I am breeding my mare to a stallion, Dream In Gold. He is a palomino thoroughbred. Both of his parents are palominos. My mare is a bay. Her sire was bay and her dam was palomino. Do I have a better chance in getting a buckskin or palomino? What chances do I have? Thanks.
Hmmm... let me see. First of all, your baby has a 50% chance of inheriting the creme gene from Dream in Gold. If it does inherit the creme gene, it will be a buckskin or palomino or smokey black depending on the base color (chestnut, bay, or black). I think you will most likely get either a chestnut or a palomino. I think there's about a 25% chance of getting a bay or buckskin and about a 25% (or less) chance of getting black or smokey black. Would you like more details? Liz
Anonymous
Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 01:13 am:
To determine your foal's color probability, you must first determine the probability of it's base coat color and from there, determine the probablity of secondary color factors.
The primary color locus of a bay is Bb. A palomino, which is a diluted chestnut, has the base color locus of bb. With each parent contributing a loci to the foal the foal can receive Bb,Bb, bb, or bb. In other words, the probability of primary coat color for the foal is 50% bay (Bb) and 50% chestnut(bb).
As Liz mentioned, the foal has a 50% chance of inheriting the cremello (Ccr) loci from the sire. (Inheritance of this loci is independant of the primary color inheritance.) The cremello loci is responsible for diluting brown color. Should a Bay receive this loci, its brown body color would become diluted. A buckskin would result. Should a chestnut receive the Ccr loci, then the brown body and brown mane&tail would become diluted. The result would be a palomino.
Your foals color probabilities are: 25% each of bay, buckskin, chestnut, and palomino.
Liz : )
Posted on Thursday, April 03, 2003 - 03:03 pm:
Would there be a chance of black if the mare passes on the black gene but not the bay gene? The black would take dominance over the chestnut and the foal would be black. Is that right?
Anonymous
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 12:18 am:
No, there is no probability of a black foal. Primary coat color is determined by one of two pigments - Eumelanin, commonaly referred to as the "Black" color family; and Phaeomelanin, which is commonanly referred to as the "brown" or "red" color family. The Eumelanin loci is denoted as "B", while Phaeomelanin is denoted in lowercase "b" because Eumelanin is dominate, or expressed, over Phaeomelanin. These two loci, and only these two loci, are known to determine the primary coat color of either the black family or brown family.
The primary body color of the horse is determined by the locus, which is a pair loci. One loci is inherited from the sire, the other loci from the dam. Primary coat colors include: BB - black Bb - Bay or Brown (which can look like black) bb - Chestnut/Sorrel All other colors - such as gray, palomino, buckskin, grulla, dun - are variations of these basic colors.
Celia bred a palomino stallion, which is a diluted chestnut, (bb) to a Bay mare (Bb). The sire contributed a "b" loci so there is no probablity the foal could be black. If the sire were a buckskin, their would be a probability. The mare could contribute either a "B" or "b" loci. If she contributed the "B" loci, the foals phenotype would be Bb or bay. If the mare contributed the "b" loci, then the foal would have the bb phenotype, which is chestnut.
Once primary coat color probability has been determined, then other gene loci can be analyzed, such as the Cremello loci, the dun loci (which is different from cremello loci), the appearance of black, location of black, color intensity, Flaxing of mane or tail, light underbelly, Tobiano, etc.
Sandy
Posted on Friday, April 04, 2003 - 11:54 am:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there is no such thing as a palomino Thoroughbred. Every thing I have ever read on color genetics states that a true TB will never have the creme gene. So, Celia, are you sure that this "palomino" TB that you're breeding to isn't just a chestnut with a flaxen mane and tail? Or a very light sorrel with flaxen mane and tail? Do some research, and I'm sure you'll find what I have said is true, that TBs do not carry a creme gene. Unless of course it is a cross out, and therefore not a pure TB, but rather an Appendix. It's just something you might want to look at for determining what color of foal you might get. Here is an excerpt taken from the book called: Horse Color Explained. "Thoroughbreds are sometimes mistakenly referred to as palominos. These cannot be regarded as palominos because no cremello dilution (Ccr) exists in this breed."
I thought that there were no colored palominos as well, but I have done a much research, and as far back in the pedigree, they said the parents were palomino but registered in the Jockey Club palomino, and smokey black was registered as black and buckskin as bay... Everyone may would like to check this website out www.doubledilute.com it has stuff about colored thoroughbreds in the message board and the stallion part... Email me at chiconahorse@yahoo.com if you would like to talk about this...for I am eager to learn more about the palomino coloring or if there cannot be, and someone just did this to have colored TB???
Thanks guys, but I'd figure it would have a small chance of getting smokey black, because it has happened to other bay horses... so there can be a chance of getting a smokey black...
Celia, I think you are right. I'm pretty sure you have a chance of black and smokey black- though not a very big chance. Smokey black is the result of getting a black with the creme gene as well.
Anonymous
Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 12:02 am:
Please keep in mind that a smokey black is genotype Bbcr while black is BB. Though smokey black and brown horses may appear to us as very similiar to black horses, genotypically they are very different colors.
Liz : )
Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 03:50 am:
Are you sure? That doesn't match up to the research I've done so far. Am I finding incomplete info? Where did you get yours?
Anonymous
Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 10:35 pm:
I learned about coat color genetics in genetic and equine classes as an undergrad and continued with the study in grad school.
Genetics can be terribly confusing especially since the different breeds often use different words to describe the same "shade" of color. Where did you get your info? If you like and I can take a look at it and help clear up some of the confusion.
Cathy Posted From: 67.250.112.69
Posted on Wednesday, July 16, 2003 - 10:55 am:
I realize this post is several months old, but I just found this site. Celia you are correct. You can get a black foal. Bay is a black horse with the agouti gene that restricts the black to the points. If the dam does not pass this gene on, and does pass the black gene you get a black foal.
keystonefoxtrotters Posted From: 66.71.221.125
Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 11:49 am:
Celia, have you had the foal? Wondering what you did get for color... Traci
Celia Posted From: 24.98.62.68
Posted on Friday, May 07, 2004 - 11:48 am:
Hey,
I have not had the foal, lol. My mare is 9 months now, but she isn't pregnant to the same stallion I was planning on breeding her to. I decided to go with a homozygous arabian. So my chances are getting either black or bay. Next year, however, I will be breeding the palomino Thoroughbred, Dream In Gold. lol. I haven't been on this site for a few weeks or months for that matter... lol
Joanna Posted From: 12.32.45.155
Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 10:37 pm:
Celia, Did you have the foal yet?
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