred him to my homozygous bay, what colors do you think we may get>

If I bred a homozygous tobiano buckskin to my bay, would the colors be any different?
 

Sandy
Posted From: 4.227.172.111
Posted on Saturday, December 18, 2004 - 01:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Horselady,
Okay, no, both parents do not have to be homozygous black to get a homozygous black foal, but, you're not guaranteed a homozygous black foal. If one parent is homo black then of course that parent is definitely going to pass the black gene, if the other parent is hetero black, then it has the possibility of of passing its black gene 50% of the time. In order to be homo black, the horse has to have 2 black genes.
As for a bay being homo for black, it's because a bay is a black horse that has been genetically altered to have a lighter, mostly red body color and head leaving black in the legs, mane and tail. The genetic alteration is brought about by genes in the "A" series, which are your agouti genes.
Here's the breakdown:
A+ restricts black to the points, mane and tail, but makes them indistinct
AA also restricts black to the points mane and tail
AT removes black from the soft parts
Aa has no influence (all black)

As for the homo Tobiano, it doesn't matter whether the horse is minimally colored or not, you will still get a Tobiano, and it shouldn't affect how much color you will get. It could be loud, or minimal. I have seen very loud homo Tobianos produce foals that were minimally colored and vice versa.

If you bred your homo Tobiano bay mare to a homo Tobiano homo black, you're definitely going to get a Tobiano foal and your base colors could be bay or black.

If you bred your homo Tobiano bay mare to a homo Tobiano buckskin, you are now throwing in the cream gene which can change things. The buckskin carries one cream gene which he will pass on 50% of the time. You still will get a Tobiano (which by the way, if you are breeding two homozygous Tobianos, the resulting foal will be homozgyous for Tobiano too) and the base colors could be black, bay or buckskin.
I bred my solid buckskin stallion to a black based Tovero mare and got a black Splash Overo. And this mare had never produced a black foal before. She is a silver dapple Tovero and had been bred to a black Tobiano and produced a silver dapple Tobiano. She was bred to a solid chestnut (whose sire was Tobiano) twice, and both times produced sorrel Tobianos. So, needless to say I was very surprised when she threw a black Overo this year. She is bred back to the same buckskin stallion for a foal in '05, so we'll see what we get this time. One of her sorrel daughters is also bred to the same bucskin stallion and I'm hoping for a palomino.
Anyway, hope that helped some :-)
 

horselady
Posted From: 67.70.69.94
Posted on Saturday, December 18, 2004 - 05:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Sandy LOL..... i will read it a few hundred more times and maybe some of that will sink in :P. This genetics stuff is really interesting. I guess in short theres no real way to guarantee a black and white foal with this bay possibility in both the homo black and homo buckskin studs. I never really considered bay to be part of the black family since most of the horse can be chestnut color except for the points.
Anyway, we are both expecting foals this May so it will be interesting to see what we both get, though I am expecting two chestnut tobianos this year and neither will be homozygous as the one of the mares is a breeding stock and the other homo mare is bred to a foundation QH.
2006 will be the year for getting that homo foal.
 

equinefem
Posted From: 203.221.231.7
Posted on Saturday, December 18, 2004 - 09:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK see if you can give me the percentages on this breeding. A liver chestnut overo stallion...I think he's liver but may be chestnut with sooty gene???(Dam bay -Sire Chestnut overo) x Solid black/brown mare (looks almost black but for a few brown hairs around the nose) (Dam black/brown -sire black overo not homozygous for black)
 

Sandy
Posted From: 4.228.243.254
Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 01:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Any time you breed chestnut X black there is a 50% chance for chestnut and 50% chance for black (black based). Browns are mistakenly confused sometimes for bay also as they usually do have some brown in the soft parts. The liver chestnut has been modified by the sooty gene, but is still genetically a chestnut.
As for the Overo coloration, do you know whether the overo stallion has been tested for LWO? Overos that are carriers of LWO have a higher percentage for throwing color. If he does not have LWO, your chances are 50/50 for getting color.

Horselady:
Don't worry, you'll get that homo foal yet! I also find the color genetics interesting too. It's just been within the last couple of years that I've really started getting into it, and I learn more and more all the time.
 

horselady
Posted From: 64.230.181.244
Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 03:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think i read somewhere that you can take a few strands of mane hair and send it for testing to find out whether the horse has the bay or black gene, as in the case of my homozygous bay. Is this true? and what else might this testing tell me?
 

Cathy
Posted From: 67.129.136.122
Posted on Sunday, December 19, 2004 - 09:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know of 2 labs that do color testing, and yes you only have to submit hair with the root attached. They are USDavis and U of Kentucky. I used UK to test my palomino stallion for the agouti gene.
The genes they test for are red factor, agouti,cream, and lethal white overo.
UK is cheaper for one test while UCD is cheaper if you test for 2 or more on a single horse.
 

horselady
Posted From: 70.48.53.171
Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 05:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wonder if there are any labs in Canada. I was looking at the USDavis site and I would have to go through alot of paperwork etc to send hair down to the states from Canada. UGH>> i just went through all that getting this Bay mare up to Ottawa Ontario from PA.

If I was to do this hair test, what would they be able to tell me? COuld they tell me if this Bay mare has the bay gene, or the black gene? What else might I find out?
 

horselady
Posted From: 70.48.53.171
Posted on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 05:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does anyone know if what I am reading is correct.... I have a bay tobiano bred to a flaxen chestnut... from what I have read, bay is dominant over chestnut. On the other hand, it seems when breeding to a chestnut you always have a 50% chance of getting a chestnut.

Has anyone bred this combination and if so, what did you end up with. Additional info... the flaxen chestnut has two dark chestnut parents, and the bay has a bay damn and a buckskin sire. The buckskin sire has a buckskin and bay in his background. I don't have any information on the grandparents of the chestnut.
 

Sandy
Posted From: 4.227.133.80
Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 12:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi horselady:
I have bred a dark bay mare (sire was dark bay, dam was dun) to a chestnut stallion (both sire and dam chestnut) resulting foal was dark bay. Now I do not know whether or not the dark bay mare was homozygous for bay or not, but every foal she has had has been either dark bay or black.
Same with another bay mare (sire was chestnut, dam was bay) bred her to a dark chestnut stallion (colors of his sire and dam unknown) and resulting foal was a bay. This mare also always threw either bay or black foals, and she couldn't be homozygous for black or Agouti because her sire was chestnut.
Since your bay mare is out of a bay and a buckskin, I would say the chances are good that she may be homozygous for Agouti, or possibly black even. There is also the possibility that she could be what is considered as a black buckskin, so she could have the cream gene also, but the black is masking it. Has she ever had a foal before, and if so, what was the color of the foal and what color was the stallion she was bred to?
My neighbor had a mare who you could have sworn was a dark bay mare....she bred her to a chestnut with flaxen mane and tail and the resulting foal was a palomino! And this happened twice! One colt, one filly. My neighbor and I were both stunned when she had the first palomino, because you would have never guessed in a million years that her mare was carrying the cream gene. But when it happened the second time around, we knew it wasn't just a fluke and that her mare must have really been a black buckskin.
As for always having a 50% chance of getting a chestnut when breeding to a chestnut, that's true unless one of the parents is homozygous for black or Agouti.
Chestnut is the most recessive color, meaning it can show up just about anywhere, and black is the second most recessive.
 

horselady
Posted From: 70.48.53.171
Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 12:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Sandy;

I would much rather have a Bay than a Chestnut, and a black would be even better. I would probably fall over if she had a palomino!. She is a maiden mare so there is no foal history.
you can see pictures of her at www.customcolorhorse4u.com This is the lady I bought her from and she is still listed under Mares for Sale. Her name is Sierra's Lucky Chick.
The stud she is bred to is a Flaxen Chestnut and he is also on the website by the name of Wimpy King Leo's GOld. She explained to me that he is homozygous for flaxen but it is a recessive gene, and "Becky" would also have to have this gene for any resulting foals to be flaxen as well.

I would personally love any color other than Chestnut. On reading portions of Equine Color Genetics, I saw a chart near the back of the book that stated Chestnut x Bay usually gives Bay, sometimes Chestnut, slight chance of Black... if I am reading the chart properly.
Imagine me expecting two chestnut paints this summer and getting a bay or palomino or black LOL. I would drop dead!

I was wondering with Becky's sire( Sierra Dazzlem up) being a buckskin, and his sire being a black tobiano and damn being a palomino tobiano, there might be a cream gene hiding in her someplace that might surprise us in combination with the flaxen one we already know about. The palomino grandmom came out of Dixie Drummer boy, a bay Tobiano, and a QH.. so I am thinking there must be a cream gene someplace ... the other set of Great grandparents for Beckys dad were Black Tobiano and Bay solid, where the other side of the dam's pedigree is mostly QH's except for Zelda's Chick, who was a black tobiano going back 4 generations.

My other mare is also maiden, sorrel breeding stock out of a brown/white tobiano and a QH. The parents of the brown/white were black tobiano and black overo.... the parents of the QH were both QH's. She is bred to a black and white homozygous tobiano who'se parents were black tobiano and bay tobiano... grandparents on the black tobiano were both black tobianos, and parents of the bay were black overo and sorrel tobiano. This black and white homozygous tobiano has no offspring so I don't have any foaling history for him either.
It will be like Christmas in May, and again in July. We should take bets on what colors we are all going to get and see who is closest! I am off tonight to the barn to check for any foal movement on Becky. She was bred June 4 -12th so I am guessing she is somewhere around 200 days or so now.
Thanks for all your info Sandy ! You are a peach!
 

Sandy
Posted From: 4.228.252.171
Posted on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 02:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi horselady...Happy New Year everyone!

I looked at the pic of your mare, she is very pretty! She does look like a true bay, I can't see any evidence of cream in her from what I can tell from the pics.
The stallion she is bred to really almost looks like a palomino to me. I couldn't see anything that says what color his parents are. The pics that I could see of his foals are interesting tho. Looks like he produced a chestnut foal out of what looks like a dark bay mare and a palomino foal out of what looks like a palomino mare which to me says he does have a strong chestnut gene.

My bet is that you will have a good chance of getting a bay foal out of this cross, just from the appearance of your mare and the fact that neither of her parents are chestnut.
As for your sorrel mare that is bred to the black, I wouldn't even dare take a bet on that one...LOL, because my experience has been that anytime you breed black to chestnut/sorrel, there is a 50/50 chance of getting black/bay or chestnut.
Gosh, May seems like a long way off doesn't it? My first foal is due the end of March first part of April and I'm really hoping for a palomino or a buckskin. She is a cherry red chestnut bred to a buckskin and this is her first foal. Her dam is a silver bay and her sire was a liver chestnut. The buckskin stallion's sire was perlino and his dam was sorrel. (These are Miniature horses by the way).
Here's my website if you want to take a look.
www.angelfire.com/ut2/sbr
 

horselady
Posted From: 64.230.182.159
Posted on Sunday, January 02, 2005 - 02:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Happy New Year to you Sandy! and to everyone else!

The stud for Becky is a chestnut with two doses of a recessive flaxen gene, which makes him that color. I wish he was a palomino. I do love the color of him ! Both his parents were chestnuts and there were no pictures the breeder had on computer or elsewhere to show me what they looked like. I know the damn was put down last year due to breaking her shoulder and the sire is supposedly still alive and kicking somewhere in the US at the ripe old age of 23.

The dark bay mare that produced the chestnut is Becky's half sister. She is what is called a smokey black. Her first filly was also black but she was bred to a different stud in 2003.

The other stud on the site on the Stallion link, Dazzle'em Dandy, is Becky's full brother and they have just started to breed him this last spring. It will be interesting to see what kind of foals he produces.

I took a look at your site. You sure have some beautiful horses. I love all those foal pictures! Looks like you have tons of experience in foaling. I am pretty nervous about my two horses but I guess we will get through it one way or the other :-)
 

equinefem
Posted From: 203.220.224.160
Posted on Sunday, January 09, 2005 - 04:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Sandy,
I know I have a 50/50 chance of overo my stallion is overo but I was curious as to the different chances of base colour. I have gotten one bay overo and one bay solid from breeding these two in the past and am not quite sure on the percentage chance of black,brown,bay,chestnut I wondered what the ratio would be.
It's always a gamble isn't it.

Now I'm going to start something...I hope you don't take offence...but...I disagree with you on one point. Actually I've had this discussion somewhere else on the board in the past.

Maybe it's because the process for registering Paints is not clear. As far as I know they either get lumped into Tobiano or Overo for registration purposes.

My point is...all Overos carry the lethal gene.

If a horse is tested OLWS negative it is not an overo.
It is more likely a sabino. The two are often confused.
Sabino's often have high white stockings(often on all four legs) which can be spear shaped at the ends. They can also have body splashes and facial markings..though not always present. These body markings though usually travel upwards on the body where as in the overo (meaning egg shaped) the pattern travels in a horizontal manner.
In the overo pattern the legs are more often than not solid in colour..though other factors
may cause white.

It is when two overos are bred together that a 1 in 4 chance of a lethal white foal occurs.

Breeding a sabino with an overo increases chances of colour and is quite safe to do.
I personally do not like to mix the patterns and so breed only for overo.
I feel that so many people are mixing the patterns now that it should soon be mandatory to test for the lethal white gene.

Also mixing the patterns increased the likelyhood of a mostly white horse when the object should be to breed contrasting colours.

I don't know if the Sabino pattern is recognised in the USA yet maybe this adds to the confusion.

Aside from white stockings and body markings it can also be expressed as a sort of speckling on the body which is often confused with roan but a true roan will have a dark head and dark on lower legs.
 

Sandy
Posted From: 67.50.40.182
Posted on Monday, January 10, 2005 - 06:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

equinefem:
Yes, it is always a gamble when you're dealing with one parent who is a chestnut, whether liver, or with the sooty gene. You still have the 50% chance of chestnut, unless of course the other horse is homo for black or agouti.
As for the overo thing....in the US all horses that are sabino and splash, are considered overo. That is why I say that people who have a horse classified as "overo" should have it tested for lethal white, because some folks who say they have an overo horse may not know whether it is a "true" overo or just a sabino or splash, or maybe a mix.
The Sabino pattern is indeed recognized in the states, but we are also beginning to find out that Sabino isn't a gene that is common to Paints/Pintos only. The sabino gene is the gene responsible for any and all "normal" white markings on a horse. We are now discovering that it is okay to say that an Appaloosa for instance does have the sabino gene if it has extensive leg white and blazes and snips, eventhough the Appaloosa does not have any Paint or Pinto in its pedigree at all.
But in the APHA, Sabino is classified as an overo.
 

horselady
Posted From: 64.230.153.197
Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 09:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Posted from above :

****If the dam is black (heterozygous or Homozygous) and you cross her with a Homozygous Black, you will automatically get a black***

Is this true or is Julie talking about a black based foal such as bay etc.

I am looking at a black and white homozygous tobiano whose parents are both black, but has not been tested for homo black. I thought that there was still a chance of a chestnut or a bay from this cross.

Does homozygosity for black make the chances for a black foal ( not black based) any stronger than just crossing two black and white tobianos?
 

Cathy
Posted From: 63.228.245.23
Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 10:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

horselady if both parents are black you can not get bay as neither parent will be carrying the agouti gene.
Crossing two Hetero blacks will give you a black foal 75& of the time and chestnut 25%. A hetero to a homo will be 100% black.
 

horselady
Posted From: 64.230.153.197
Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 11:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok just so i get this straight ( I always assumed that chestnut could sneak in with a hetero black) -If I had a homozygous tobiano that was black and white, and crossed it with a homo black, homo tobiano - the result would be black ALL the time. I dont mean black based... but an actual black and white tobiano?

That makes sense Cathy about the agouti gene. Obviously if agouti is dominant and the horse had it, it would be Bay instead of a black. :-)
 

Cathy
Posted From: 63.228.245.23
Posted on Tuesday, January 11, 2005 - 01:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You got it!! :-) It only takes one copy of the black gene to get black as it is dominant. The same is true of the tobiano gene. So even if you crossed the Homo black Homo tobiano to a solid chestnut (that didn't carry the agouti) you would still get a black tobiano. Cathy
 

equinefem
Posted From: 203.221.230.90
Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 07:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It regard to your post to me Sandy, It is even more confusing when in America people call some overos-splash ...as besides the sabino, overo and tobiano patterns there is one called splashed white....which is totally different to overo.
The horse actually looking as though it has waded through white paint so it covers the legs and under belly. Also face markings with this one....these horses are often deaf.
Must be very confusing to new comers.
Also it is easy for the overo gene to be hidden when colour patterns are mixed.
 

Cathy
Posted From: 63.228.245.23
Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 09:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

In North America the 3 patterns frame,sabino, and splashed white are lumped in one category called Overo. Over time and with more education this is changing. Also splashed is rare in North America but is appearing more. Cathy
 

Sandy
Posted From: 4.227.133.51
Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 12:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

***if both parents are black you can not get bay as neither parent will be carrying the agouti gene.***

I find that statement interesting as I have bred two hetero black horses together and HAVE gotten dark bay foals. They have not been your standard color bays, they are very dark as to look almost black, but do have the light around the eyes, the muzzle and in the flanks, therefore classifying them as "dark bay" rather than black.

***A hetero to a homo will be 100% black.***

How can that be?
A homozygous black does carry two copies of the black gene, so therefore will always pass one copy of that to their offspring.
A heterozygous black carries only one copy of the black gene and let's say just for this example, carries one copy of the chestnut gene.
If the hetero passes its one copy of the chestnut gene then wouldn't there still be a 25% chance of the offspring being something other than black, depending on where the genes fell? The resulting offspring would have one copy of black from the homo parent and one copy of chestnut from the hetero parent.
 

Cathy
Posted From: 63.228.245.23
Posted on Saturday, January 15, 2005 - 03:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sandy the sooty gene can make bays look black, so there is a possibility that one of the black parents was in fact a sooty bay which would explain the bay foal. The agout gene restricts black to the points on black horses so if they have the gene they will not be black.
On point two, black is dominant over the red gene, so if they have one of each ( which the majority of all blacks do) they will still be black. Cathy
 

Sandy
Posted From: 4.228.252.143
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 12:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So, if black is dominant over the red gene, why is it when you breed a black to a chestnut, you have a 50% chance of getting a chestnut?
I had a chestnut mare whose sire was chestnut, dam was black. I bred this mare to a black stallion twice, first foal was a chestnut, second foal was black. Definitely a proven 50/50 chance for black or chestnut.
As for breeding the two hetero blacks and getting a dark bay: I know for sure the stallion is definitely black and so is the mare. This black mare had been bred to a chestnut and produced a black foal. She was bred to a black twice, first foal dark bay, second foal jet black. She is currently in foal to a different black stud for '05, so we'll see what the outcome of that is.
Her sire is black, her dam a dun.
Maybe my dark bay foal was indeed black with mealy? This filly is a 3 year old now and I would call her black, but she does have just the slightest tint of brown around her eyes and in the soft part of her muzzle, not in the flanks though. But her papers state that she is a dark bay or brown.
 

Cathy
Posted From: 63.228.245.23
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 01:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Most black horses are heterozygous for black. They have one black gene and one red gene. You got chestnut when the stallion passed the red gene and not the black. The 50/50 applies to each breeding not over all foal crop. In otherwords each mating has a 50/50 chance to produce black or red.
Sandy have both the sire and dam been tested for the red gene and agouti? That is the only way to know for sure if they are truely black.
You are correct that black with mealy is called seal brown. That could also be the cause of the foals coloration.
You could have the foal color tested, and then you would know for sure. Cathy
 

horselady
Posted From: 64.230.153.197
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 04:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK now im confused.... one statement says hetero to homo black gives black 100% of the time, then the next statement you have 25% of a chestnut foal (which is what I was thinking)... so which one is more accurate?

I got my mane hair today while out at the ranch with my bay. I am sending that to U of Davis to test for agouti. I know she has one red gene, and one black gene, and one agouti. I want to speak to someone at Davis before I send this all in to make sure they will check for 2 agouti modifiers. I know she has one. What I need to know is if she has 2 or not.

Hey Cathy !!! I read that chapter 2 a few more times. Clear as mud. Im looking for equine color genetics for dummies :P~~~~
 

Cathy
Posted From: 63.228.245.23
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 05:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

horselady hetero black mated to homo black will be 100% black offspring.
When you request a test from UCDavis they always check both.
I just realized we may be tatlking about different books by Sponenberg. Do you have the first edition or the second? He named both his books Equine Color Genetics. Cathy
 

horselady
Posted From: 64.230.153.197
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 10:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Cathy;

I have the second edition of the book.I've read Chapter 2 a few times over and looked at the charts at the back of the book regarding the foal color outcome with the parental colors listed.

I emailed the lady at Davis but she didnt get back to me yet regarding the agouti test. I want to make sure that they will test for more than one agouti gene since I already know she has one. (she's a bay ) IF they dont, there's not much point in sending the hair in.

I have read elsewhere in this category that agouti is dominant and if the horse has even one agouti it will be a bay - if that is true, wouldn't all bays only have bay's no matter what it was bred to?

Elsewhere I read that black is dominant - so does that mean that if you cross a black and white tobiano with a chestnut breeding stock, you would expect a black foal? I would expect that the chestnut would have two chestnut genes and therefore pass one of those, but the black may have either 2 black genes or 1 black and 1 chestnut, and could pass the chestnut gene instead of the black, and boom... ya gotta chestnut out of that mix......
But what if the black passed his black gene and the chestnut passed its red gene. Would the resulting foal be black because it has been suggested on here that black is dominant over chestnut?
 

Cathy
Posted From: 63.228.245.23
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 10:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well I found part of our problem. I have the first book. That is chapter 2 I was refereing to. I'm sooo sorry . :-( I have bought the 2nd but haven't yet received it.
Remember agouti only effects black. If a chestnut has the agouti it will not show, and they can still pass it on, but yes if a black has the agouti they will be bay.
You are getting this very well!! One black with one chestnut is black. If the hetero passed the chestnut to a chestnut that is what you get.
Isn't this SO fun? LOL Cathy
 

horselady
Posted From: 64.230.153.197
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 11:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Im having a ball learning all this stuff. I know im missing major pieces of this puzzle still, but I know with some good info and alot of PATIENT teachers :P~~~ I should be able to get a hold of this whole agouti thing as well as the hetero and homo black stuff.

The second chapter of the second edition is still black bay and agouti, so I suspect that the first and second editions aren't too much different.

I am going to try to find an hour or two tomorrow to re-read it all and see if I can figure out what I might be missing along the way

Heres a brain teaser for ya..... if a black and white tobiano doesnt carry the agouti or it would be expressed in a bay, ...... how can two black and whites have a bay as referred to in the back of the book in the color chart?

ALso, how can two black horses have a chestnut foal if black is dominant over chestnut?
 

Cathy
Posted From: 63.228.245.23
Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 11:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK the first part of your teaser is really complicated, and is because one of the parents is not black, or the foal is not bay.
The second part is easy. Most blacks are heterozygous which means they carry one black, and one red gene. So if they both pass the red gene walla!! you have a chestnut from 2 blacks. :-) Cathy
 

horselady
Posted From: 64.230.153.197
Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 07:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

oookkk.. I think I got that one... now, if you cross a homozygous black and a heterozygous black, and the hetero passes the red and the homo has to pass a black, in that case the foal is going to be black because black is dominant? If that is true, that foal will have a red gene and a black gene and would be heterozygous for black again, possibly passing a red gene down the line and having a chestnut foal... is that right?
 

Cathy
Posted From: 63.228.245.23
Posted on Monday, January 17, 2005 - 09:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You got it. :-O Cathy
 

horselady
Posted From: 64.230.153.197
Posted on Tuesday, January 18, 2005 - 08:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I found a great place on the web to look at foal colors. It is on the UC Davis website and gives a chart of parent colors (dominant and recessive genes) and the expected outcomes. Its a really good source of info if someone is wondering what color their foal might be ! www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/service/horse/coatcolor.html#agouti (click on the table link on agouti paragraph.
 

Julie Lawler
Posted From: 207.218.234.213
Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 12:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cathy,
I appreciate you explaining a statement I made in a <much> earlier posting (posted July 12, 2004) ...that "one will ALWAYS get a black when crossing a ?Black to a Homozygous black."
You did a wonderful job explaining it. As an owner of a Homozygous Black stallion, I think the <correct> information exchange on this topic is great. People can better decide just how they want to breed.
Thanks,
Julie
If others want the simple explanation of "Homozygous Black", they can click here;
http://www.breezyacresarabians.com/Color%20Genetics.htm
 

Cathy
Posted From: 63.228.245.23
Posted on Thursday, February 03, 2005 - 01:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow Julie Thank You!! That is the nicest comment I have ever receved :-) Cathy
 

jim holmes (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 63.157.36.68
Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 07:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is no "bay gene". Bay is a combination of black and an Agouti. Black pairs who produce bays are impossible. One parent has to have an Agouti; therefore, one parent must be bay. You can't always tell by looking.
 

Cathy
Nursing Foal
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 17
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, May 10, 2005 - 09:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

there is a reletivly rare allele at the extention locus which is dominant black. It in essence overrides agouti.
 

jim holmes (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 63.157.36.80
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 01:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cathy, Can you give me a way to get to the research on that. I have heard several references to a "dominant black" but can't find any proof. I think a French research came up with it. In the Walking Horse breed a spotted horse called Spotted Alen Again is supposed to be dominant black.
 

Cathy
Nursing Foal
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 19
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 01:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It is supossed to be more prevalent in the arabian breed. Dr. Sponenberg discussed it in his second edition of Equine Color. As far as the actual research I don't know.
 

YT (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
Posted From: 207.53.228.127
Posted on Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 11:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Can a homozygous black have parents of other colors than black? IE: Can a homozygous black be sired by a black and out of a chestnut? Or sired by a bay and out of a black? etc.
 

Cathy
Yearling
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 92
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, January 18, 2006 - 11:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The bay and black yes. The black and chestnut no.
To be homozygous they have to get one black gene from each parent. Black is dominant over red so if they are red they have no black gene to pass on.
A bay is a black horse with an agouti gene, so they have a black gene to pass on.
 

Kathee McGuire
Weanling
Username: Katheekj

Post Number: 27
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 09:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have been recently studying genetic possibilities. Tell me if I have this correct - If I breed my bay mare to a cremello stallion, will I definately get either a bucksin or a palimino?
 

Cathy
Yearling
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 93
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, January 19, 2006 - 11:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kathee you can also get smokey black.
 

Kathee McGuire
Weanling
Username: Katheekj

Post Number: 28
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Friday, January 20, 2006 - 09:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cathy - are they all even percentages?
 

Cathy
Yearling
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 94
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, January 20, 2006 - 10:59 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The % are variable based on if the mare is heterozygous or homozygous for back and/or agouti, and if the cremelo carries the agouti gene.
 

Kathee McGuire
Weanling
Username: Katheekj

Post Number: 31
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Friday, January 20, 2006 - 12:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That makes sense. Let me ask you this and remember, I am a true novice at this! When I look at the color charts, everyting indicates solid colors. What determines the paint color or the appaloosa color? Also, is there a beginner book that explains this? I have read many web articles, but they usually assume a baseline knowledge level that I don't always have to truly comprehend their article. I think this is just fascinating!
The reason I ask it that I have bred my bucksin mare to a black/white paint that has a 9 year history of producing some variation of black coated offspring (don't know if he has actually been tested). I am hoping for a paint baby.
 

Cathy
Yearling
Username: Cathy

Post Number: 95
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Friday, January 20, 2006 - 02:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are specific genes for different paint/pinto coat patterns as well as appaloosa. A good book is Equine Color Genetics by D. Phillip Sponenberg. It can be pretty technical but does start with the basics.
Also this site is very good. www.equinecolor.com
have fun learning. :-)
It does sound like the paint stud could be homozygous for black. Buckskin is also a black base, so you have a good chance of a black base foal.
 

Jenn
Weanling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 22
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 08:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Paint Horse Association also has useful info.
http://www.apha.com/forms/guidebooks.html
 

Kathee McGuire
Weanling
Username: Katheekj

Post Number: 36
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 11:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jenn - the Paint Horse site was really helpful about genetics in general and especially regarding paints. Do you (or anyone)know the answer to this - if the tobiano stud has only thrown black varitations and most of those are tobiano, can he be homozygous for black and hetero for tobiano?
Cathy - this web site referenced the same book you recommended...I am going to order it. Thanks!
 

Jenn
Weanling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 23
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 01:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quite possibly. Genetic testing is the only way of knowing for sure.
 

Jenn
Weanling
Username: Jenn

Post Number: 25
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 21, 2006 - 07:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kathee, APHA was giving away free horse color and pattern posters. (I have them hanging in my home office) If you are interested, here is a link to the info. I am not possitive that they still have them, but they still have it on their website.
http://www.apha.com/pressroom/2004/04_freeposters.html



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