I am attempting to breed my mare to a Friesian (which I'm now finding out is probably a bad idea because they ship bad, but here's the story). My letter from the stallion owner said he put quite a few foals on the ground via live cover but this was the first year they were collecting his semen. He states they had it tested and it tested strong for shipping. The vet ordered the first shipment which arrived the day after it was collected and said the sample has <10% motility. Unfortunatly my mare did not ovulate and we had to order a second shipment. It also arrived at less than 10% and the second dose of it, when given, was less than 1% motile. In the contract it states "A dose of cooled semen is defined as a single insemination unit, containing approximately 800 million total normal sperm, which upon proper thawing contains no less than 500 million motile sperm." (Another issue seems to be mention thawing of cooled semen in the contract). They did not include any paperwork with the first shipment, I'm not sure about the second, however in the contract it states to strictly follow the protocol furnished with the sperm. The vet notified the stallion owner as to the problem with the motility but he hasn't responded.
Sooo... What can I do. I doubt my mare will take with the dose of <1%. I am seriously concerned about trying again and accruing vet bills only to recieve another poor shipment, so do I get a guarantee from the stallion owner that if the shipment isn't better that he pay any vet bills and collection fees (he wants me to pay for the second collection that she already recieved, should I have to pay for that since we ordered the first too early, even though both shipments were bad?) Or do I request that we call the whole breeding off and request he refund money (if so all or a portion). There is also a live foal guarantee in the contract, does that make a difference? I haven't yet spoken with him, I want to find out from those with more experience, on both the stallion and mare side, where I stand in all of this. Worse comes to worse I can accept that I really screwed up going with an untested stallion, and will have learned a lesson, but would still like to not get totally wrung out when I don't think it's all my fault.
Jos can probably give you some valuable information on the stats of semen evaluation pre & post shipping, evaluation and so on. He's the guru and quite knowledgable.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm not aware that the Friesian breed per-se ships better or worse than any other breed....but I could be wrong. Truth or Myth??
It sounds as if you are having serious doubts regarding this breeder/stallion. As such, it would be best for you to contact the individual in charge and go over your concerns.
It may be a good idea to ask the stallion owner if he keeps a "test sample" in his lab when he ships semen. Some collection stations do this in order to determine if the stallions ship well during the breeding season. If so, the samples should be comparable. If there is a difference, perhaps there is an issue during transport??? Certainly there is a clarity issue about "thawing" since cooled semen does not require that step . Some stallion owners/stations will provide additional shipments of semen when determined by a licensed DVM to have a "dead" shipment at arrival. You will have to discuss this with the stallion owner. The stallion owner is highly unlikely to reimburse you for expensed incurred for breeding, collection, shipments, etc. These expenses are pretty much considered a "given". I know people who have spent thousands in breeding/vet/shipping fees only to end up with an open mare. Kind of like going to Vegas...roll the dice and hope you hit the jackpot... The most you may possibly expect to get in return would be your breeding fee...and that may be suspect..you would need to check your contract. Live foal guarantees are great, but only in the face of a mare in foal. This protects you if your mare does conceive and then aborts, or if the foal dies shortly after birth (again, check your contract...they are all different). But this does NOT protect you if she does not conceive. What you do need to determine is where you stand with this stallion owner and stallion. If your mare is not in foal, do you want to give it another go? Or do you want to hang it up and try again next season with a different stallion? Do remember, even some of the BEST stallions on the market do not ship well. You just have to determine what is best for you and your mare.
Thank you so much for your help, it is giving me some things to investigate! I do wonder if it is an operation just starting in shipping semen that dosn't really know what they are doing and I am suffering for it. I recognise I am new to this and want to make sure that I understand what the contract means and entitles me to before I call. I don't want to be the unreasonable customer everyone has dealt with, just throwing a fit without having a clue. Where I believe that he has misrepresented his stallion is that he stated the stallion tested strong for shipping and now the shipments are arriving almost dead, from what I'm reading it dosn't sound like a mare has much of a chance at all conceiving off of a 10% motility dose. I don't see that as being my fault, unless it is something in shipping, which I will pursue and see if he can show with a sample kept there as you suggest. I'm just suspect after two arrive in pretty much the same condition. I wouldn't think shipping damage would produce consistant results.
The contract does state they are "not responsible for lost, delayed or damaged semen and makes no representation or warranties of any kind with respect to semen except that it is that of the stallion specified in the contract and that it has the stated sperm count and motility rate."
I would totally understand if the mare just isn't taking or strange, unexplicable things are happening then I'm pretty much out of luck, but if it is as simple as the stallion not shipping well... I would think that is on their end and they should provide recourse, esp when he was represented as testing good and strong for shipping, and make claim to motility rates in the contract. Is this a reasonable line of thought?
I went back to the website where I found him advertised and saw they are no longer offering shipped semen, only live cover. In a way that kind of confirms my thoughts that they are having a problem with his shipments, of course I can't be totally sure, it could be for other reasons. It just seems kind of suspicious.
As for the Friesians not shipping well, my vet and numerous people on the board here have mentioned it. Of course I never did before getting myself into this! }
Talk about getting a crash course in equine repro 101, huh? I'm sorry your having so much trouble. There are so many variables (and Jos can go over the specifics with you at some point) as to why a stallion does/does not ship well. The stallion you are attempting to breed to may very well have great count when collected on the farm...but have a big kill ratio when shipped. This could be due to things like: improper handling, temperature imbalances, differences in extenders, and he flat just doesn't ship well. It may be, in regards to motility, that the stallion owner/collector will only guarantee the sperm count at the time of collection...not delivery. The insert which is normally in the container that has the sperm counts etc on it, is at collection...and is used to verify and compare counts when received by the inseminator. If a poor quality shipment is received, and can be determined with accuracy(not with, uh, well it just doesn't look good)...that is the time to call the farm. This still leaves the mare owner hanging. With all the contracts I've had, most state that they will do there best to get a mare in foal. If they don't, the owner may have the option to transfer the breeding to the following year, and/or another stallion (just one ex.). Do understand, that this could be easily after 5-6 cycles of breeding. I have not had a contract implicitly guarantee the potency of a stallion, or semen quality.
What I have done in the past when inquiring about stallions, is to directly talk with the breeding manager. I normally ask about prior breeding years (if old enough), semen evaluations, ship semen quality, and conception rates. Also want to know if the manager is available for questions/consultation from the vet during the breeding year. Most farms are thrilled to be of help.
If you haven't spoken to the owner yet, I still encourage you to do so to see if ya'll can come to an understanding. All in all, the most "recourse" you are probably going to get is more semen. Unless the contract makes specific claims to his count on arrival, expectations of recourse are not on the high side. Unfortunately, all of this is part of the breeding industry. Toss out money like it's candy. Talk to the stallion owner...go over your concerns. There is no harm in this. If you can't get any help from him, request your breeding fee back (check your contract, sigh).
Worse comes to worse, swallow hard and start doing research for a new stallion. If your vet isn't a repro specialist, you may want to think about finding one. Best of luck, and let us know how things go.
Update... I have decided not to pursue rebreeding the mare if she dosn't take (I'll find out Friday but after doing the research I'm figuring getting the dose at <1% motility on her ovulation means there is no way she will take). I'm not going to risk paying more vet bills to recieve yet another batch of bad semen. I have put in a phone call to the guy on Monday but he has not returned my call, and never returned the last call to my vet when they called to tell him the second shipment was bad as well. I am holding the 2nd collection/ shipping fee and the equitaner until I speak with him and get his side of the story, but it is making me even more suspect that he will not return my call. I'm hoping holding the Equitaner will at least get him to call, I really hate to have to resort to that as I understand they are quite expensive. I'm more than happy to return it, but I at least want to talk to the guy as from everyones advice I have determined that he has not held up his end of the contract as he did state a specific amount of motile sperm that was not met, so I think he should refund my breeding fee. I put an e-mail in to the person who is representing him over the internet so hopefully that will result in a phone call. AAARGH! This is so frusterating. Thank you so much for your help, it is so great that everyone on here is so willing to help and share their knowledge!
Robin, "Bummer"..... How unsettling it is that they won't return your calls. This, is the first tip-off that you are not dealing with a reputable breeder. I am sorry about the frustration situation you are in. But, you know, your mare just might be in foal. Stranger things have happened!!!
Might also be a good idea to send these folks a certified letter...this way you KNOW if it has been received. This way, you have done your part, and it will be documented.
I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. P.s. don't know where you are located, but here in TX there are a few good fresian farms. Have heard good things about them, and actually seen produce from their stallions (by AI!).
Best of luck, Heather
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